I would rather these ADC's be strong than these ADC's (It actually works!)

Subject 5·Jul 12, 2018·49 votes·13,394 views

I would rather these champions be strong

Than these champions being strong

This is strictly because the top list can be locked down easier, because most of them lack mobility they SHOULD have more damage than their counterparts. The bottom list not only has mobility but some have stealth or huge gimmicks in their kit, making them snowball easier and have bigger survival rates. It's literally hell to VS an ADC that is on the bottom list in comparison to the top list.

But why do champions no longer pay for their huge mobility? That should be a factor. Even if Ashe has utility she's a troll pick, if she gets ahead it's easy as hell to shut her down.

97 Comments

ReklaimerJul 12, 201833 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think some people got the wrong idea about your post, and think you are suggesting that mobile ADC's be less effective than immobile ADC's.

You mean there should be trade offs to being mobile. Someone with LESS options to outplay or escape should deal more damage for the sake of balance. If you would prefer to be mobile, then you should deal less damage than someone with less option survive.

If that's what you're saying, then I agree. It would make balancing easier, and give more variation for team compositions. If the team has a lot of peel (takes or shield casters with low damage), then it would be optimal to play someone like Varus who should be able to deal a high amount of DPS. If you have a team of split pushers and assassins, it would be optimal for you to be able to peel for yourself. There are other reasons you would want to play a mobile ADC over an immobile one, but these are just couple examples.

SalsonJul 12, 20182 votes

You mean there should be trade offs to being mobile. Someone with LESS options to outplay or escape should deal more damage for the sake of balance.

Not really, look where Twitch went. Immobile champs like Varus, Ashe or Jhin have a combination of good damage and decent utility. Not Support level ofc, but still decent, giving us a 'balanced' 70% carry + 30% design. Twitch has RETARDED damage and nothing else, which is a really unhealthy design.

This applies to every lane to be honest, I'd rather have Kled than Tryn and Kindred than Yi.

ThefrostyvikingJul 13, 20182 votes

Twitches damage wouldnt be anywhere near as a big of a problem as it is if he didnt have his stealth.

Biggest complaint with him is always "he poped out flanking or behind us and 3-shot the backline and we had no chance to react".

Subject 5Jul 12, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think some people got the wrong idea about your post, and think you are suggesting that mobile ADC's be less effective than immobile ADC's.

You mean there should be trade offs to being mobile. Someone with LESS options to outplay or escape should deal more damage for the sake of balance. If you would prefer to be mobile, then you should deal less damage than someone with less option survive.

If that's what you're saying, then I agree. It would make balancing easier, and give more variation for team compositions. If the team has a lot of peel (takes or shield casters with low damage), then it would be optimal to play someone like Varus who should be able to deal a high amount of DPS. If you have a team of split pushers and assassins, it would be optimal for you to be able to peel for yourself. There are other reasons you would want to play a mobile ADC over an immobile one, but these are just couple examples.

Yep basically.

You should have to pay for having mobility, being able to have your cake and eating it just means that one person won't have a cake. You just stole that cake from them. You thief.

LordGeovanniJul 13, 20181 votes

I agree but Miss Fortune is Highly mobile with 125 extra movement speed that she can reset when it gets knocked off that is also effected by the bonus movement speed from zeal items.

LimrickJul 12, 201816 votes

Xayah has no mobility. Her ultimate is very strong, yes, but it doesn't make her any more mobile.

Subject 5Jul 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Xayah has no mobility. Her ultimate is very strong, yes, but it doesn't make her any more mobile.

I put her on the list only for the sake of removing herself from the game is basically how her ultimate works, it gives security and safety that mobile champions have.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 12, 20186 votes

But Caitlyn has net, Corki has valkyrie, sivir has spell shield.

