Why I'm against all these "Nerf Lee Sin" topics

Lao Fu the Tiger··9 votes·1,190 views

Please read this before you immediately downvote it.

I have a class so I'll try to flesh this out more later. But in all honesty, I'm perfectly content with Lee Sin's current position. And here's why.

First, you guys are talking and talking without end about how strong he is. He's incredibly mobile, has game-changing crowd control, and crazy move speed and steroids that give him power. He's "seen every game" and is a "top pick in both professional and solo queue." He's "dominating the jungle" and needs to be nerfed because of his perceived power.

This is simply not true at the moment.

Yes, he is incredibly annoying to play against, incredibly difficult to chase (if not impossible) and his disengage in duels is so strong that you are most likely not going to kill him, even if he gets caught out. Yes, his scalings are very high. Yes, on paper, he is incredibly strong. But right now, he is absolutely not dominating the jungle at any level of play, unless you consider "dominating" to be overpowering other junglers rather than simply percentage play rate.

Lee sin has an incredibly bad win percentage at both low and high elo solo queue, and poor win rates in professional games. Yes, I do know that win percentages aren't everything, but they certainly are not something to be ignored. Lee Sin is not winning games. Period. Even by people at the professional level with thousands upon thousands of games with him and know his mechanics perfectly. Why? Because right now, he is not dominating the jungle.

His win rates fell. Fair enough. And to some, that isn't enough. I agree. So let's check out some other statistics. How about pick rate? You all are tired of seeing him every game. In the last month alone, Lee's popularity at professional level play has dropped over 15%, and is continuing to drop. Meanwhile, Vi's popularity has increased by a tad over 13%, and Rek'Sai's has increased by 11%. Professionals are picking these champions (and J4, who's popularity is also decreasing, which I found surprising) over Lee Sin because at professional level play, Lee Sin is in a much weaker place than these other junglers. Nobody talks about Vi. I'm baffled as to why. She's winning more games by a huge margin, and she's considered much stronger than Lee in many areas. Vi is dominating the jungle right now at pro level play, not Lee. In fact, in the last two weeks, Lee has been picked less than half the number of times Vi has in games.

I realise Lee is annoying as hell to play against. I realise his mobility is whack. But the hard, cold, raw data is showing that this is nothing more at the moment than perceived power, not actual power. Win rates are not everything. But when even the best of the best Lee Sin players are losing more games than winning, win rates do show evidence of weakness. Annoying does not mean powerful. He is powerful, yes. He is annoying, yes. But no, right now, he is absolutely not overbearing. No, he is not dominating the jungle. He has been falling out of favour during the last month and is still continuing to fall out of favour in high level play. Soon, because people follow professionals, he'll drop in low level play as well.

I'll amend this and make edits when I'm out of class. But this is my stance. Like it or disagree, I don't mind. I'm trying to be objective and do nothing but give out hard statistics. And unlike a human's bias, statistics do not lie.

26 Comments

SEKAI5 votes

Check up his pick and ban rate, his tournament's pick and ban rate, and ofc his tournament's win rates. You sure you actually fact checked before claiming he has bad win rate in tournaments? 55% win rate in the last worlds isn't what I would call a "bad win rate".

Then objectively look at his kit, then compare to some others.

Try to find when Lee was actually weak during his lifetime, well there were like 1 week when he was actually weak, and no it wasn't when FF ran rampant he was still a solid pick then despite that item's original nonsense.

Why? Because right now, he is not dominating the jungle.

Oh boy, sitting on the side seat in the VIP lodge suddenly means he has no problems now? J4 kinda just needs some number nerfs tbh, Lee? This guy actually needs a rework of all things.

Lee isn't the end of it all, in fact, he was the one who started it all.

Golden thumb rule, a jack of all trades should always stay a master of none. Riot disagrees with this line for years already.

Troy2426211 votes

Beat me to it.

Lao Fu the Tiger2 votes

{quoted}

Check up his pick and ban rate, his tournament's pick and ban rate, and ofc his tournament's win rates. You sure you actually fact checked before claiming he has bad win rate in tournaments? 55% win rate in the last worlds isn't what I would call a "bad win rate".

