@Riot Will The Assassin Update Include New Items?

Meep Man·Aug 5, 2016·12 votes·5,441 views

I remember hearing when was announced that you guys wanted to make more "Assassin focused" items rather than general AD items. Is this going to be done in this class update?

48 Comments

RiotMeddlerAug 6, 20168 votes

Current plan is for some work on items for assassins. That hasn't been started yet though, so not sure whether that will mean new items or just changes to existing ones.

Michael SykesAug 6, 20161 votes

maybe even an ap assassin item?

RiotMeddlerAug 6, 20164 votes

Possible, but less likely. AP assassins are both a smaller group and one that's comparatively well served by existing itemization given the similarities between burst mage needs and AP assassin needs.

SnugglePuggle94Aug 6, 20161 votes

Can you make Duskblade melee only, like you said you would if ranged champs were abusing it too much? I'm getting tired of not only Zed abusing it but also ADCs who shouldn't even be building it in the first place.

Michael SykesAug 6, 20161 votes

I thought about some magic pen and ap specifically for ap assassins in addition to Sorcerer's Shoes, (Liandrys is only very good on mages) plus a good passive, but without making it broken on immobile mages (with a trade-off for them?)

The Yetii RiderAug 7, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Possible, but less likely. AP assassins are both a smaller group and one that's comparatively well served by existing itemization given the similarities between burst mage needs and AP assassin needs.

That's not even true, Meddler. I may not be an expert on balance but I know how to count...AP assassins include Ekko, Fizz, Akali, Katarina, Twisted Fate, Evelynn, Kassadin, and LeBlanc.

AD assassins include Shaco, Zed, Talon, Kha'Zix, and Rengar.

That's eight AP assassins to five AD assassins, excluding Ahri, Diana, and Nocturne because you seem to want to take them in other directions.

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20161 votes

Evelynn and Twisted Fate aren't assassins.

Flying BuntcakeAug 7, 20163 votes

Twisted fate has assassin-like tendencies.

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20162 votes

Then you may as well call any melee carry an "assassin".

Flying BuntcakeAug 8, 20161 votes

He borderlines as a burst mage. Not all melee carry champions can teleport halfway across the map to blow up a squishy target.

The Yetii RiderAug 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=00020000000000020000,timestamp=2016-08-07T12:51:44.518+0000)

Evelynn and Twisted Fate aren't assassins.

Evelynn is most certainly an assassin. She's even listed on the original post of champions that may be changed.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/Tnfw1WW6-next-class-update-the-assassins

Twisted Fate is not listed there, but that just means he's not up for any changes in this rework (probably because he's always good in the pro scene because of global pressure). He's still definitely an assassin.

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20161 votes

She's listed there because she WAS intended to be an assassin. She isn't an assassin for at least 2 years now, where people started building her nearly full tank with maybe one damage item.

Twisted Fate is less of an assassin, than Ahri is.

If you still want to argue with me about champions like TF being assassins, then you should redact your initial post, to include following champions: Irelia MasterYi Nidalee Pantheon Riven Twitch XinZhao And recount AD-to-AP difference between assassins.

The Yetii RiderAug 7, 20161 votes

Fine, fine. The newest subclass blog lists TF as a burst mage and Evelynn as a diver (lol)

If we're using the subclass blog http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Then we can remove Evelynn and Twisted Fate from the AP assassins, and add Nidalee. That still leaves 7 AP assassins and 5 AD, and Meddler said "AP assassins are a smaller group".

lolipopevelynnAug 7, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=00020000000000020000000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-07T17:35:32.739+0000)

Fine, fine. The newest subclass blog lists TF as a burst mage and Evelynn as a diver (lol)

If we're using the subclass blog http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Then we can remove Evelynn and Twisted Fate from the AP assassins, and add Nidalee. That still leaves 7 AP assassins and 5 AD, and Meddler said "AP assassins are a smaller group".

that list also lists jhin as a "hybrid burst mage"

honestly its trash and no one should follow or take it seriously.

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20161 votes

And GP is part Battle Mage, while Singed is "unique" despite fulfilling both Juggernaut and Battle Mage roles.

