Still don't understand why lethality isn't melee only

LegitBacon66·Feb 1, 2017·44 votes·2,649 views

Not only is lethality a great scaling armor pen now what if they build lord dominiks to? Look at jayce builds, no wonder he deletes

59 Comments

MissingKayoFeb 1, 20176 votes

Ranged class bias and stupidity.

Zero Skill TankFeb 1, 20176 votes

Because melee only items are terrible design in general. Not all melee champions are the same, and not all of them deserve the same itemization bonuses. Only effects that should be melee only are ones directly interacting with basic attacks and with nothing else, like mallet slow and hydra's cleave.

It's the same reason why we don't have "immobile champion only" items - not all immobile champions deserve the same kind of bonus.

RalanrFeb 1, 201714 votes

The only melee only items are the hydra ones. I'm not seeing how they are terribly designed.

TequilaZombieFeb 1, 20174 votes

We have item 3022 item 3071 item 3742 interacting differently with melee and ranged champions too.

Also, I think that 2B2B meant that making items Melee Only is overall a bad design choice, not that the melee only items we have are badly designed.

RalanrFeb 1, 20173 votes

I honestly kinda agree with it being bad design to make them, but then I see things like rapidfire Cannon which is a ranged item that can be built on a melee champion but doesn't really benefit them at all.

Kinda wish we had a melee item that can be built on a ranged champion but can't be utilized on them.

TequilaZombieFeb 1, 20171 votes

If riot made the Hydra items proc the AoE around the champion rather than on attack point (aka 125-175 units away from the caster), Ranged units would be able to use it.

Former-former Ghostblade also worked kinda like that, lasting longer for melees than for rangeds

WoonStruckFeb 1, 20171 votes

Sometimes you have to use bad design to fix a problem in a badly designed game.

To escape most of the issues everyone it talking back and fourth about, they'd have to redesign every aspect players interact with from the ground up with all of those issues in mind.

AnidanFeb 1, 20171 votes

You're not wrong. Riot made ranged vs melee too even which benefits ranged, given the natural ranged advantage in this game. When that situation comes up you have to do something to inherently benefit melee more, be it significantly reduced item utility for ranged (reduced slow on Frozen Mallet, for example), or making specific abusable items melee-only (e.g. hydra items). You could use both of those to reduce the impact of those items on ranged and dissuade them from buying it. In DotA2 the Skull Basher has a 25% chance to stun on AA, through magic immunity. The chance for ranged? 10%. This makes it very, very unreliable on ranged heroes and a bad purchase as a result (with the only half-decent ranged user being Windranger, who wants other items far more since the chance is only 10% and she gets her own stun), while melee carries can reasonably use it. The Skull Basher issue is further added on by the fact that it can combine with Vanguard, which provides durability by block damage from enemy AAs - and it blocks more if you're melee, which allows Abyssal Blade to double-dip into melee benefits so ranged heroes don't buy it.

WoonStruckFeb 1, 20171 votes

You also have to remember innate tools that champions have as well.

Mobility used to be pretty limited in beta/season 1.

This lead to Ashe abusing anything that wasn't a mage/adc.

In turn, Riot released things like Irelia and Xin.

In turn, Riot released things like OG Graves, and later champions like Kalista.

In turn, Riot released things like VGU Poppy and Camille...

Yeah...Apparently they haven't realized that approach doesn't work very well.

AnidanFeb 1, 20171 votes

Yep. Releasing specific things as a response doesn't fix the problem unless you're using those specific things. Which is fine in a game where you can constantly switch characters, but less so when you lock in to a character at the beginning of the game and that's that. You need large overarching changes to allow yourself to use preventative abuse measures on any scale larger than a hero-to-hero basis, but whenever Riot makes a change they don't tend to implement worthwhile counter-measures alongside it until a random item rework or a new champion release (or re-release).

EedatFeb 1, 20172 votes

Dont forget item 3044 (and therefore item 3078 as well) interacts differently, not just item 3071

Also, Fervor.

Zero Skill TankFeb 1, 20171 votes

But hydra items are exactly what I pointed to be the acceptable case. Splash damage interacts with basic attacks, and with basic attacks alone, so amount of power you get from it is very directly connected to your attack range, and much less so, if at all, to other properties of the champion.

