I feel Zed is not a problem but the whole concept of lethality and how the game revolves around it.

Craft Zeppelin··45 votes·14,816 views

We may or may not had this discussion before, but in the case you did not know. Zed's kit now currently is in now 2 spots.

  1. You thrive because you bought cost efficient lethality items against a person who bought lost chapter and you kick them in the teeth.
  2. You cannot since the enemy has a anti-zed rune page with 2 armor shards and bought seekers AND tabis. (And since you are Zed mid, you are like 3 AD team comp. This is a totally valid buildpath.)

So, lethality. It gains more armorpen if the target has lower levels than you. And is balanced solely through that math. With easy thinking, you will see that this stat heavily focuses on ganking that low level ADC. But if you are forced to fight even a moderately tanky enemy 1v1. Things starts to get out of hand because the phenomenon below comes into effect ALL AT ONCE.

  1. Your lethality stats are negated by armor.
  2. Lethality items for the sake of balance has only 55 AD and you are not a DPS.
  3. Your cannot snowball off them since you are even on levels.
  4. Your enemy bought 2 amp tomes so you are in the risk of being trolled because you cannot find out if they are going armguard or lost chapter.

So to avoid this situation.

  1. You buy hexdrinkers and get nullifying orb.
  2. You get a even standing on mages because you cannot kill each other.
  3. It becomes a strategic push/roam match. But you on the disadvantage since you are melee.

I strongly believe lethality is only good for "cheesing" and I think it is bad for the game if cheesing is reliable, or your pick is ditched by the math of the game because you can't pull off the cheese. It creates a situation not fun for both sides. Even in the case for other lanes, such as lethality MF. You guys have probabaly seen duskblade tipped MF bounces that rips off like 70% hp of a carry. How is this fun?

91 Comments

Colte18 votes

indeed zed isn't the problem, duskblade of draktharr is the only reason i ban zed.

Craft Zeppelin7 votes

{quoted}

indeed zed isn't the problem, duskblade of draktharr is the only reason i ban zed.

I totally agree. A set amount of champions that are only viable because their enemy cannot do elementary level mathematics is just...plain awful. I know people follow "strong build paths" but IF people start buying armguards and see how the TRUE winrates against Zed's are. We can probably see through this whole lethality issue and fix this damn game.

item 3147 TLDR: What the flying fuck is this item. It is DFG.

Eldritchpal9 votes

Zed never was a "problem" in the first place, people just arent careful enough while Zed is around so he gets fed and bursts all squishies on your Team, Zed is however by design more appealing to people who want to show off their skill even if you dont need very good mechanics for Zed, so he gets played more often, for example Talon, or Kha'zix are also Assassins which are really hard to stop once they're already ahead and snowballing

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

Zed never was a "problem" in the first place, people just arent careful enough while Zed is around so he gets fed and bursts all squishies on your Team, Zed is however by design more appealing to people who want to show off their skill even if you dont need very good mechanics for Zed, so he gets played more often, for example Talon, or Kha'zix are also Assassins which are really hard to stop once they're already ahead and snowballing

Yes, we all heard it. If you are good at Zed, you can get more easy wins as Talon. This is a true statement and pretty much a fact.

SSW Talon4 votes

It isn't true because you need 2 different skill sets to play Talon and Zed and people perpetuating this have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. Talon and Zed aren't similar at all outside of both being AD assassins who build lethality.

Talon and Kha are more similar for crying out loud.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Disagree though. Talon is a more braindead Zed when it comes to landing his damage. Only thing harder is his E CDs.

LeBlanc Rose2 votes

But landing his damage is the only thing talon is easier with. Farming: Zed has passive for last hits and q for ranged farming. Talon has a melee q that costs mana. Teamfighting: Just ult enemy adc, kill them and get out. Talon has to optimise placement of w and r, while getting as many passive procs as he can. Roaming: Not much vs E placement

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Talon isn't nearly as telegraphed in a teamfight.

Salron9 votes

Lethality scales with YOUR levels Not the enemies

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Right. He worded it weird as hell, but it's kind of the same thing?

Nyarlathοtep6 votes

You cannot since the enemy has a anti-zed rune page with 2 armor shards and bought seekers AND tabis

Mages can invest in tabis and still remain a dmg threat?