Then objectively look at his kit, then compare to some others.

Try to find when Lee was actually weak during his lifetime, well there were like 1 week when he was actually weak, and no it wasn't when FF ran rampant he was still a solid pick then despite that item's original nonsense.

Oh boy, sitting on the side seat in the VIP lodge suddenly means he has no problems now? J4 kinda just needs some number nerfs tbh, Lee? This guy actually needs a rework of all things.

Lee isn't the end of it all, in fact, he was the one who started it all.

I agree. Last season, he dominated. His win rate was high. At worlds. In 2014. Not in season 5. He's falling.

To be totally honest, I don't want Lee to be weak. I want him balanced. And according to the statistics at the present moment, he is very balanced in play, if not closer to the weak end compared to the competition that's becoming more and more popular.

To clarify, I'm not saying I disagree with you. His kit is annoying and needs reworking. I'm just saying that right now, I see him as balanced, despite all of the topics demanding nerfs. He does need work, but for the moment, he's not overbearing and overtly strong.

Pinker 101 votes

Couple things wrong with your argument, 1, the last worlds was with the previous jungle. 2, you need to do some research yourself. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/leesin/diamond His win rate spiked briefly in december and again in january while steadily dropping since July at the highest levels of play, where his ban rate is almost non existent and his pick rate is now less than 47%, which happens to be his win rate.

Now Vi and reksai, the ones that're actually the problem.

Vi http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/vi/diamond 51% win rate, 10% lower pick rate largely related to the 4X higher ban rate (people don't wanna play against her, they could care less about shit sin), and mos timportantly a climbing win/pick rate.

Or rek'sai, with the highest ban/win rates of all 3, and the lowest pick rates. This bitch is scary. True, she used to be worse, but she's still way better than lee. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/reksai/diamond

Lee sin was a strong pick. He was dominating. That was before the new jungle. Now there are better picks. Or at the very least better bans.

BestSupportGold4 votes
  1. You should never chase a Lee Sin
  2. If Lee Sin falls behind in the early game, he becomes completely useless in the Mid Game. Struggling Late Game.
  3. He is one of the fastest junglers
  4. Can be outplayed
  5. Understand his mechanics and you can play well against him
  6. When it comes to team fights, Lee Sin is great for picking out the target, but other than that he doesn't put out burst damage.
  7. In my opinion he is a utility jungle, like Sivir is a utility adc.
Lao Fu the Tiger2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bae B Batter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEEElgEA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-18T18:41:37.619+0000)

  1. You should never chase a Lee Sin
  2. If Lee Sin falls behind in the early game, he becomes completely useless in the Mid Game. Struggling Late Game.
  3. He is one of the fastest junglers
  4. Can be outplayed
  5. Understand his mechanics and you can play well against him
  6. When it comes to team fights, Lee Sin is great for picking out the target, but other than that he doesn't put out burst damage.
  7. In my opinion he is a utility jungle, like Sivir is a utility adc.

I agree. And in the current Vi/Rek'Sai/J4 meta, his utility is quickly being surpassed by superior junglers at the moment.

BestSupportGold2 votes

More and more people are going for high output damage jungles, that can get to the back end. Lee Sin, is good in poke compositions. He's like an assassin, in a sense that he can get in and out, and solo you.

But when you introduce a well created team comp, he's invisible.

SEKAI3 votes

If Lee Sin falls behind in the early game, he becomes completely useless in the Mid Game. Struggling Late Game.

This is the perfect example of a fallacy. Lee USED TO fall when S1 - 2 was the thing, not anymore unless you compare strictly to his own early brokeness instead of the game in general.

When it comes to team fights, Lee Sin is great for picking out the target, but other than that he doesn't put out burst damage.

Check his skill scales.

Can be outplayed

How? If you fail to escape with a kit that is twice as big as others that has 3 out of 4 slots being provided as direct escape, it means the problem is on the player not on the champion.

In my opinion he is a utility jungle, like Sivir is a utility adc.