And shoving all ADCs into the same role, while their playstyles are varied enough to fill for 4 different categories at the very least.

This is what you get, when you try to force artificial labels, instead of doing a wiki-like list of what a champion can actually do.

Actually scratch that. They aren't even trying*, somebody did that list while taking a dump, the rest of Rioters mentioned in "agreeing on it" just took a glance and went with "Yeah".

*When asked about ADCs having the same label, that was the response:

just because they don't have unique labels doesn't mean we won't think of them as having very different functions

Bascially "this list means shit anyway, we won't bother".

Vistha KaiAug 7, 20161 votes

Gangplank is a battle mage and Singed is "unique" despite fullfilling all requirements for being part juggernaut part battle mage himself.

I mean, they consider Syndra as "burst mage" only, while 90% of the time of playing her, is dishing out constant damage and applying AoE CC.

Do you really think, I'll play along with Riot-made labels? Don't make me laugh.

The Yetii RiderAug 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=000200000000000200000001000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-07T18:14:27.002+0000)

Gangplank is a battle mage and Singed is "unique" despite fullfilling all requirements for being part juggernaut part battle mage himself.

I mean, they consider Syndra as "burst mage" only, while 90% of the time of playing her, is dishing out constant damage and applying AoE CC.

Do you really think, I'll play along with Riot-made labels? Don't make me laugh.

I'm not talking to YOU. I'm talking to Meddler. I said to Meddler that he was incorrect regarding the number of AP assassins vs AD assassins and you jumped in to that discussion.

So, am I going to use Riot's own list to discuss the number of AP assassins vs AD assassins with a Rioter? Yes. Yes I am.

lolipopevelynnAug 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=0002000000000002000000010000,timestamp=2016-08-07T16:49:49.077+0000)

She's listed there because she WAS intended to be an assassin. She isn't an assassin for at least 2 years now, where people started building her nearly full tank with maybe one damage item.

Twisted Fate is less of an assassin, than Ahri is.

If you still want to argue with me about champions like TF being assassins, then you should redact your initial post, to include following champions: And recount AD-to-AP difference between assassins.

TF certainly isnt an assassin, but eve is, nerfs just destroyed her identity because she was TOO effective at being an asassin, and they just left her in that state. basically think of it the same way as with old poppy. old poppy was always considered to be a tank/fighter, but her kit was so broken that people played her full AD or even full AP assassin, and she was able to get away with that because of her kit. so they nerfed the hell out of her, but people still played her assassiny despite her core identity being that of a tank/fighter. they fixed that with the rework.

its pretty much the same with eve. just because people play her like a brusier/tank does NOT mean she isnt an assassin.

MohawkBirdAug 7, 20161 votes

Well at least Twisted Fate is not.

SukishooAug 8, 20161 votes

Twisted Fate is not an Assassin. He's meant to be a Mage, an odd card throwing mage but not an Assassin.

You also forgot a MAJOR AD assassin, his name is Master Yi XD

HäxelAug 12, 20161 votes

Maybe a bit alte but I want comment this. Tf is not an assassin. Assassins are supposed to go in fast kill a target and go out. Tf pokes from the range of a fight, maybe goes with ghost halfway in. He can catchup with his ult but never starts a fght with it cause it takes to long, he cant escape after that and can be easily catched by any ability like a morg stun. Nida is more of a hybrid with an artilerypoke ability on q and a diving tool on her w cougar form. Eve and Ekko are more like divers considering their builds are even good with tankitems. they dont burst you down, ekko stays on you and gows back with ult if he drops low. Eve and akali can be build hybrid. while you can choose on eve ad or ap you go like hextechgunblade on akali (akali and fizz tankbuild cause they are divers possible too). And than last considering their diffrent playstyles and needs for builds like kassadin neads much mana, lb still some, fizz less, akali eneryg and kata nothing, its hard to make an ap assassinitem that suits all and is good for all of their earlys. even duskblade is not so good for all ad assassins, the only good is the armorpen. like rengar and kha how they are at the moment kill their targets before duskblade reacts. But all Ad Assassins build nearly the same, most time armorpen and lifesteal, shaco and actual rengar going for crit too(or rengar offtank trinity and titanic). And than we have fizz and kassadin (kass with roa too) with lichbane, akali gunblade, kata ludens/mejas, lb like no diffrence to a normal ab build. I said half of them needs mana. Considering an item that all could use beside lb would be an magicpen/cdr item which gives no mana, but what shoud it do? jsut a passive item? an ap version of duskblade? Than it would take same problems that other champs can use it too, like duskblade actual jhin and mf can build it and the ap/cdr/pen item nothing would stop players to build that on kennen, vlad, heimerdinger even. The Ap assasins have diffrent builds and are maybe equal to count with ad assasins, but ad divers are more likly with at least the same first 1-3 items like divers than ap assins with ap divers, which are together with ap burst, poke and support in all items (rabbadons/zhonyas) in msot items. Ad champs take crit on adc, armorpen and lifesteal on assasins, one of that and tank on bruisers or attackspeed(trinity), offtankitems(BC,Titanic,Steraks). So ad assassins are rly an own class with own items, hard to say that on ap assassins.

