The Reason Why No Vayne Changes

Meep Man·Sep 15, 2015·59 votes·4,359 views

Riot has stated they are adding an ADC Item Pass soon, similar to the Bruiser and Mage item passes. Therefore, they are likely waiting to see how it will affect Vayne before doing anything. Why nerf Vayne one patch when the next patch item changes could nerf her again? Same goes for why Twitch is only getting light buffs.

EDIT: To everyone talking about how they nerfed a champion before nerfing their items in the past, notice that was the past. They might have actually LEARNED now.

72 Comments

KONO RUBICK DASep 15, 201531 votes

Maokai Sejuani Gragas Shen

Talon Vladimir

Dextix LTSep 15, 20153 votes

Indeed. Why nerf champions if items are nerfed.... Oh wait....

Meep ManSep 15, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG0HERfj,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-09-15T15:24:58.307+0000)

Indeed. Why nerf champions if items are nerfed.... Oh wait....

That's not the point. I'm saying if her items are being nerfed, she might not be a problem anymore. She might never get any direct nerf to her, but still fade away in the end.

Dextix LTSep 15, 201517 votes

Isnt it? Then why is vayne getting special treatment on this?

"Lets wait and see if item changes nerf vayne"

Where was this waiting with cinderhulk?? Where was this waiting with tank items???

THERE WASNT!

Why is vayne getting special fcking treatment on this when everyone else had to be fcked and riot didnt give any fcks about upcoming item changes. Huh?

AnidanSep 15, 20151 votes

Because human beings are innately biased. This isn't even the first time bias has been passed around at Riot, nor will it be the last. Hell, this isn't even the first time a champion has skated by un-nerfed with an item nerf being pending.

Though, I am now curious: why are you censoring 'fuck' when the mods don't seem to give a fuck?

Sinister MarsSep 16, 20151 votes

Champion bias. Dreadful. I'd like to see Riot just nerf all the current top tier champions and buff all of the unplayeds. Riot wants Champion diversity? Let's see 'em prove. A game without any of the overpowered staples would be nice.

TheXtractorSep 16, 20151 votes

What would that exactly help?

If you do that all you do is swap around the underplayed champions with the top tier champions. Meaning that a new set of champions that before were underplayed are now considered top tier and will be played ALL THE TIME. Then after a month or two people will start whining about how X Y Z are top tier champions that are never nerfed.

Sinister MarsSep 16, 20151 votes

It would help the monotony. Cycle the champs every three months. Not actually advocating this, but some champs stay on top for way too long without an answer.

TheXtractorSep 16, 20151 votes

Well Riot does (or used to im not sure) to this kind of balancing where they would just poke and peel at strong/weak champions and the meta would shift from time to time. In theory this is already happening because with cinderhulk a lot of not-so popular champions got a lot more popular, then they got nerfed lel and sated came out and different champions rose up again.

So i think this is just another cycle. Vayne hasn't been a top tier pick for a very very long time. She's been in bad spots and also in reasonally-balanced spots. She hasnt gotten any hard buffs or nerfs in recent times that would put her on top of the tiers. Its just that in this balance cycle the meta favors her more than before. I dont think this would justify direct nerfs to vayne. Because probably with a new balance cycle and some meta shifts she will automatically fall down in the tiers again.

Dextix LTSep 16, 20151 votes

No, this is not a natural cycle. Natural meta cycles happen usually when new items are indroduced. After the introduction of cinderhulk meta naturally changed into a tank one because of how good the item was.

It would have been ok if the item itself had been tweaked at that moment.

However, this was not the case. Most of the cinderhulk users (Sejuani is the best example) got nerfed because of how strong the item was. Then the item itself was nerfed, but the champion nerfs werent reverted.

This wasnt a natural change in meta. Some tanks were straight up gutted with 2 waves of nerfs (cindehulk and theirs).

When sated came, meta changed again, however, even after meta changes you can usually still see the lingering effects of the older metas, some champions which still do realy good. However, in this case it didnt happen. Like i said before the double waves of nefs fcked up a lot of champions.

This is a new cycle, but its definetly not natural one, it was tampered with, even before it came out.

Also, while vayne wasnt the "best" adc for the job all this time. She was still played a lot and reliably. Unlike some, she actually saw LCS and other championship plays. Champions like varus were invisible until this new adc mid meta.

Also, while she didnt really receive buffs to her, she isnt in a vaccum, she is in a champion community. Cinderhulk meta is over, that should logically mean that she should not be in the meta anymore? Right?