Then he shouldn't have one of the highest burst in early game if this is the case.

BestSupportGold3 votes

IF he falls behind in the early game it makes his highest burst in early game NULL.

If he does get behind he does fall off. If you watch the LCS the analysts talk about him all the time when he is picked.

His skills do scale, but you don't ever build Glass Cannon Lee Sin. Everyone knows that.

SEKAI3 votes

His early is too good in terms of damage.

If he gets it rolling, he builds damage and deletes the game, if he doesn't he build tank and still be a very solid tank + utility fighter.

Where is the risk in actually playing him? When are the situations where you pick Lee, like any other champ, you would say to yourself "I need to achieve the base line of XXX in this game otherwise I'm dun goofed this round"?

There is none, hence why there is not a single bad time where you would say "yo bro prob picking Lee in this game isn't a great idea", it just never happens. Making it possible to just pick him against or into any champion and any team comp, ignoring counterplay by default and counterbuild only matters AFTER YOU FAIL early.

That is no right yo, it isn't.

Lee is simply a great example of a combination between messy design philosophy and inconsistent balancing policy.

Lao Fu the Tiger2 votes

{quoted}

His early is too good in terms of damage.

If he gets it rolling, he builds damage and deletes the game, if he doesn't he build tank and still be a very solid tank + utility fighter.

Where is the risk in actually playing him? When are the situations where you pick Lee, like any other champ, you would say to yourself "I need to achieve the base line of XXX in this game otherwise I'm dun goofed this round"?

There is none, hence why there is not a single bad time where you would say "yo bro prob picking Lee in this game isn't a great idea", it just never happens. Making it possible to just pick him against or into any champion and any team comp, ignoring counterplay by default and counterbuild only matters AFTER YOU FAIL early.

That is no right yo, it isn't.

Lee is simply a great example of a combination between messy design philosophy and inconsistent balancing policy.

And Vi isn't?

If she gets rolling, she builds damage and deletes people. If she doesn't she builds tank and still is a very solid tank + utility fighter.

SEKAI2 votes

Yer but this is a Lee thread tho.

BestSupportGold2 votes

Vi is worse. Her W shreds. Her ultimate is single target but can disrupt any grouping. Her combos are far more damaging than a Lee Sin.

Point your attentions to Vi's Kit.

BestSupportGold2 votes

You're assuming that every Lee Sin player is Rush or Insec . My argument can be true throughout any ELO. There are always times where he COULD get behind. IT does happen.

If he builds: item 3707 item 3143 item 3190 item 3035 item 3065 He's not out producing damage that can turn a fight.

With that build, if he turns a fight it's because someone isn't targeting the correct people.

I think Lee Sin is a good balance, and his scaling comes from the person playing him.

He is 100% Mechanical. He doesn't work if the person who is playing him has bad mechanics. You will see it.

Lee Sin can make plays, but he can also tilt, and that again is stemmed from the person playing Lee Sin.

ForgiveColour2 votes

i dont take them seriously because they believe lee is op but nidalee is balanced because she is "squishy"

BestSupportGold1 votes

Nidalee is far from balanced. He proc'd damage from landing spears and traps is ridiculous. You can build her with a tri force and completely dominate.

How does Lee Sin compare to that scale?

Nidalee item 3078 item 3089

and her passive. Swiftly through bushes. Is this happening right now?

Adalore2 votes

I haven't had a proper problem with Lee sin since he lost his long trade "I win button" of his cripple's attack speed debuff, because of that he wasn't able to brute force as many trades and actually would lose to characters he previously beat the snot out of.

And good lord, I ask for J4 and Vi bans each time I ranked right now because THOSE GUYS, Oh good lord, I see them all the time now and they eat my mid picks for multi course meals throughout the match.