Craft Zeppelin5 votes

{quoted}

Mages can invest in tabis and still remain a dmg threat?

Yes they sure can. Sorc boots are indeed a strong damage option, but if you have cc and the advantage of enemy control on your side what can they do?

Nyarlathοtep5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-04-20T10:08:24.128+0000)

Yes they sure can. Sorc boots are indeed a strong damage option, but if you have cc and the advantage of enemy control on your side what can they do?

Not every mage has strong hard cc. And what control exactly? No cc or dmg no control or zone.

LTK KoRo3 votes

mages without strong cc have either strong damage or strong waveclear, any of these is good enough to keep assassins at bay and be relevant in the game without being fed.

Sir Saltarin4 votes

Finally I can upvote the anti mage propaganda again

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-20T15:40:00.919+0000)

Finally I can upvote the anti mage propaganda again

There should be no question that mages are strong. Sure their itemization is shitty but there are always strong. ...Thats why I main mages.

Sir Saltarin5 votes

You dont need to say that you main mages, if you say that the most broken itemization in the game is "shitty" that's enough information.

LTK KoRo2 votes

mages have the best itemisation right now but adcs are close to them in that matter tbh, these guys have literally four versions of one item

Sir Saltarin1 votes

item 3087 item 3094 item 3085 item 3046 are indeed too weak and should be buffed, I agree with you.

LTK KoRo2 votes

no you misunderstood me, adcs have too many options. i think every zeal item outside of runaans should be removed, thanks. And then buff zeal AS by 5% (but not completed runaans ofc)

pickcollins1 votes

That's a horrible idea. The reason there are so many Zeal items is because there's a wide swath of ADCs that need different abilities. Vayne cant do anything with Runaans but can use PD and Shiv really well. Caitlyn wants RFC and usually PD but doesn't really like Shiv or Runaans. Kai'sa wants hurricane and PD but can't use RFC.

It's not like every ADC has the same playstyle. That's like saying there should only be 1 Hydra or only one Hextech item.

IP Masquerena2 votes

Well, there are difference mages on what they would want if they had the options, but they don't, 90% of the time, mages buy the same items to one another.

Why should AD champs have the benefit of having better options and the mages can't?

Truth be told, if mages would be allowed more items to be more specific to the mage needs, power could be taken away from what they have now, as they don't need to feed into what all the mages want.

pickcollins1 votes

Bc there are 2 primarily blankets for mages. Battle mages (control/AOE/sustain damage like Morgana) and Burst assassin mages (like LeBlanc or Katarina)

There are more than 2 blankets for ADCs. There are crit ADCs. AD casters. Ranged AD assassins. On hit ADCs. Mobile ADCs. Sniper ADCs. There are many champs that are hybrids (Caitlyn is a crit/sniper ADC. MF is an AD caster, etc.) And therefore more crit options are necessary. It's not like those zeal items are exclusively used by crit ADCs. One of the better items for Kai'sa, an on hit, is Hurricane. Vayne makes good use of PD. Etc.

Mael Jade4 votes

Lethality and Armour pen is completely broken right now. If any AD champion can invest into triple lethality, Sudden impact rune, Black Cleaver and Lord Dominiks Regard (and seriously, almost every assassin can do that, some just need a Tiamat) they are negating a solid 130 armour from their target (A Person with 130 armor vs someone with those items and maxed out Lethality has 0.2 effective armour). And because of the % pen the armour growth after 130 is still really small, a 150 armour target is on an effective 10 armor against said assassin.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maelrus Jade,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-04-20T09:12:34.539+0000)

Lethality and Armour pen is completely broken right now. If any AD champion can invest into triple lethality, Sudden impact rune, Black Cleaver and Lord Dominiks Regard (and seriously, almost every assassin can do that, some just need a Tiamat) they are negating a solid 130 armour from their target (A Person with 130 armor vs someone with those items and maxed out Lethality has 0.2 effective armour). And because of the % pen the armour growth after 130 is still really small, a 150 armour target is on an effective 10 armor against said assassin.

Zed NEVER was able to do silly ults and get kills out of it before this whole lethality thing came into place. NOT even thunderlords so its not a rune problem.

