What If We Increased Tank Item Cost, But Increased The Stats Provided?

Meep Man·Jun 18, 2018·14 votes·7,471 views

This way Tanks are tankier late game when their durability is actually suffering the most right now.

Gargoyle's Stoneplate Cost: 2500G -> 2950G Armor: 40 -> 60 Magic Resist: 40 -> 60

Randuin's Omen Cost: 2900G -> 3350G Health: 400 -> 550 Armor: 60 -> 75

Spirit Visage Cost: 2800G -> 3250G Health: 450 -> 600 Magic Resist: 55 -> 70

Warmog's Armor Cost: 2850G -> 3300G Health: 800 -> 1000 Health Regeneration: 200% -> 300%

Maybe not for EVERY item, but for the one's that focus mainly on providing large boosts in defenses in their own specific ways, like the ones above.

46 Comments

TheSingularityJun 19, 20189 votes

Definitely agree, over the years tanks have lost about 850 HP in a standard full build, and riot has constantly nerfed stats and buffed prices, as if tanks don't like big, expensive and shiny items -_- Also we've lost 30 armor from item 3143 , 20 armor from item 3075 , 5 from item 3025 . They've lost a little MR here and there, but MR is so strong MR doesn't need changes in items. So I wouldn't touch item 3065 at all, as a item 3211 alone can shut down an AP laners poke. Instead I think tanks need another hybrid item (like item 3193 ) to spice things up.

Only slightly disagree with the changes, mainly in what stats but this would come down to what you personally want from the items: item 3083 I think it just needs a revert to 2850 gold and grant 1000 HP. It's passive already grants crazy sustain when out of combat so increasing that is a bit much. item 3143 I would bump the health to 500, but grant 90 armor instead of the proposed 75. item 3193 I'd probably go half way, 2700-2800 gold with 50/50 resists. Most of the cost is in the passive and active so that's primarily why you buy it. Making it significantly expensive with the secondary cause for purchase only slows down power spikes

I would also: item 3751 Health increased to 300 item 1401 item 1413 New recipe: Respective smite+ item 1029 +. Cost increased to 2900 Now grants 400 HP, 15 armor, +25% total health. From 300 health, +15% bonus health

item 3075 Armor increased to 100 from 80, cost increased to 3100 Perhaps item 3065 health increased to 500, cost increased to 2900 item 3001 Health increased to 400, cost increased to 3100 item 3194 health increased to 400, cost increased to 2900

Critmaster GarenJun 19, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Definitely agree, over the years tanks have lost about 850 HP in a standard full build, and riot has constantly nerfed stats and buffed prices, as if tanks don't like big, expensive and shiny items -_- Also we've lost 30 armor from , 20 armor from , 5 from . They've lost a little MR here and there, but MR is so strong MR doesn't need changes in items. So I wouldn't touch at all, as a alone can shut down an AP laners poke. Instead I think tanks need another hybrid item (like ) to spice things up.

.

Only slightly disagree with the changes, mainly in what stats but this would come down to what you personally want from the items: I think it just needs a revert to 2850 gold and grant 1000 HP. It's passive already grants crazy sustain when out of combat so increasing that is a bit much. I would bump the health to 500, but grant 90 armor instead of the proposed 75. I'd probably go half way, 2700-2800 gold with 50/50 resists. Most of the cost is in the passive and active so that's primarily why you buy it. Making it significantly expensive with the secondary cause for purchase only slows down power spikes

to be fair, runes have added a lot of health aswell. you get like 140 off resolve directly, another 150 to 300 off overgrowth, and another about 50 to 100 from grasp.

i dont think defensive stats are ever going to be good as long as infinity edge and conqueror are around.

i dont like the true damage conversion tbh. it should have been a more conventional damage increase through stacking armor pen, or % a damage increase.

at least that way % damage reduction abilities arent trashed by this mechanic.

TheSingularityJun 19, 20184 votes

Picking the resolve tree grants 15 - 135 based on secondary tree, inspiration grants 30 - 270 which I will admit is allot for no effort. You can get a decent amount from grasp however overgrowth is so painstakingly slow it may as well not be there. You need 1000 farm, or to be around 1000 dying minions to achieve the old jungle item (+25% max health), since the average player is around about, 150 minions? We get 3.75% extra HP guaranteed (who knows how many minions they miss). Not even equivalent to the old mastery "stoneborn pact", which also gave that stat from the get go.