But lets look the other way. After the cinderhulk meta which made her popular, people found out that she is just as good if not better against squishies than tanks. Something simmilar happened to corki and trinity builds which were overlooked for a long time.

Then, we have some other adcs being nerfed and at the same time, botrk, gets buffed on its passive part which is really important for vayne.

Vayne should have fallen out of grace after cindehulk meta if you think logically. Yet she became even more popular after the meta she logically should have been best in. There is a problem here. A tank buster, is one of the best adcs in a squishy sated meta.

EDIT: In the end, all i want from riot, is consistency. If they do something like this with vayne, they should do the same with cindehulk disabled veterans. If they buff someone like lee for not seeing so much average play, why are they nerfing someone like azir for the same reason?

I want changes, to make logical sense, and them to be consistent with every change.

TheXtractorSep 17, 20151 votes

disclaimer. Vayne is my favorite champion in the game and I played her a lot ever since her release, just not recently because i dont play as much adc anymore in the last months

However, this was not the case. Most of the cinderhulk users (Sejuani is the best example) got nerfed because of how strong the item was. Then the item itself was nerfed, but the champion nerfs werent reverted.

Agree this is something that rito does OVER AND OVER AND THEY SHOULD STOP DOING IT.. This happend with Talon with the black cleaver in pre-season. Happend with Warwick with devourer and then it happend to tanks with cinderhulk (but lol lets not nerf gragas the #1 pick at all).

Riot balancing sucks when it comes to dealing with those kind of things. They overnerf things too quickly without compensating back.

Vayne should have fallen out of grace after cindehulk meta if you think logically. Yet she became even more popular after the meta she logically should have been best in. There is a problem here. A tank buster, is one of the best adcs in a squishy sated meta.

Maybe but even after 'cinderhulk meta' with sated devourer tanks are still like a big big big portion of teamcomps. Its not like every game you see 2 sated junglers. odd are higher than you'll get 2 cinderhulk junglers. Or at least a team with a cinderhulk jungler and then also a tanky top. Most top meta champs are tanks at the moment. So its naturally that Vayne is popular now compared to when we had a hard assassin mid (zed/ap fizz etc) and a assassin jungler (lee/kha zix/nocturne) while now we have tanks and mostly mages in the mid lane.

What they should do is not nerf Vayne if they also going to nerf the items. Just like how they shouldn't have nerfed Talon when they nerfed Black Cleaver, and shouldn't have nerfed WW when they nerfed devourer. And I think those champions deserves buffs.

And its not like Vayne compared to other ADCarries is too strong. She is in the power balance of all adc's together still around the same spot. Its the combination of supports & meta that makes her better than before.

What im trying to say is that she is popular because of a reaction. Not because of her innate overpowered-ness. Whereas other champions define the meta just because they are extremely strong. Vayne is more a counter to that. She has clear tradeoffs and skill-ceilings with clear counters and weaknesses and clear strengths and clear strategies on how to play with and against her. Like almost all ADC's really. I dont think any adc's need any nerfs at the moment. Maybe some of the lower tier adc's can use buffs but even those (like MF) work pretty well in non-competetive environments.

Sinister MarsSep 16, 20151 votes

So true.

EnosetcSep 15, 201518 votes

doesn't mean they can't tone down a champion that's been too strong for a couple months now

trist was nerfed directly before being butchered by a rework last season

Meep ManSep 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

doesn't mean they can't tone down a champion that's been too strong for a couple months now

trist was nerfed directly before being butchered by a rework last season

That's kind of funny actually since after the buffs she is now a top tier pick ADC. And before the rework she was actually even worse than Vayne was now.

SaiannaSep 15, 20155 votes

Wtf?

What buffs?

Before rework Trist was better than what we have now.

Stop spewing nonsense.

Meep ManSep 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Wtf?

What buffs?

Before rework Trist was better than what we have now.

Stop spewing nonsense.

The Q and E buffs to make them reduce the cool downs. Those were added post-rework. Pre-rework Tristana was nearly way too good thats the point. The current one is actually pretty balanced, but is overshadowed by Vayne and such in pubs.

SaiannaSep 15, 20151 votes

The Q and E buffs to make them reduce the cool downs.

Unecessary mechanic just to give her little bit of something that isn't all that important.

That what it is.

Meep ManSep 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Unecessary mechanic just to give her little bit of something that isn't all that important.

That what it is.