So I do feel that the reason why Zed has become strong is that he was pushed on a pedastal. Of course if duskblade autoattack is "OP" the having double blinks to gain easy access will become OP.

ArtumisPrime1 votes

I've said this before and I'll say it again. It is a culmination of a huge number of factors. Gonna just copy/paste this from another thread I commented in a while back.

  • More penetration in items (moreso AD items)
  • Less armor/MR/HP on items
  • Higher damage output runes/masteries (fuck keystones for real)
  • Lower (in S8 completely removed) armor/MR runes
  • The penetration formula was changed (used to be flat first, then %; now it's the other way around...though I think they did this a long time ago, don't remember for sure.)
  • The vast majority of champion buffs are to damage, and nerfs are to defensive stats/abilities
LTK KoRo8 votes

"if someone can invest into 5 armor pen items then he can penetrate a lot of armor" well no shit sherlock. Negating 130 armor after buying 5 items doesn't sound broken. Yknow what sounds more broken? Negating 40% of someone's total MR with one item.

Nyarlathοtep7 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-04-20T13:13:03.890+0000)

"if someone can invest into 5 armor pen items then he can penetrate a lot of armor" well no shit sherlock. Negating 130 armor after buying 5 items doesn't sound broken. Yknow what sounds more broken? Negating 40% of someone's total MR with one item.

Mages cant fall back to their aa like ad can.

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

{quoted}

Mages cant fall back to their aa like ad can.

They peel adcs so they do the autos for them. You don't need to duel enemies in this game.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2019-04-20T14:01:35.326+0000)

They peel adcs so they do the autos for them. You don't need to duel enemies in this game.

Peel? Oh 0.5 stun is strong enough to peel?

Flash news dude, not every mage has the cc potential of lissandra. Xerath, vel, viktor, karthus and vlad lack or have low (or unreliable) hard cc.

HopeStartsWithU1 votes

Karthus WANTS to die, and Vlad has a pool and lots of sustain?? Anivia, Syndra, Lux even Zyra. Mages want to deal much damage from outside and they all have the tools to do so. If they don't have them then they will have something else to survive.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Karthus WANTS to die

And how is this relevant to the question at hand? I said that mages rely on magic pen to deal damage. Not buying one of the two of the mp items leads to a huge loss of damage. One of them said that usually mages have other tools like cc and utility. Others have low to no utility. Karthus is one of them. So how exactly this helps? Even if he dies, he doesnt have mp. No mp low damage.

Vlad has a pool and lots of sustain

See above. Oke cool he has sustain. Now what exactly? He is supposed to be a damage threat, but without penetration he isnt.

Anivia, Syndra, Lux even Zyra

These have shittons of cc. However some DONT have this luxury. Xerath, vel, vitkor have low (or unreliable) hard cc.

HopeStartsWithU1 votes

Your post before, YES but not the post ive answered to. My answer is relevant in terms of potential. If I wanted to talk about magic pen items I would have answered your previous post.

Vlad is tanky as fuck for a mage and the sustain is the reason for that. Like it or not. Vlad sacrifices mobility and range for waveclear, insane amount of AoE damage, a lot of healing and his pool.

Anyway. Mages have fair trade offs for what they do/offer. Xerath has lots of range and Viktor has MS and insane amount of burst.

I don't know what you are discussing about. All mages have jobs to do and none of them is necessarily "kill everyone and everything." Some just wanna wave clear (Anivia), some just wanna poke(lux, xerath). And Karthus wants to die and deal tons of damage while dead, the guy doesn't even have to do much at this point. Also lets not forget about his 5man ult nuke in late game.

It's a fact that a lot of mages peel pretty well though.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Xerath has lots of range

Whats exactly the point of having high range when you are dealing low damage? If you want to poke you need mp. Taking tabi will only impair your damage.

Viktor has MS and insane amount of burst.

All mages have strong burst. And said burst will be lower with no sorc boots.

All mages have jobs to do and none of them is necessarily "kill everyone and everything." Some just wanna wave clear (Anivia), some just wanna poke(lux, xerath). And Karthus wants to die and deal tons of damage while dead, the guy doesn't even have to do much at this point.