The Yetii RiderAug 12, 20161 votes

Dude, paragraphs. Seriously.

Evelynn may currently play like a diver, but Riot is planning to completely rework her.

Ekko is a skirmisher, he's intended to deliver a lot of damage over time with his passive. Ekko building tank and being successful was never intended on Riot's part and thus is not relevant for a discussion on his rework.

AP assassins need some stat to bind that mages can't use, I agree. I think Riot needs to create a totally new stat for them to try and differentiate them so their items don't affect mage balance.

HäxelAug 15, 20161 votes

I try my best.

Yea i dont know if they rly need a new stat. I think mana/manareg more of an stat already assassins cant rly use cause not needed (vlad and kennen dont use it either i know) and for this i seperate melee and range assassins. Lb building Mr/Roa and all other items like a normal mage, maybe more tending to build ludens as rylais, is i think ok.

Assassins and Mages in the Jungel like Fiddlesticks(kinda assassin), Elise and Nidalee are building not direct manaitems for manaproblems, they build runic ecos and a lichbane maybe and dont need more to go through the jungel, the lichbane is like main item for melee assassins cause they work even most time much with autoattacks(except kata) while Lb even with the range advantage is all about short mageability combos.

And the Melee assassins outside of going into jungel like Katarina(resourceless), Diana, Fizz and Ekko Mid dont need rly manaitems beside the lich. A Morellos can be build by playing agaisnt champs like vladimir or mundo, so you get 20 cdr and a strong passive in exchange for the mana while in normal matchups the with his passive is ok, but it gives better choises cause like i said, you dont rly need the mana. Nashors could be build on Diana for example, but she can be palyed without it too adn the other ones dont need it.

Only actual Problem is Kassadin who rly needs actual rly much mana but autoattacks too, like he builds Roa and Lichbane. He needs more mana as some mages like Heimer, but still has to work with his basics cause one ability is even an empowered basicattack. But im not here to discuss if Kassadin needs to be changed and how.

So Melee Assassins in the past got like nearly no Cdr cause it was combined with Manaregitems. Now it gives Cdr in Defensiveitems and even if Riot has maybe already thrown to much cdr on items, i see still Assassins in a Problem: They can maybe give Assassisn shorter Cds to exchange the trait that they normaly cant stuck as well cdr. But it ends with People still building Cdr to be even more effective with Abilitys, so Assassins like fizz can jump all time with qe and Adc is dead. But without building morrelos you need to build as an assassin defense items, which is a twist cause as an assassin, you normaly want or should as the description of an assassin just build damage. And with Mages who can build Morellos and either Zhonyas or Abysal for 30Cd while an Assassin needs 3 out of Zhonyas, Abysal, Lichbane and Protobelt for being equal, the mages win with one item more for actualy solo dmg.