3TWarriorJul 13, 20181 votes

with caitlynn, more people are concerned about her traps than her net

corki's valkyrie has a really long cooldown, his range is one of the lowest of all marksmen, he is one of the few ability based marksmen in the game

Sivir...Sivir does have a spell shield, but that's really it. She has one active ability, one passive damage ability, low attack range and her ultimate is entirely about stats. She pays hard for that spell shield at the cost of her versatility. probably the only way she has an advantage over other marksmen is that she is one of the few if only to have an auto attack reset in her kit

5000000000000000Jul 13, 20184 votes

Her passive also gives movement speed upon hitting enemy champions. Not saying she's mobile, but she's not as immobile a other immobile adcs.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 14, 20181 votes

And xayahs defensive cd is longer than corkis and her range is shorter.

OleandervineJul 13, 20181 votes

I agree, Xayah is incredibly immobile, and her ultimate is not even considered mobility. She needs to stop and shoot you to kill you, and rooting her or stunning her is a death sentence for her.

Sp33d Zer0Jul 14, 20181 votes

Rooting/stunning (insert any marksman here) is death sentence for them

LUXANNA HOSHIDOJul 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Xayah has no mobility. Her ultimate is very strong, yes, but it doesn't make her any more mobile.

she doesn't have mobility but her ultimate invulnerability and the root make her really slippery

ElohavenJul 12, 20189 votes

As a Vayne main, Vayne is never strong and should never be strong.

She should be viable and be the best ADC late-game if you're mechanically adept with only Twitch outscaling her. Only time Vayne's been strong is due to number mistakes such as pre-8.1 and season 7 - she was reasonably balanced with only a 49% or lower winrate.

Also, Draven should NOT be strong. He is actually too much of a lane bully and is mechanically challenging. He should be viable with his mains but not meta. His kit very toxic and overbearing when strong.

MF also has the same issue as Draven - Conqueror and Dark Harvest show how bad it can get. Caitlyn makes most ADCs unviable and her design is toxic. Riot admitted it. Once she's meta, all ADCs go away. Plus, as a late-game ADC and lane bully - her being strong is BAD. Ashe being meta is actually horrid. She's been weak for a while, but you don't want to see an Ashe meta. You will be perma-slowed and depleted.

These champions have compensations for their mobility. Just because a champion is mobile doesn't mean they're necessarily not healthier than an immobile one. (Draven being meta is something you do NOT want to see). Look at their base stats just to see the truth.

Also, you add Xayah being strong is bad but add Draven, MF, Cait, Jinx, Graves, and Ashe who are all problematic when they become meta. You haven't seen their metas or no how their kits will be so overwhelming when they're the most viable option.

And as I'm reading and editing this, I see more incorrect stuff in the comments.

CertainlyT did not create Kai'Sa BTW and this hints that you're not that knowledgeable on the topic. Most ADCs should never actually be meta. Healthiest ADC meta would be Sivir or Corki.

And some of the immobile champions have better trade-offs than the mobile ones. For example, Miss Fortune and Vayne.

Vayne:

When meta, cannot burst early game. Only scales fast and is a number check
When nerfed, her kit is balanced for a while until more large scale changes and creeping effects from Patches
Most attack speed reliant ADC to get Silver Bolt procs
Most item-reliant ADC due to attack-speed and W synergy with items
Build set is diverse to optimize for different teams
- Tank Vayne
- Critical Vayne
- Guinsoos/On-hit Vayne
Cannot build lethality due to gold inefficiency (Duskblade doesn't work)
Youmuus also a delay to her strength(AS) and lethality only is for the early to mid-game
Pays range, damage, and has greater risk for mobility

Miss Fortune:

Early game bully with great scaling
Deals significant damage and bursts faster than Vayne
Only needs to build pure damage, build diversity is lower
Much more team-fight optimal
When meta, much more oppressive than Vayne
Kit is poorly designed compared to Vayne's
The amount of MF metas and abuse cases support this
Despite true damage, Vayne is more transparent and has less range if you count abilities
Only payment is mobility for damage

ThefrostyvikingJul 13, 20181 votes

Actually ashe, varus and trist can all manage to be viable when cait is, i particularly had no issue playing Ashe even when cait has been good.