If they dont have magic pen, they cant poke, or die to deal dmg while dead. Waveclearing doesnt matter much since every champ nowadays can clear minion waves with ease plus mages cant splitpush.

It's a fact that a lot of mages peel pretty well though.

Is 0.5 stun or 0.75 suspension good hard cc duration to peel? Pro tip, its not. Its fucking not.

HopeStartsWithU1 votes

Whats good about high range? Idk, maybe safety? Why should a HIGH RANGE MAGE oneshot ANYONE in the game? His damage isn't even low. His Q late game can easily take halflife of an ADC and the ADC won't even see him if he is far enough or the ADC slightly mispositioned. Stop pretending.

All mages have strong burst, Viktor has a stronger burst. That's the point. He can easily oneshot squishies. His Q+ AA+ Lichbane pretty much take halflife. His burst is almost instant if well done.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't have magic pen. Nobody cares about that. Mages do their jobs pretty fine, if not too good. Stop riding on that pen argument.

Congrats. You nitpicked a single ability and showed that you don't understand context. Anyway, 0.5 stun is ENOUGH to disrupt someone. ENOUGH to stop an engage or make a catch or take out sums.

Honestly, stop riding on mages so much. Tackle discussions with a bit less bias. Still can't believe that you asked what the point of having extra range is.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Whats good about high range? Idk, maybe safety?

Whats the point of having safety when you arent deal that much damage? His job is literally do damage the enemy.

Why should a HIGH RANGE MAGE oneshot ANYONE in the game

And why he shouldnt? He is (along with vel, lux and ziggs) one of the few mages that rely PURELY on skillshots. So i ask why shouldnt he one shot when he is so telegraphed?

His Q late game can easily take halflife of an ADC

Until you buy an mr item and you suddenly become a tank until he buys a void.

ADC won't even see him if he is far enough

The only way to die without seeing him is by his ulti. And that shit shows where it will land. The rest of his kit has less range than what you can see (the fog of war). Although xerath's q has 50 more range than FOW. However as someone that has 800k with xerath i can safely say that trying to abuse such fact is well, nigh impossible.

Stop pretending.

And you should stop spouting nonsense when you clearly no jack shit nothing.

Nobody is saying they shouldn't have magic pen

Excuse me? The fella that wrote the OP said that by buying tabi and armguard i can completely negate zed's damage. However in doing so the mage in question becomes quite literally, a motherfucking support. Mages need so much the mp that they cant buy other boots. I just pointed that out and here we are, me arguing with you.

Congrats. You nitpicked a single ability and showed that you don't understand context. Anyway, 0.5 stun is ENOUGH to disrupt someone. ENOUGH to stop an engage or make a catch or take out sums.

Nitpicked? You said that mages are on usual good at peeling. And i said that those that arent, what about them? And now you say nitpicked. My god.

0.5 enough to distrupt? Yeah but what then? The adc wont burst the target in that time window. The mage wont be able too because he has tabi, and the adc (or anyone for that matter) wont be able to run away. Unless there is the whole team around that less than a fucking second cc is pretty much useless.

Tackle discussions with a bit less bias

I dont want to hear it from someone that knows nothing.

HopeStartsWithU3 votes

https://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=vanaquish

Did you ever leave fucking gold that you can tell me that I know nothing?

https://champion.gg/champion/Xerath/Middle

https://champion.gg/champion/Zed/Middle

Look at average damage dealt. Feeling dumb now, are we? The most broken h4x assassin has less damage dealt on an average than Xerath. Xerath doesn't need to oneshot people (even though he can if he is slightly ahead) He has to POKE the enemies and CLEAR WAVES.

I doubt you understand that because "muh range 0damage huuuh" you make 0 sense and your arguments make even LESS sense. The fuck is wrong with you buddy? Did you build resistance against facts?

"you know nothing, I know more, automatically I am right" thats how you fucking sound

EDIT: Also damage taken is FAR less on Xerath. Why? Because he is out of screen range when he spams his abilities on you. He is safe, provides enough damage. I don't know if you realise that but before season 6 mages HAD to use more than one rotation to kill an ADC.