So what would be good is an Ap Item what Mages dont rly want and dont gives Mana, but gives Cdr and much Ap like a Morellos. I think rly a good start would be a Morellos with same passive, they share it so that does not stack, and Assassins dont need to buy Morellos against Vlad/Soraka/Mundo while mages dont build it cause they go normaly Morellos. And that Mages building Roa or Tear, while tear is like everytime build together with a catalystitem, dont se item too, it could be have the same passive from the ane as the catalys without be build out of one (cause assasisn as mentioned dont want the mana). I said i want a full dmg Item so Health would be maybe bad, penetration would be better. But if the Passive would be half of the catalystitempassive like "everytime you spent mana you regenerate 20% of mana spent as health" without the other part getting Mana while being attacked, roa users cant use that item either.

If other items are needed than it would be maybe rly an ap duskblade. Assassins as mentioned use basic attacks and for procing a Duskblade it would work after some basicattacks.

The Yetii RiderAug 15, 20161 votes

Riot has stated they don't want CDR to be easily accessible. They want you to pay a cost in the item for getting CDR.

AP assassins should be bound to something, they can't just share the item pool that mages have.

AeszarckAug 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=00020000000000020002000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-15T04:30:36.639+0000)

Riot has stated they don't want CDR to be easily accessible. They want you to pay a cost in the item for getting CDR.

AP assassins should be bound to something, they can't just share the item pool that mages have.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/F2Xpvgz5-nunu-is-trash-and-needs-a-reowrk Just in case you haven't read this yet.

The Yetii RiderAug 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/F2Xpvgz5-nunu-is-trash-and-needs-a-reowrk Just in case you haven't read this yet.

Thanks. Down voted and explained the glory of Nunu.

ÂzaIeaAug 7, 20161 votes

I believe AP Assassins may need better ways of acquiring flat magic pen, considering the only ways are:

Sorcerer's Shoes- Limiting AP Assassins to building just them.
Abyssal Scepter- Giving the most pen (or resist reduce) of any item, but only truly (or efficiently) usable if magic resist is needed. And depending by the Assassin's play-style, or skill at timing and finding openings it may not be needed.
Haunting Guise- Liandri's Torment- Not quite a good passive for an Assassin most of the times.

This is especially true for Katarina, as unlike the other Assassins, she has low scalings, and requires magic pen to be effective.

hopeful4Aug 6, 20161 votes

Is it a possibility that assassins will be given an item with impactful and unique active, like Protobelt (i dont mean a Protobelt for assassins, just a new item which you build mainly for its active)

Meep ManAug 6, 20161 votes

Thank you for responding.

SlashStrikerAug 6, 20162 votes

topics like these will make ADC useless again

Critmaster GarenAug 6, 20166 votes

{quoted}

topics like these will make ADC useless again

how long have you been playing this game? because ive played before season 1, and in all this time adc have never been not picked into every single team.

while other types of champions actually vanished for entire seasons.

why are adc mains such drama queens? just because youre not the strongest at killing champions and cant 1v1 everyone because the clock hit 30 minutes, doesnt mean youre still not the best at taking turrets and the fastest at taking drakes and baron.

adc were never at any point useless.

SlashStrikerAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZK8QaqNu,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-06T12:00:33.620+0000)

how long have you been playing this game? because ive played before season 1, and in all this time adc have never been not picked into every single team.

while other types of champions actually vanished for entire seasons.

why are adc mains such drama queens? just because youre not the strongest at killing champions and cant 1v1 everyone because the clock hit 30 minutes, doesnt mean youre still not the best at taking turrets and the fastest at taking drakes and baron.

adc were never at any point useless.

Do you remember this guy MasterYi summoner 6 summoner 3 at bot lane? No? Good. You better not

MicbranAug 6, 20161 votes

You don't need an ADC on your team to win anyways.

DænariusKhølerinAug 5, 20161 votes

I think Duskblade will be made a melee-only item soon enough.

ApocalypsicAug 5, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I think Duskblade will be made a melee-only item soon enough.

You can thank Jhin and MF for that. And occasionaly some others but those are the biggest offenders.

DænariusKhølerinAug 5, 20161 votes

Yes. It is also built on Quinn sometimes.

DCYOUNG888Aug 6, 20161 votes

Let's not forget Lucian building Youmuu's and Black Cleaver.

