If you want juggernaut items to be less abusable

Big Lincoln·Apr 10, 2017·2 votes·398 views

their value needs to be in things that would be wasteful or extraneous on other champions. making them melee only is really just a band-aid. An effective band-aid, for sure, but nothing else. at the moment are less 'juggernaut' items and more just items that are generally effective for everyone. which is fine for these items in particular, since at this point multiple groups of champions are balanced around using these items. (or at least the first 2 since nobody buys sterak)

items that would conditionally provide them what they lack in their kits (initiation, anti-disengage) would be considered extraneous on more mobile champions bar some exceptions, and completely undesirable on ranged champions because throwing themselves into the enemy team is the opposite of what they want to do, so it naturally limits who it's best on without needing to be explicitly restricted as such.

9 Comments

MissingKayoApr 10, 20174 votes

Juggernauts generally don't want or need attack speed. So what if something like an item passive called Heavy Hands or whatever for example limited attack speed to a set amount?

Like "Attack speed cannot increase above the base attack speed amount." This would take care of both buying attack speed items and any built in attack speed passive such as Jinx or Varus'.

Big LincolnApr 10, 20172 votes

actually, quite a few of them do Trundle Volibear Olaf Shyvana and next patch Udyr for sure

it's an interesting idea but it would be more to the benefit of Illaoi Darius Garen Yorick , who I feel already have plenty of itemization to choose from.

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

Ah, my bad. I forgot about them. On another note, the new Death's Dance is lovely.

Big LincolnApr 11, 20171 votes

It's not a bad idea, at all, though; if it were some sort of linear damage boost to AAs, scaling negatively with bonus attack speed, yeah it could work.

it'd be really interesting to see implemented although it would be very scary on champions who only AA once or twice in their burst combos like MonkeyKing , even if it hampered his DPS.

DD is definitely going to be worth buying on more juggs than illaoi. I already built it on Darius

MordepoolApr 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts generally don't want or need attack speed. So what if something like an item passive called Heavy Hands or whatever for example limited attack speed to a set amount?

Like "Attack speed cannot increase above the base attack speed amount." This would take care of both buying attack speed items and any built in attack speed passive such as Jinx or Varus'.

That's a really good idea to Balance items only meant for Juggernauts. Please make a thread

EbonyBladeJ88Apr 11, 20171 votes

I'm a Juggernaut-Main too. Forgive me if I make the wrong assumption, having seen many of your comments on the boards regarding Juggernaut champions, I assumed you were one as well. So here's my two bits on your post.

You bring up good points, but this part you said here...

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZMuEZ6Ih,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-04-10T23:38:13.509+0000)

items that would conditionally provide them what they lack in their kits (initiation, anti-disengage)

It kind of goes against what Juggernauts are supposed to be. In the post made by Riot with the Juggernaut Update, it said...

"Juggernauts. When you think brute force, these champions should come to mind: powerful, durable, immobile and melee."

Now pay attention to one particular word. "Immobile". That means they're supposed to slow to get around, or if you want the literal sense of the word, not move AT ALL. (Of Course, on the latter that's not really the case and thank goodness for that.)

So, they're not meant to have initiation-type abilities or items because it goes against what they are designed to be. On the subject of anti-disengage, many (Not all at this point in time that are considered Juggernauts) have anti-disengage built into their Kits. For Example:

Darius Has his E Illaoi Has the dash from her W Yorick Has his W-Wall to prevent escaping provided he places it right Garen Has the speed boost from his Q (Might not be the best example considering Garen's current state but it nonetheless exists)

Now, granted, these abilities may not always WORK as anti-disengage due to the kits of some of the more mobile champs these characters may face. It's even HARDER for the ones that are Juggernauts according to Riot's sub-class list that have NOT gotten any form of gameplay change to GIVE them anti-disengage.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

So, in MY mind at least, I think there MAY be another "Juggernaut Update" in the future (Can't say when, can't say HOW it will be, I don't work at Riot) that might introduce more diverse items that may fall in line with the suggestions you put forth here.

All in All, good post.

http://imgur.com/t/upvote_gif/v7RaQLO

Big LincolnApr 11, 20171 votes

when I say this I mean very conditionally would they get to cover those weaknesses.

when I think of an 'initiation' tool I take some inspiration from blink dagger, where you can't use it if you've taken damage or entered combat at all. so if this were in the game, you would need to either avoid damage if you're going straight in or flank. and we don't need to keep it as a blink, either; it could be very telegraphed, but you can't be stopped on the way in. so it has the clear counterplay of just tap them with any damage, and then they can't use it for the next couple seconds and have to either dedicate to running at you or back off and wait for another opportunity.

or in terms of anti-disengage, maybe an item that drastically slows yourself but makes you immune to displacements and knockups such as LeeSin ult or janna ult etc. divers won't want to slow themselves, marksmen DEFINITELY don't, but a juggernaut would be right at home as long as they're close enough to hit someone.

part of the issue with them imo is that they are balanced around being completely unable to start fights on their own terms. I think this lends to the issue of them being really overwhelming when they ARE in the range they need to be in to be effective, or the 'stat check' gameplay that Riot wants to move away from in the future.

The biggest part that makes Juggernauts appeal to me, and that I want to extend to their items, is that they're very telegraphed and obvious, and so it's fair that they're extremely punishing. that's the gameplay I love about Darius and Illaoi in particular.

EbonyBladeJ88Apr 11, 20171 votes

Ah, gotcha. I guess I didn't catch that vibe from the way the post was worded.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/80/8d/e7/808de71681cc932ce4d2e3e9352c8a3d.jpg