SlytherinUmbreon2 votes

Please read this before you immediately downvote it.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO -downvotes- -reads the post- -upvotes-

Learn 2 Swim2 votes

debating people like OP on lee sin is a waste of time

almost 20 junglers nerfed this season and lee isnt one of them

fuck off OP

stuartk111 votes

I feel that the reason why people hate on Lee Sin so much is that he effectively suppresses a lot of other junglers who rarely see play. But here's the thing, a lot of other Junglers do this too, such as Jarvan and Vi. People have started to turn on Jarvan as well, but Lee Sin was effectively the first to suppress a large portion of junglers, so he gets the most hate. I actually dislike Lee Sin aswell. I think he has an overloaded kit, and has been a strong pick for so long, but there's more problems right now, and even more problematic junglers.

BestSupportGold1 votes

His Kit is fine. He is 100% Mechanic based He is just a mobile jungle. Why are we forgetting Shyvana Identical.

stuartk112 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bae B Batter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEEElgEA,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-02-18T19:11:35.161+0000)

His Kit is fine. He is 100% Mechanic based He is just a mobile jungle. Why are we forgetting Shyvana Identical.

You don't need to understand his mechanics do well with him. I did well with him with only 4 games on him. Mobile junglers shouldn't have so much utility, and Shyvanna is completely different. So much so that I can't really identify what the similarities are.

BestSupportGold1 votes

Yes you do. It's part of his Kit.

Similarities: Highly Mobile Dragon Form/Lee Sin's double abilities Scales equally well if not better than Lee Sin Can turn team fights Tank Tank/Damage

stuartk111 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bae B Batter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEEElgEA,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-18T19:50:02.584+0000)

Yes you do. It's part of his Kit.

Similarities: Highly Mobile Dragon Form/Lee Sin's double abilities Scales equally well if not better than Lee Sin Can turn team fights Tank Tank/Damage

A lot of what you said (such as Damage. Really grasping there) can be said for a large amount of champions in the game. Shyvanna required her ultimate to dash, whereas Lee Sin has 2, for example. Shyvanna's ability to gank effectively early is poor, but Lee is quite strong. Also, you really don't need to understand mechanics to play Lee Sin. Most people who say this can never effectively explain what they mean by mechanics, as it's mostly just landing a skillshot to get in, then using his Tempest/Cripple. Using his R, then flashing during cast animation, is nothing that requires any skill, and there is no difficult mechanics that would divide bad Lee Sin players from good ones.

BestSupportGold1 votes

When I mentioned mechanics for lee sin, I mean positioning, targeting, combos, when to engage, when to disengage etc. That is the background core to his kit. He is a very well balanced champ, even with is nerf. Lee Sin requires skill to play. He can't just be picked up and played and he will automatically get kills and awesome plays. Trust, I have seen it. If a Lee Sin player is not making the right calls and traveling around the map, he is not as effective as he could be.

stuartk111 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bae B Batter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEEElgEA,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-20T17:01:13.796+0000)

When I mentioned mechanics for lee sin, I mean positioning, targeting, combos, when to engage, when to disengage etc. That is the background core to his kit. He is a very well balanced champ, even with is nerf. Lee Sin requires skill to play. He can't just be picked up and played and he will automatically get kills and awesome plays. Trust, I have seen it. If a Lee Sin player is not making the right calls and traveling around the map, he is not as effective as he could be.

Targeting and positioning are true for every champion in the game, which is more wide than your Shyvanna comparison, and combos are more true for combo mages than anything else. There aren't difficult mechanics on Lee Sin, and he no longer relies on his mechanics to get ahead. I've played Lee Sin, and done well against players who would normally be strictly better than me (they were around Gold 4). Lee's kit is the exact opposite. It is very forgiven for bad moves and making poor decisions. Got bad positioning? You can ward hop if needed. Went in too far? Just use your ultimate on one of them. Still not enough. Double Q that target while they are flying to move a massive distance. Your ultimate and Q deal a rather large amount of damage, so you might be able to get that kill, but who knows. Did you disengage too early? Used your ultimate without realising that your team are on their way? It's fine. You can re-engage. Use your Q, get in there, and use your Tempest/Cripple (E) to duel them. Should have disengaged after all? Enemy is more fed than you thought? Ward hop outta there. You can always re-engage again if needed. Way more forgiving than most other champions in the game. Requires less skill to play than people say he does.

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