Somebody Love MeJul 14, 20181 votes

Ashe has recently been seen as a counterpick to Cait. I don't know why, besides maybe having the highest range below Cait.

ThefrostyvikingJul 14, 20182 votes

Its probably because Ashe´s own range ensures she can avoid poke that others could not, she can also poke back with her W and post 6 she can easily hard engage on the cait who for her range is extremely squishy.

Those are the reasons i started picking Ashe into cait^^

Of course later on with 3 crit items a headshot from Cait is absolutely devastating but Ashe isnt good at anything like 1v1´s anyhow so letting a tank soak the headshots and picking out targets with her own ulti is the way to go.

FlameHalbrdOkidoJul 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

As a Vayne main, Vayne is never strong and should never be strong.

nice insightful post, i wonder if Riot would chose to make Cait a lane bully or lane game scaler, and how they would go about making sure she's either one or the other

NA DarklarikJul 12, 20188 votes

Corki and Jhin should be on the bot list.

Corki has a dash and Jhin's mobility once he gets a few items is insane. Dude is constantly running at around 450 - 500 mov speed.

QuortJul 13, 20187 votes

No, thank you. I hate Draven passionately and I never want him to be strong. :T

ankoanko19Jul 13, 20186 votes

You'd want Caitlyn to be strong over Lucian? What a biased thread, just because Lucian is meta and Cait is not? At least Lucian is only mobile because he has a very low AA range while Caitlyn can both be mobile, have the best base AA range of all ADC's and have fucking CC on her kit on top of all of that.

D357R0Y3RJul 12, 20185 votes

Lucian pays for his mobility by having the most garbage range of all adcs

this thread is bias

AimléssJul 12, 20186 votes

Wow, a tad less range, but if I get jumped on I can just dash away, use a couple of abilities and dash again and again.

That's so less safe than an immobile champ who gets jumped on and just dies. As if Fizz Rengar Leblanc actually noticed that extra range anyway, just to name a few.

D357R0Y3RJul 13, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mediocre Sniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-07-12T20:16:50.410+0000)

Wow, a tad less range, but if I get jumped on I can just dash away, use a couple of abilities and dash again and again.

that's good? that's the trade off, he counters people who jump into him and is dogshit against high range mages/adcs

ask lucian mains how they do against caitlyn

AimléssJul 13, 20182 votes

Why do you guys always bring up people's mains in your points? So annoying, this is why no one uses the boards on their main account.

Do you actually think 50-100 extra range is gonna make a difference when dealing with a mage? Cause it doesn't.

D357R0Y3RJul 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mediocre Sniper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-13T02:33:10.582+0000)

Do you actually think 50-100 extra range is gonna make a difference when dealing with a mage? Cause it doesn't.

historically just a minus 25 range on a champion was a huge disaster and gutted champions

so if you remove 50 100 range, your champion is going to be UNPLAYABLE against champions that used to have the same range than you you ask me if 50-100 extra range is goanna make a difference? you can answer to this question yourself

Daddy AntsJul 12, 20185 votes

Aww downvoted already?

TLDR of this thread is as follows

If you agree with the OP, You'll get up voted.

If you don't then you're down voted.

mike in the boxJul 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Aww downvoted already?

TLDR of ALL threads is as follows

If you agree with the OP, You'll get up voted.

If you don't then you're down voted.

There fixed it for you

My Waifu VanillaJul 13, 20181 votes

That is how a vote works. I don't understand the problem.

Rathar DashingJul 12, 20185 votes

How is Xayah more mobile than Corki

Arcane Blue BoiJul 13, 20183 votes

tell me young man, if you're up against 2 divers and 1 assassin, who would you rather pick

saltranJul 13, 20184 votes

That's not an answer, being mobile=/=having self peel

And well, you would never have to choose between Xayah and Corky considering that Corky botlane sucks and Xayah only goes bot.