As Nautilus with item 3742 item 3068 item 3083 item 3065 item 3143 item 3800 I achieved 3495, with the proposed boost we'd end up with an extra 131 HP, not even the baseline you proposed. If a team lost all 3 inhibs, then it'd be another story as they'd have a constant supply of minions to feed this keystone. I have no idea what the average grasp gains would be, but your estimate seems about right for the average joe. If someone was really try harding to stack it as high as possible, I really don't know how high it'd go.

Meep ManJun 19, 20181 votes

The old Jungle item was +25% Bonus Health

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

mb. misread

Stand Alone WolfJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Couldn't someone run a tank top, get a lead from farm with occasional kills for out sustaining them in lane, buy one core item, and pretty much bully the opposing enemy out of existence?

It would be so easy for someone to run Renekton (Who's already scary as-is) build tanky, with one AD item, and just live to deal the damage, as well as just living in general.

IMHO, I feel like all it would do is start the dreaded, highly broken Tank Meta v2

Getting Flash-backs ~~"ROCK SOLID!"~~

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

Honestly wouldn't expect every single one to go through. At best 2 or 3 including warmogs, but excluding cinderhulk (so potentially 4). And I doubt it with regards to renekton. He needs to constantly build damage to keep up before he beefs up, otherwise he drops off a cliff sooner than expected. Lategame his only purpose is meatshield because and he sucks so hard at diving into an entire team (CC OP).

Reliable divers like Nocturne Irelia (who is already busted af) I could see as a problem, but I'd simply nerf their burst a teeny tiny bit depending on who ends up too strong

As for your first point. If Teemo Vayne Vladimir Trundle Singed Olaf Mordekaiser Jax JarvanIV Kayle Irelia Fiora Gnar Illaoi Darius DrMundo Ekko Kled Rumble Yorick and of course a jungler which could be anyone, didn't exist this would be overwhelmingly valid. But, depending on ELO, just about all of these champions will absolutely decimate tanks, or out scale them. Hell one of the tank brethren counters his own class, and is highly overtuned Ornn Of course, those are just champs I'd take top to devour them. If we expand to mid, jungle and ADC counters we have Anivia AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Graves Kaisa Kayn (raast) Kennen Ryze Twitch Varus Velkoz Warwick XinZhao Zyra on top of the rest. There're far more counters to tanks (everyone can get banshees+qss and supports can get mikaels, make them blow their load then disengage with Janna )

BLACK REALM GODJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Definitely agree, over the years tanks have lost about 850 HP in a standard full build, and riot has constantly nerfed stats and buffed prices, as if tanks don't like big, expensive and shiny items -_- Also we've lost 30 armor from , 20 armor from , 5 from . They've lost a little MR here and there, but MR is so strong MR doesn't need changes in items. So I wouldn't touch at all, as a alone can shut down an AP laners poke. Instead I think tanks need another hybrid item (like ) to spice things up.

.

Only slightly disagree with the changes, mainly in what stats but this would come down to what you personally want from the items: I think it just needs a revert to 2850 gold and grant 1000 HP. It's passive already grants crazy sustain when out of combat so increasing that is a bit much. I would bump the health to 500, but grant 90 armor instead of the proposed 75. I'd probably go half way, 2700-2800 gold with 50/50 resists. Most of the cost is in the passive and active so that's primarily why you buy it. Making it significantly expensive with the secondary cause for purchase only slows down power spikes

.

I would also: Health increased to 300 New recipe: Respective smite+ +. Cost increased to 2900 Now grants 400 HP, 15 armor, +25% total health. From 300 health, +15% bonus health

Armor increased to 100 from 80, cost increased to 3100 Perhaps health increased to 500, cost increased to 2900 Health increased to 400, cost increased to 3100 health increased to 400, cost increased to 2900

i wish i was joking when i say that sometimes i build nashoors and wits end just to TRY and get past the ridiculous amounts of magic resist in game.

edit

but then there's true damage to contest. physical damage that one shots and so much more.