Her Q and E are pretty important in my opinion. Her Q is what makes her such a good carry since she can build high damage items quick without worrying about attack speed too much.

ShaabanglyySep 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

doesn't mean they can't tone down a champion that's been too strong for a couple months now

trist was nerfed directly before being butchered by a rework last season

A fact that I am sure you and many others complained about. So why would you want them to do it again?

EnosetcSep 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

A fact that I am sure you and many others complained about. So why would you want them to do it again?

because it's better to have a champion be too weak and buffed back into viability after being given a more healthy kit than it is to leave a champion too strong when their kit is unhealthy

ShaabanglyySep 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

because it's better to have a champion be too weak and buffed back into viability after being given a more healthy kit than it is to leave a champion too strong when their kit is unhealthy

Again let the record show, that there have been virtually NO buffs to Vayne to speak of. This happens with her all the time where he counters are nerfed along with the other viable marksmen. Then she is the go to with NO changes and everyone all of sudden goes on a rage about her toxic kit that somehow wasn't toxic when everyone was complaining about everthing else being toxic.

EnosetcSep 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Again let the record show, that there have been virtually NO buffs to Vayne to speak of. This happens with her all the time where he counters are nerfed along with the other viable marksmen. Then she is the go to with NO changes and everyone all of sudden goes on a rage about her toxic kit that somehow wasn't toxic when everyone was complaining about everthing else being toxic.

her kit has always been toxic. she hasn't always been popular though, so naturally there's no reason to complain about her. her main item being buffed is a significant buff to vayne in spite of it being indirect.

the fact of the matter is that with her current kit, vayne cannot allowed to be anything more than a "decent" pick because she hard counters an entire class of champions while (in her current state) being able to outduel most ADCs with less gold dumped into her stats

DeynaTaggerungSep 15, 201511 votes

butchered rework? It basically just made her a much more interesting champ, she's also still quite strong.

EnosetcSep 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

butchered rework? It basically just made her a much more interesting champ, she's also still quite strong.

i'm talking about how the rework left her incredibly weak for a long time because they nerfed her across the board just for the sake of giving her an AD-scaling E

doubleguacSep 16, 20155 votes

I don't think she was incredibly weak. She might have been a tad undertuned, but I think the reason her play fell off is that Riot moved her into a fundamentally different niche, and players were slow to adapt.

Pre-rework trist was a hyper-scaling ADC, who had a weak mid game, but ended up being stronger and safer than almost any other marksman late game.

The rework changed her into a siege specialist. She's not a hyper-carry anymore, in the sense that she doesn't deal quite as much DPS to champions late game. If you want raw dps against champions, there are better champions. But she's better than she ever was (and better than any other ADC) at a specific task--sieging towers mid-late game.

Captain AishiSep 15, 201517 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG0HERfj,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-15T12:34:39.828+0000) Why nerf Vayne one patch when the next patch item changes could nerf her again?

Warwick

Meep ManSep 15, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Captain Aishi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG0HERfj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-15T13:12:20.749+0000)

That was the same patch.

TenSlashTenSep 15, 20153 votes

so 2x the nerfs in same patch. Thats even worse.

Then again warwick's kit is toxic as fuck so meh. It would be like poppy being viable.

Tentacle LoveSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

so 2x the nerfs in same patch. Thats even worse.

Then again warwick's kit is toxic as fuck so meh. It would be like poppy being viable.

It wasn't two nerfs, it was three. Warwick got nerfed. The jungle knife got nerfed. The jungling enchantment got nerfed.

three. not two, not four. five is right out.

(and just to clarify further, this ended Warwick's 90% banrate and 100% surrender-if-you-see-him-on-the-other-team-rate)

As painful as it may be, it was THAT BAD.

Blue KaoziSep 15, 20156 votes

Nah that solution is far to reasonable to be true.

Honestly tho, most of the community is impatient and she has been like this for a long time. I would have liked a nerf last patch and we can think about buffing her when the item rework actually happens in a month or two.

Sakura MirageSep 15, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Kaozi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG0HERfj,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-15T12:39:07.926+0000)

Nah that solution is far to reasonable to be true.

Honestly tho, most of the community is impatient and she has been like this for a long time. I would have liked a nerf last patch and we can think about buffing her when the item rework actually happens in a month or two.

She has been in a state of being strong since botrk buffs so like 2 months lol.

MyrddinSep 15, 20153 votes

there is no real reason to nerf her, she just fits in the meta well at the moment, the meta will shift.