Noor SakataJul 13, 20185 votes

No but , I really prefer Lucian Meta more than Caitlyn meta , not like she is mobile or something , her E makes her harder to reach , and she has a very long range , but Lucian has to get closer with his E because his range is really short

ankoanko19Jul 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2018-07-13T13:51:42.456+0000)

No but , I really prefer Lucian Meta more than meta , not like she is mobile or something , her E makes her harder to reach , and she has a very long range , but Lucian has to get closer with his E because his range is really short

Yes thank you! Like how can one pick Cait over Lucian? Lucians dash doesnt slow you nor does he have built in CC that is annoying as fuck to walk by and can be used to zoning. Nevermind the super long range.

Noor SakataJul 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Yes thank you! Like how can one pick Cait over Lucian? Lucians dash doesnt slow you nor does he have built in CC that is annoying as fuck to walk by and can be used to zoning. Nevermind the super long range.

Yeah tbh as Mage and support main , no matter how Lucian meta gets , he was never a hyper carry champion , he has to go in and do some plays , but he was never strong or broken , he was always okay , while Cait can headshot you twice and you die ... even now when she gets items lol , her winrate is bad because her early is bad , but cmon a lot of mages have been adapting this for a while they nerfed Lucian because they thought he is strong , while he was just okay but a better choice than other marksmen who got gutted

Daddy AntsJul 12, 20183 votes

Vayne 's trade off for her mobility is the fact she's 100% bound to 550 range and auto attacks are 80%+ of her damage. She has no ability damage or damage that exceeds 550 range.

Tristana Legit shouldn't have resets. Resets is a mechanic that belongs to Assassin's, not Marksmen.

Kaisa shouldn't get a 1k shield from pressing R late game.

Subject 5Jul 12, 20184 votes

{quoted}

's trade off for her mobility is the fact she's 100% bound to 550 range and auto attacks are 80%+ of her damage. She has no ability damage or damage that exceeds 550 range.

Legit shouldn't have resets. Resets is a mechanic that belongs to Assassin's, not Marksmen.

shouldn't get a 1k shield from pressing R late game.

I'm pretty sure you were downvoted because you started off saying 80% of Vaynes damage come from her auto attacks. Vayne is an AA prioritized champion, all of the damage they put out is entirely AA based except for condemn.

Why can't an ADC have resets though? I think it makes the game fun but Tristana should have to pay for her mobility.

Kaisa I feel like CertainlyT just thought of Thresh and decided to make an ADC variant of him. I mean what doesn't this person have? A steroid, percent damage, mobility boost, a massive dash, long range procing that exceeds even Jhin, evolving abilities like Kha and the ability to build AP / AD without trade off for damage. (AD = DPS, AP = Some DPS / Burst) the list just keeps going on and on. Where is the trade off for having ALL of this in their kit?

I mean jeez man. Look at Jinx and say who'd be a better pick.

Daddy AntsJul 12, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2018-07-12T21:43:02.083+0000)

I feel like CertainlyT just thought of Thresh and decided to make an ADC variant of him. I mean what doesn't this person have? A steroid, percent damage, mobility boost, a massive dash, long range procing that exceeds even Jhin, evolving abilities like Kha and the ability to build AP / AD without trade off for damage. (AD = DPS, AP = Some DPS / Burst) the list just keeps going on and on. Where is the trade off for having ALL of this in their kit?

CTT didn't make Kai'Sa.

Riot Jag did (The guy who made Camille)

HayaishiJul 12, 20183 votes

Xayah over Draven and Lucian over Jinx and you have a deal.

Draven top 3 toxic ADC design. Right up there with Twitch and Kalista.

Jinx is just completely braindead, her kit does everything for you, atleast Lucian requires mechanics.

Arcane Blue BoiJul 13, 20182 votes

atleast jinx requires you to not mess up on your positioning, because you dont have a dash every 5 sec

My Waifu VanillaJul 13, 20182 votes

You clearly haven't seen clips of Lucian dashing forward and instantly dying.....wasn't Wildturtle infamous for it?

saltranJul 13, 20181 votes

Doublelift against Viktor's SSG Crown, a death that cost them not getting Baron, losing the game and eventually don't making out of groups.