LordGeovanniJun 19, 20181 votes

item 3143 10 armor 200 hp we lost (i thought i had 80 armor at one point myself but the wiki says no when i checked it for my own post some weeks ago. item 3075 20 armor yes i dont think the hp makes up for it when the new passive is worse than before (bring back 15% damage reflect 2k18) and scales with armor. and item 3110 not being viable with the amount of armor pen around item 3071 item 3036 lethality, lethality runes, damage amp runes which do the same thing as armor pen/ magic pen

Magic damage from mages is not bad worse than Adc damage yes but not bad still better than assassin bruiser tanks enchater damage. item 3065 lost 15 magic resist and tanks lost a whole defensive item item 3102 for an item with worse stats that supplements other teammates offense item 3001 their own too but not as much as other teammates, and another item that only works on usually 1 spell per champion restricted to magic damage users and is easily completely bypassed by waiting one second to cast your spam spell. (this is more of a noob trap than item 3075 on Ashe ) they also got an item that has shit stats normally that increases to decent stats in a situation your fundamentally want to avoid with an active that no one wants to use because no one wants to cut already shit damage for. I also think its bad that mages have items better than regular tank items on single tanks stats while having tons of ap much more than tanks get in either resists or hp if you consider either a supliment on items like item 3102 and item 3027

There is also that riot removed tons of items with hp5 which was a meaning full in fight tank stat not so much anymore because of the level it is at. Keep in mind that not only tanks use tank stats Bruisers use them as much as tanks and rely on them more supports are practically only allowed to build psuedo tank items when tank items are already bad. Adcs mages and assassins can all opt into defense if they feel threatened. (OBVIOUSLY having to give up damage if they do so tis should be the price of safety. And i say should because they dont pay that price in kit with innate saftey with range or the many cc shied and mobility abilties they have.)

Meep ManJun 19, 20181 votes

I would NOT do that to Cinderhulk. +25% Total Health is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE buff even if the cost goes up. It would make Smite on non-Jungler Tanks mandatory almost with how much that would boost your health. At Level 18, most Tanks right now have around 2200-ish Health. That's a free 550 right there with the 400 it baseline provides increasing to 500. 1050 extra health without counting any bonus health you build.

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

Think about the average health tanks hit nowadays. I'd wager it's around 3K to 3400.

Before, with previous iterations of the jungle item and more HP on items. I could hit 5K hp, easily. And this was on low damage metas, well, compared to what we have now, (every single meta pre S6). So I was even harder to kill than I would be now with that kmuch HP

DoktorKaiserJun 19, 20182 votes

Problem is that no amount of armor helps you these days with all the true damage and armor penetration in the game atm. I mean I was fucking 550 armor Malphite and I got 5 shot by a Yi in less than 2 seconds. I don't see how 10 or 20 armor would help if 550 is meaningless.

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20181 votes

but no one but Yi has true damage

Bob the ToastrJun 19, 20182 votes

First I'll assume you mean true damage on autos because that was kind of the point but here are some counterexamples: Camille Fiora Gangplank Vayne

If you're talking about champions that have any source of true damage, there's dozens of those.

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20181 votes

Gangplank, Fiora, and Vayne aren't even picked right now.

Camille is an issue, but that's no reason to say "TRUE DAMAGE IS AN ISSUE" if its one fucking champion.

Bob the ToastrJun 19, 20184 votes

He said "but no one but Yi has true damage"

I was disproving his point

Who cares who's meta or not?

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20182 votes

because people are complaining about true damage when it isn't an issue.

DoktorKaiserJun 19, 20183 votes

{quoted}

but no one but Yi has true damage

One word - conqueror. Voila, everyone has true damage now.

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20182 votes

and Conqueror is weak

DragonSheaJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

and Conqueror is weak

For something that offers true damage that is a funny job.

DoktorKaiserJun 19, 20182 votes

{quoted}

and Conqueror is weak

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHA and thats why I see 3-5 conquerors PER GAME , every AD champion that can't abuse electrocute takes conqueror instead of it, every single bruiser or melee hyper carry takes it too, that's may just be the reason why Irelia and Aatrox 1 shot tanks now all of a sudden. I guess we aren't playing the same game...

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20181 votes

irelia and aatrox don't 1 shot tanks

also what else would bruisers take? Oh wait they take Grasp to win lane.

but Conqueror is underperforming according to playtesters.

KZ EngelJun 19, 20181 votes

ie? conq? ??????

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20181 votes

#No one builds IE

KZ EngelJun 19, 20181 votes

let's just skip over conq because that's convenient

AirKingNeoJun 19, 20181 votes

#Conqueror is weak

Troll for TrumpJun 19, 20182 votes

Alternatively, couldn't dmg be lowered...