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Half of those have 1.5 second or longer hard cc, and the others have abilities that make up for lack of cds. Karthus has q, vlad has q e.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LeBlanc Rose,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=000100010000000000000001,timestamp=2019-04-21T12:38:49.644+0000)

Half of those have 1.5 second or longer hard cc, and the others have abilities that make up for lack of cds. Karthus has q, vlad has q e.

Wait wat. This doesnt even make sense. Lissandra and viktor have longer than 1.5 hard cc. However i said that viktor's is unreliable.

The arguement was how can a mage contribute to a fight when he has less damage because he didnt buy sorc. Cc is the answer but those that i mentioned have unreliable or weak hard cc.

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-04-20T13:13:03.890+0000)

"if someone can invest into 5 armor pen items then he can penetrate a lot of armor" well no shit sherlock. Negating 130 armor after buying 5 items doesn't sound broken. Yknow what sounds more broken? Negating 40% of someone's total MR with one item.

Voidstaff is one of the most broken items in the game. Yet gets to stay there even if mage mains protests why this item ALWAYS needs to be in our slot no matter what.

Illabethe1 votes

Because having only 1 passive, a mediocre amount of stats, and no CDR is totally broken.

News flash: By itself, Void staff doesn't do any more than a Morello or Sorc boots. You need 3-4 items to actually set off a Void staff.

manolis2011 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEFL8ofI,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-04-20T13:13:03.890+0000)

"if someone can invest into 5 armor pen items then he can penetrate a lot of armor" well no shit sherlock. Negating 130 armor after buying 5 items doesn't sound broken. Yknow what sounds more broken? Negating 40% of someone's total MR with one item.

You dont negate 130 armor with 4 lethality items you negative -40 armor instantly because 10 lethality is 60% instead of 80% it got nerfed at season 7 to 6 when its +10 lethality with black cleaver however and mortal reminder you negate -35% total armor and max -59% at full stacks the cleaver + the -40 armor from the lethality items. Tho yeah you can negate 150 armor by bulding mortal reminder and cleaver to a tank that has 260 armor and making it be at 107 armor left -153 armor at max stacks at 6 hits on cleaver.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Because there's only 2 other sources of MPen in the game, really.

LTK KoRo1 votes

so there are 5 (6 if we're counting different variants of LW) armor pen items and 3 MPen item. But stacking armor gives you like the double amount if you were stacking mr. I'd say it's a fair thing that you can itemize onto penetrating armor more than mr if available about of armor is much bigger than mr

NineTailedMystic1 votes

If you ask me 35% total pen (LDR) + 35% shred (BC) + about 55 flat across 3 items is a lot more than 40% (Void) + 36 flat in Boots and Orb. Armor is pretty worthless outside of nulling turrets.

LTK KoRo1 votes

of course it's more, but there's much more armor to shred than mr. The biggest amount of MR i have seen on one champion was something like ~300, while the biggest amount of armor was like 500-600 (not including just-after-rework Sejuani with her 1k armor and mr).

Also by the way, BC gives 24% shred at max stacks.

I'd say (my opinion alert) that armor pen is quite balanced right now. Crit is much bigger problem.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Sorry, forgot they nerfed BC a long time ago.

If you ask me, I think stacjking Armor Pen is a little too good and would make it so you can't stack them all. BC is a little harder to help with that since it's a debuff, rather than a stat, but idk. Or maybe go back to the old formula for determining total Armor Pen/Magic Pen where flat pen was worse due to it applying first, then %pen.

Illabethe1 votes

It's far more than 130 when taking into account Black Cleaver and the LDR/LW.

He's underestimating it heavily.

If you have all of the above,

vs 500 Armor:

Black Cleaver activates first, reducing 500 to 380 Armor

Damage then Penetrates the remainder, making 380 behave like 247 Armor.

THEN Lethality applies.

Damage in this example will be as if the target has 190 Armor, not 500.

That's a reduction of 310 Armor, not 130.

360-400 are very realistic Armor numbers for tanks, with a couple outliers like Malph and Rammus who spike higher. They lose more like 250, and have no offensive items on these builds, so they basically lose 1/2 their gear or more from this build.

LTK KoRo2 votes

so in the end a 5 items ad-someone can penetrate ~60% of someone's armor while one item mage can penetrate 40% of someone's mr. yep, still don't see how ad-people are outliers here

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