Lethality is very different, as it empowers all physical damage. It is hard to imagine lethality as a stat that would be too broken to be given to Graves, and OK to be given to Zed who often packs even more ranged poke. Making it melee only would obviously get rid of some out-of-line lethality builds, by reducing the amount of champions it's available too, but balancing lethality users would still need to be done on case-by-case basis. If Riot is going to balance lethality Zed, Talon, WK and Jayce case-by-case, there is no reason why they wouldn't do the same for Lucian or Graves.

CowseedFeb 1, 20171 votes

I think they are saying that it would be easier to balalance for melee people only than to make it weak so that ranged people don't turn into assassins

CowseedFeb 1, 20173 votes

ADC with tiamat.... https://media4.giphy.com/media/tw1Hrl0oCSCtO/200_s.gif

Golden Tager XFeb 1, 20176 votes

Season 1 Sivir item 3077

When ricochet still applied on hits and ranged could use tiamat.

CowseedFeb 1, 20175 votes

I give up on life just thinking about this

Hinagiku33Feb 1, 20175 votes

Then you remember that Ricochet also used to be a toggle ability...

Spice POWAHFeb 2, 20173 votes

oh jeez

WinTheWarOnPantsFeb 1, 20171 votes

Jinx item 3074 item 3085 I'm sure this wouldn't ever become a problem lol

3TWarriorFeb 2, 20171 votes

item 3085 item 3087 item 3074 item 3124 etc...this would hurt people XD

WimbledofyFeb 2, 20171 votes

well yeah because it makes sense for those items to be melee only. I don't think he was saying they are terribly designed. He said in general, and then specifically said hydra items were fine.

TequilaZombieFeb 1, 20175 votes

Because right now Riot WANTS Marksmen to use Lethality builds instead of Crit+AS. This is meant to get them a better mid game and a weaker late game. This way they won't be overbearing late game unless they build towards it (and pay by having a mediocre mid game), but will also have the potential to be useful by Mid Game, at the time most games are being closed right now.

MissingKayoFeb 1, 20177 votes

It doesn't give them any meaningfully weaker lategame. It gives a strong early, even stronger mid, and still a strong late (weaker than full crit by late, but still far too strong to be justifiable).

LostFr0stFeb 1, 20176 votes

Which is probably why they are reworking tank itemization next.

ACENOXFeb 1, 20175 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't give them any meaningfully weaker lategame.

??? put 6 slots mundo with 5k hp against a lethality adc and tell me what will happen

Golden Tager XFeb 1, 20171 votes

item 3033 +all the pen they have, they will melt through him like butter.

AhristocatsFeb 1, 20171 votes

who are you talking about? cause lethality adc all have trash attack speed, no crit and will deal nearly 300 to mundo for each aa with a trash attack speed meanwhile 6 items mundo will heal like 200/sec even with mortal reminder

AnidanFeb 1, 20171 votes

Yeah, not only that but Mundo does not hit like a sissy, either. He gets a pretty sizable AA steroid and his cleavers are no joke, with his W weighing in over time, as well.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

??? put 6 slots mundo with 5k hp against a lethality adc and tell me what will happen

the mundo will eat them alive as long as he actually lands his cleavers

ForgiveColourFeb 1, 20175 votes

Still dont understand why junglers is allowed to be the strongest role since season 2

Still dont understand why mages are so forgiving

WoonStruckFeb 1, 20171 votes

First point is kinda silly because junglers were a carry role in season 1, and were relatively weak seasons 2 and 3 outside of a select few. Past that, I'm inclined to agree.

Second point still spot-on.

HélrèFeb 1, 20174 votes

It should be easy to understand.

Because assassins are the melee that typically build lethality. So who are their targets? The squishy back line. Where as, the tanks and heavy divers will be those focused by the ADC's. So ranged ADCs need the pen much more than melee Assassins do.

They need enough pen to be able to damage the tanks, since ADC's do not flank like assassins. So assassins targets will be mostly low armor, low health targets. And they build lethality to bypass ALL of their targets armor, to make their damage "True Damage". In a sense. So the reason they don't make it a melee exclusive is because it's far to important for ranged champions who sit in the back line while fighting the enemy front line, with your front line. Making it exclusive to flankers who in reality don't need a ton of it in the first place because most of their targets aren't building armor anyway, would be silly.