RiotMeddlerAug 6, 20164 votes

We've been talking about that recently. Some of the issue is Ghostblade rather than Duskblade though. I suspect we'll end up making changes to one or both of them, trying to figure out whether to do so now and/or in the pre-season though (getting to the time of the year where we try to minimize change a bit more than usual).

Pierce The VealAug 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

We've been talking about that recently. Some of the issue is Ghostblade rather than Duskblade though. I suspect we'll end up making changes to one or both of them, trying to figure out whether to do so now and/or in the pre-season though (getting to the time of the year where we try to minimize change a bit more than usual).

Could we possibly revert the changes to ghostblades active? You know, drop its cd from 60 back to 45, but make the active last 4 seconds for ranged instead of 6.

Evelyn EndwiseAug 6, 20161 votes

Kinda curious, but generally you guys don't really go for melee/ranged only restrictions on items, any particular reason for that? (I think there's been a few items in LoL's history that have been abused by a Fighter/Assassin/Marksman when intended for the other.)

ModAcademy KaynAug 7, 20161 votes

You're right. Let's make Ghostblade melee only. Kappa

EDIT: Actually I have an interesting idea. What if Ghostblade's penetration stat only worked on Abilities? This would keep it nice for Assassins, while lowering those ADC's who use it duel potential.

GuardAbuseAug 7, 20161 votes

I was thinking something along those lines. Either that or half the effectiveness for ranged champs.

AMYS GRAVEAug 7, 20161 votes

Look at flat armor pen.

CronoveyAug 8, 20161 votes

Would really just love to see the active on Ghostblade go back to a more melee focused activation again. One of the biggest reasons to buy a Ghostblade (and Scimitar) was for the active movement speed to stick to your targets better. It made playing champions like Garen much more bearable. Now that ranged are making use of it so frequently, it's basically relegated some champions to never seeing play because of how mobile ranged champions have become with the constant move speed changing abilities (Sivir speed, Ashe kiting, Jhin passive) and dashes (Lucian, Ezreal) it would be nice to see SOME of that removed to keep them from basically being untouchable when played very well.

LoopKatAug 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We've been talking about that recently. Some of the issue is Ghostblade rather than Duskblade though. I suspect we'll end up making changes to one or both of them, trying to figure out whether to do so now and/or in the pre-season though (getting to the time of the year where we try to minimize change a bit more than usual).

Why not do the same thing that you did to armor and crit items, that is, give each AD assassin item the same stat-line but maybe each item's unique effects desirable in different situations? Everybody bought Deadman's Plate until Sunfire and Randuin's were put on-par with it. Everybody bought Statikk Shiv until Phantom Dancer and Runaan's were put on-par with it and Rapid Firecannon was introduced.

So, for Ghostblade, Duskblade, and Maw, give them each 20 flat penetration (unique named passive, no longer stacks) and roughly 65 AD (change as needed).

-Ghostblade would be for assassins that want to cast lots of spells and need help getting to their target (CDR + move speed + attack speed) -Duskblade would be for assassins that can already get to a target, but maybe need some extra help sealing the deal (execute passive) -Maw would be for assassins who still need to get the job done, but are having trouble surviving against their (likely) AP mid-lane counterpart (situational sustain + defense)

Obviously, not every item group needs to be 'uniquely equal', but I would certainly prefer my over changes over the current "AD assassins buy every super-gold-efficient AD items and deal arse-loads of damage".

FishtacoAug 6, 20163 votes

NOOOOOOO MY ASSASSIN BARD BUILD ;-; Bard item 3147

BloodyTomponAug 7, 20161 votes

RIP in peace

zlumpyAug 7, 20161 votes

Surprised there isn't an ap %pen item in game now that I think about it.
30%mr pen 5%Ms 35 bonus AP Kills on champs give passive magic pulse that works like hydra but on spell cast. Stacks 3 times stacks lost on death. Each stack adds 25 magic dmg plus 2% of current ap (so 3 stacks is 6%). Cost something like 2800 g? (I'm not great at the gold cost break down of items)

This makes it a better choice for the ap assasin over long range nuker due to the range ap assassins tend to opperate. Maybe it would need a cap on activates like in generates a certain number of charges out of combat so someone like Evelyn or Katarina couldn't over spam it.