Tails DollSep 15, 20152 votes

The meta has shifted two/three times and she is still strong.

DurzakaSep 15, 20152 votes

Because worlds are about to happen? And we dont want another champion being 100% pick/ban like Alistar was last year.

PartholonianSep 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because worlds are about to happen? And we dont want another champion being 100% pick/ban like Alistar was last year.

Isn't Kalista already that way in competitive? And what makes you trust that Vayne won't be? (Although it would be pretty cool if Draven caught on as a counterpick.)

IcyPepperSep 15, 20152 votes

EDIT: To everyone talking about how they nerfed a champion before nerfing their items in the past, notice that was the past. They might have actually LEARNED now.

Still waiting on the nerf reverts on some champions, though.

Poor Sejuani, who only has a 2.77% pick rate. Nerfed at the beginning of the tank meta, forgotten at the end.

Mike17032Sep 16, 20152 votes

I think the BoRK going just too well with her kit is the problem and not Vayne herself. She has not seen any changes in ages.

I think sustain is where the BoRk should take it's hit. If you want that as an ADC, build the BT. Then it's a better choice that you can make.

A larger problem to pin down and solve is that other ADCs are mostly just bad right now, and the lane bullies that kept a Vayne down in the past are just not played. She is popular not just because she is good, but also because she is fun to play while a lot of the others are not anymore.

Being zeroed out with no counter play is not fun, and that's the life of many ADCs that don't have self peel.

CrazedPorcupineSep 16, 20151 votes

Vayne did get her AS/level buffed from like 2% up to 4%, which is a HUGE buff. Reduce her AS/Lvl down to 3% and she'd be fine.

FantasySniperSep 16, 20151 votes

IDK, got nerfed before his changes... but then again, Vayne is not as bad as Kassadin was... I think we should just be glad she isn't Kassadin.

And before anyone tries to say that Vayne is just as bad as Kass, she doesn't have anywhere near a 90% ban rate.

Jesus Died 4 YouSep 16, 20151 votes

Hopefully this is the death of item 3153 That item is way too good. Everyone buys it, hell, I buy it on Shen.

For CarthageSep 16, 20151 votes

I wouldn't say they learned.

Learning would be nerfing the champ in the meantime while they investigate the item changes and then once they change the items, just revert the fricking nerfs.

Recently, I've only seen one nerf reverted: Shen's MR scaling from years ago. In case you want a track record on their policy of fixing when they fucked up.

PerishSoftlySep 16, 20151 votes

Nocturne Darkness Intensifies

Phoenix Kotori Sep 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZG0HERfj,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-09-15T12:34:39.828+0000)

Riot has stated they are adding an ADC Item Pass soon, similar to the Bruiser and Mage item passes. Therefore, they are likely waiting to see how it will affect Vayne before doing anything. Why nerf Vayne one patch when the next patch item changes could nerf her again? Same goes for why Twitch is only getting light buffs.

EDIT: To everyone talking about how they nerfed a champion before nerfing their items in the past, notice that was the past. They might have actually LEARNED now.

This logic is awful.

Because it's the goddamn worlds patch, they nerfed lulu cause of her rising popularity and success for in competitive.

Meanwhile Vayne being rising pretty similarly and gets ignored and changes coming or not that's fucking stupid to leave her broken until the preseason, riot is bias as hell.

ElBoobSep 16, 20151 votes

Riot never learned ctrl+Z. Reverting nerfs just isn't in the company tool box.

Xela SyabSep 16, 20151 votes

This would only be legit if they were removing/reworking BORK and Zerks if they were twitch still needs more buffs. Anything else they are changing still justifies nerfs for a disengage high scaling true damage adc heck a bandaid nerf like more mana on her abilities would be sufficient.

BeatzBoyFTWSep 16, 20151 votes

Thresh isn't an ADC & has quite a high winrates during LCS, why not nerf him?

63536895_DELSep 16, 20151 votes

Its not like Vayne's actual kit is toxic or anything, nooooo couldn't be. Percent max hp true damage and items are the problem..............SEEMS LEGIT.

Sinister MarsSep 16, 20151 votes

That seems lazy.

IAMS4T4NSep 16, 20151 votes

lol even ap xin zhao got a nerf before sated devourer was released

KeyoshiSep 16, 20151 votes

Only devour vayne got nerfed, Bork still didn't get the nerf it needed to make her not strong. Did attackspeed get nerfed? did she have her true damage toned down? no, point is, no items that she actually used in her core build got nerfed.