Hinagiku33Feb 1, 20171 votes

Ranged champions have Critical Strike and % Armor Shred as their core Tank-busting stats and have solid options for both available. Infinity Edge covers Critical Strike Damage by increasing the multiplier while the Zeal items provide extra Critical Strike Chance along with Attack Speed to improve reliability and decrease the time it takes to rapid-fire burst something to death. The % Armor Shred items building from Last Whisper are all an ADC will ever need since it scales with the target's Bonus Armor.

Lethality is terrible for killing Tanks. A little flat Armor removed won't increase damage to Tanks enough to be worth it. By Riot's own statements Lethality is meant for Assassins to enhance their damage against low-Armor targets since they can't use multiplier effects like Critical Strike and can't build enough AD otherwise since AD slot-efficiency needs to be kept low to prevent ADCs from going balls-out crazy. So Riot tacked Lethality onto high AD items that don't offer stats like Critical Strike or Attack Speed to force a trade-off for stacking Lethality effects.

Assassins should stack Lethality, getting solid AD and flat Armor Penetration to burst low-Armor targets.

ADCs should stack Critical Strike and Attack Speed, having less raw AD but much higher DPS due to rapid-fire Crits to chunk down high-Armor targets without taking out a squishy in 1 hit.

...But given the current game state, it's far more valuable to just reliably explode the enemy ADC and other carries. So for a while now ADCs have been trading out Critical Strike for Lethality, sacrificing their Tank-killing potential for the ability to instantly delete the enemy ADC and Mage from a safe range. Since this strategy easily ends games early they are not punished for sacrificing their late game by not going for Critical Strike builds, meaning that they are not really trading anything away by doing this.

Nudging ADCs back into late game Crit builds would help make games a little longer and allowing for comebacks to be possible by making late game a thing again.

DJMason88Feb 2, 20173 votes

Graves Quinn

TheHappyReaperzFeb 1, 20172 votes

Wouldn't Jayce be able to use Lethality, even if they made it melee only?

MissingKayoFeb 1, 20173 votes

It would stop applying on all his ranged autos though.

TyrekGoldenspearFeb 1, 20171 votes

But it would still apply on his EQ combo, which is what people are complaining about.

MissingKayoFeb 1, 20171 votes

His EQ can be looked at separately.

Usernamehere1235Feb 1, 20172 votes

Firstly, Jayce's premier build even after 7.2 doesn't involve a lot of lethality at all. He does build Youmuu's, but other than that, no lethality.

Secondly, lethality isn't necessarily made for melee champions. I don't expect Darius or Irelia to be stacking up lethality, I expect some assassins and some poke/ranged champions to be picking it up.

Aside from the good ol' Miss Fortune, not many ADCs can even abuse lethality.

LegitBacon66Feb 1, 20171 votes

Lol draven and jhin what are you saying and varus.

If you expect assassins to buIld lethality thats good because rengar builds black cleaver and full tank, seems like lethality to me.

Lintu PuckFeb 2, 20172 votes

Armor. Piercing. Bullets.

EpicanianFeb 1, 20171 votes

right we need adcs to be weaker

EedatFeb 1, 20171 votes

Just nerf MF and Jayce and the rest are fine tbh

DJMason88Feb 2, 20171 votes

Nerf MF?

h5LYF41LamFeb 1, 20171 votes

draven varus and lucian have no reason to build crit anymore. ADC=Critical chance build thinking died in season 5.

AirKingNeoFeb 2, 20171 votes

Jayce gets Mortal Reminder not LDR.

Maybe the problem is LDR/Mortal Reminder and not armor pen.

VasilisGreenFeb 2, 20171 votes

Why? What makes mortal reminder so good on him over LDR? You understand that Mortal Reminder is supposed to be good against healing and self healing like a Mundo or a Volibear or very high amounts of lifesteal right? If they don't have one of those, why even build Reminder when LDR will give you more damage if they have even 1HP more than you in their HP pool? You understand that buying an item with multiple variants and only getting a specific variant every time puts you in a disadvantage in many cases.

AirKingNeoFeb 2, 20171 votes

Because Jayce deals so much fucking damage right now he can go forgo damage of TLD and LDR for Stormraiders and Mortal Reminder.

Also Mortal Reminder stops ADCs from living him combo with lifesteal and stops Maokai's healing.

VasilisGreenFeb 3, 20171 votes

I'll agree on the lifesteal part but not all games have a maokai. And i already said about champions with selfhealing.