Meep ManJun 19, 20181 votes

As much as that would be an easy solution, I doubt Riot will actually go through and do the whole "nerf all damage by 10%" thing that people seem to want. Plus, nerfing all damage by 10% has consequences people probably can't see right now.

MYSTlCFLOWJun 19, 20181 votes

yeah... and its surprising to me as a zac main just how many fighters are more tanky than me and I go full tank, garen(obviously) but then there's xin zhao and jax(he has a block but even after that) who always manage to out tank me as zac. So I definitely wouldn't mind the price to combine into a full item increasing so to make fighters and tanks have more separate roles so that fighters either have to spend 3500 to get a full tank item or opt into damage so they can't spend 4000 on an attack item and a tank item meanwhile I'm a tank who ONLY buys TANK items and get to be less tanky than those champions

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

Hell don't forget J4, he's shockingly fat for the assassin level burst he dishes out

MYSTlCFLOWJun 19, 20181 votes

who is that..? to me seeing a jarven is more rare than seeing an elder drake or... like ivern wait.. LOL WHEN DID I LAST SEE A JARVEN omg

wow... but I do know his ability gives him shield/defence

DragonSheaJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hell don't forget J4, he's shockingly fat for the assassin level burst he dishes out

He is a diver, not an assassin.

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

I didn't call him an assassin, I said he deals assassin level burst

HyquiemJun 19, 20181 votes

Then it be power farm meta in toplane, scaling bruisers would be even more unbalanced, if tanks can’t stop them early they have no chance at all but even if stats are provided, they don’t provide as much.

TheSingularityJun 19, 20182 votes

Tanks will be able to provide more effective meat shields (wardens). And are able to distract the enemy marksman/mage for significantly longer (the job of vanguards). Both jobs are very difficult as tanks melt way too fast currently

HyquiemJun 19, 20181 votes

Then it’s the same scenario but even worse for tanks, b/c before it was adc and bruiser vs tank not your going to add mages to that. And even if they are used for generic cc and shielding then they aren’t tanks. If riot invented a real tank then he would have an ability such as Braums E.

TheSingularityJun 19, 20181 votes

If every tank had braums E, the community would cry non stop. imagine all for one Yasuo .

And it's always been mages, bruisers and mages vs tanks. That's why we need meatshield in the first place. S3/4 we blocked primarily burst mages. Meta shifts have switched primarily mages/assassins for marksman

HyquiemJun 19, 20181 votes

Except Bruams E is the thing that would be the best usage of the tank class, the tanks suppose to harness the dmg for the team and if he/she can do that then this community would learn a lesson. Meta shifts but mages are still blocked by tanks primarily the burst subclass in mages. But guess what assasins don’t need to be controled by tanks, see the problem is that tanks are fighting assasins, that’s never suppose to be a tank is ment to littlery be a yield for the team, instead ranks are used as engaging tools. Yeah tanks are suppose to block burst but that doesn’t mean they go stick on its source,

Bob the ToastrJun 19, 20181 votes

Yes yes yes. Please.

ParoeJun 19, 20181 votes

Are... are all of you in support of this dumb? Tanks are NOT, and never have been, a problem. Take your circle jerk and shove it elsewhere.

Meep ManJun 19, 20181 votes

This isn't a straight buff. It's an early game nerf in fact for many. However, that's not where Tanks suffer currently. In fact, many are oppressive right now early game, but fall off hard late game.

mack9112Jun 19, 20181 votes

Why not come out with some tank item that makes you take reduced damage but makes your autos do percent less or reduce your ad or something.

Meep ManJun 19, 20181 votes

item 3193 kind of already does that since it keeps your current health percentage. It's effectively like taking 50% reduced damage if three enemies are nearby.

mack9112Jun 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Emperor Churger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YxBMNZ1k,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-06-19T21:06:43.465+0000)

kind of already does that since it keeps your current health percentage. It's effectively like taking 50% reduced damage if three enemies are nearby.

Ya but where tanks struggle is the early game and generally that is not gonna be the first item you pick up. If there core jungle item could have some survivability added to it I feel that would go a long way to improving tanks in the jungle role.

LordGeovanniJun 19, 20181 votes

Finally some one else. Ive been saying this for good 2 years. I dont care for cheaper less effective items.