Wacky9Jul 13, 20183 votes

This is terrible for so many reasons.

Since when does Jhin not have mobility? You can get 500+ MS with him and stormrazor and phantom dancer and he has a root and a slowing trap and a slowing ultimate

Jinx has her passive and a long range slow and a rooting trap

MF has her W

Sivir's ult gives her and her team a ton of MS

Graves literally has a dash that gives him armor and reloads his gun

Ashe slows people with each basic attack which is just as annoying as mobility when she's chasing you down and giving you a good impalement

Kalista has a lot less mobility than anyone else up there. Kindred snowballs for many reasons, but her dash isn't really one of them her passive is. Twitch is a murderous lane bully, but his stealth is incredibly important to his kit. Lucian has almost no AA range and can be easily CC'ed if he uses his dash as a gapcloser. Many of those champions you hate aren't as bad to play against as MF or a good Draven.

The tradeoff for mobility is simple. Low CC.

Xayah needs to throw down three feathers right behind someone to get her root, which is difficult unless they're right in your face.

Vayne has Condemn which is pretty good but also very conditional.

Twitch has a small aoe slow that isn't great and is hard to peel with

Tristana has a medium slow that is connected to her leap, making it bad for peeling

Quinn's CC is pretty annoying.

Lucian has no CC

Kindred has two slows, but they aren't great and you can't peel with them

Kalista has a small slow that never gets above 50%.

Kai'sa is annoying. But she doesn't have any CC and you can't peel with her ult (normally).

Ezreal has no CC.

Also Urgot is crying now

Some Noob DudeJul 13, 20182 votes

Caitlyn as a fuckton of range, a dash away that slows and allows her do to tons of damage if she hits it, can block areas of with traps and is oppressive? Why would anyone want that cancer to be viable?

I'd rather fight Xayah, Lucian or Ezreal.

Stars ShaperJul 13, 20181 votes

The thing is that Caitlyn obscures any other pick when she is strong.

Subject 5Jul 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2018-07-13T18:16:47.067+0000)

The thing is that Caitlyn obscures any other pick when she is strong.

I don't remember Caitlyn ever being a highly contested pick, hell her ban rate never suggests that she was ever a problem. The reason why I prefer caitlyn to be strong is because a lot like an Artillery Mage when you close in on Caitlyn then she's in a lot of trouble. Like most Artillery Mages she has tools to prevent that but are easily negated by picks that can beat her down.

When caitlyn uses her net, I usually always switch targets and chase her down for the next 10-15 seconds because of the CDR on it. She's siege orientated and it shows with her strength and weaknesses. I can work with that when she's weak or strong.

Stars ShaperJul 13, 20182 votes

You missed a lot of matches before Rift Rivals and even during worlds iirc.

Caitlyn wins by simply rightclicking getting pentas from a mile away and she can even jump backwards if found out of position. She and Sivir are the most boring and udneserving picks ever.

Subject 5Jul 13, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yv72EEz8,comment-id=001b00000000,timestamp=2018-07-13T22:39:57.761+0000)

You missed a lot of matches before Rift Rivals and even during worlds iirc.

Caitlyn wins by simply rightclicking getting pentas from a mile away and she can even jump backwards if found out of position. She and Sivir are the most boring and udneserving picks ever.

Actually I've watched all worlds from 5 years ago up to now, so you don't really need to tell me what I am or what I'm not missing. You can have your opinion but Caitlyn has always been in the middle spot, sometimes going in between high priority to lower priority. Even then, she's not a highly contested pick / ban because she's like the other non-mobile ADC's: easy to jump on.

Yeah, Cait has a jump back but the cooldown is such a huge problem that it doesn't declare Cait a mobile ADC. It's a utility because she's a utility ADC. It's an absolutely MASSIVE window of opportunity.