Patch notes are out and unsurprisingly free win Lee Sin hasn't been touched just like how things have been for the past 3 seasons. Guess Morello chickened out a second time after seeing the lee sin circlejerk on reddit.
What im referring to: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2yjerc/lee_sin_nerf_coming_soon_confirmed_by_morello/
Risurin14 votes[{quoted}](name=Yeezus of Ionia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YsbYF5sB,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-03-24T22:13:44.290+0000)
Patch notes are out and unsurprisingly free win Lee Sin hasn't been touched just like how things have been for the past 3 seasons. Guess Morello chickened out a second time after seeing the lee sin circlejerk on reddit.
What im referring to: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2yjerc/lee_sin_nerf_coming_soon_confirmed_by_morello/
funny you mention circlejerk, because this post is also one. Lee isnt even top tier anymore, he is just a risky early game jungler. he get outscale by everyone, he doesnt really get much from the tank meta, aside that tank are better then him at tanking and CCs, and in some cases even damage.
Honestly right now, almost whenever you think about playing lee sin, you could go reksai or nidalee, or even sejuani and get about as good result early, and have a better mid-late game.
Bears Dont Care4 votesfunny you mention circlejerk, because this post is also one. Lee isnt even top tier anymore, he is just a risky early game jungler. he get outscale by everyone, he doesnt really get much from the tank meta, aside that tank are better then him at tanking and CCs, and in some cases even damage.
No tank jungler competes with lee sin in terms.of damage. His base and ratios rival talon and zed, one of the most bursty champions in the game. Tankwose he has a shield and sustain, he has incredible peel as well. Tank junglers that beat him at being tanky dont win at damage.
Ever.
Honestly right now, almost whenever you think about playing lee sin, you could go reksai or nidalee, or even sejuani and get about as good result early, and have a better mid-late game.
Nidalee is a carry, she lacks the utility lee sin possesses. Reksai lacks his.mobility and damage and has lee peeling ability. Suggestimg reksai is better is silly
Risurin8 votesNo tank jungler competes with lee sin in terms.of damage. His base and ratios rival talon and zed, one of the most bursty champions in the game. Tankwose he has a shield and sustain, he has incredible peel as well. Tank junglers that beat him at being tanky dont win at damage.
Ever.
huh what ? Sejuani and amumu deal more damage mid-late by far with some magic penetration, gromp and cinderhulk. Shyvana is another example of a tanky champion that also deal a lot of damage. What you looking at is the burst Lee Sin few spell have, and assume that his overall damage output is that great. In teamfights, mid-late game, tank jungler out damage him, out CC him, his "incredible peel" is nothing to all the CC of above champion and most tanks (nautilus, sion, cho'gath, zac, etc). You could even go tank Vi and have more damage and CC and Peel and Shield then Lee.
Nidalee is a carry, she lacks the utility lee sin possesses. Reksai lacks his.mobility and damage and has lee peeling ability. Suggestimg reksai is better is silly
Lee Sin is also a Carry oriented jungler, at least early game. Nidalee lack direct flashy utility, but her heal and AS buff is pretty good for the adc, her traps are nice for vision control, on top of her siegeing power. Rek'Sai already has enough mobility, more wouldnt really benefit her much. a good Rek'Sai knockup is so much easier to land then a good Lee Sin kick. Dont forget Rek'Sai also can easily travel the map to contest objectives, reinforce roams, push objectives, splitpush, escape, w/e you want from it fast travel really. Dont forget also more vision control from the tremor sense passive, which is very strong at all stage of the game. On top of that, a lot of early damage, from an auto-reset that deals AoE, true damage bite, skill shot poke and of course unborrow. Rek'Sai is more often then otherwise a better champion choice.
I'm not saying Lee Sin is bad, he is still Lee Sin. He is just far from being the best jungler choice out there.
Chessburger5 votesRek'sai is definitely better. Most of the tanks overall are better than lee. You're living in the past with these complaints.
BlackRaven5 votesNo tank jungler competes with lee sin in terms.of damage. His base and ratios rival talon and zed, one of the most bursty champions in the game. Tankwose he has a shield and sustain, he has incredible peel as well. Tank junglers that beat him at being tanky dont win at damage.
Ever.
Nidalee is a carry, she lacks the utility lee sin possesses. Reksai lacks his.mobility and damage and has lee peeling ability. Suggestimg reksai is better is silly
sejuani vs lee.sej has cinderhulk, lee has devourer. wow lee can jump to a ward, sej can tank everything and kill everyone. DAMN NERF THIS PIECE OF SHIT MONK.
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Maximum Lee Sin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YsbYF5sB,comment-id=000600000002,timestamp=2015-03-25T01:52:28.510+0000)
sejuani vs lee.sej has cinderhulk, lee has devourer. wow lee can jump to a ward, sej can tank everything and kill everyone. DAMN NERF THIS PIECE OF SHIT MONK.
You did not counter anything said. At all. Talking damage not dueling.potential which is where most tanks excel.
Furthermore, no...amumu does not del.more damage than lee sin unless he has a ton of ap in which case it is only fair to do the same for.lee sin Let alone juggernaut is the old ancient golem with a sunfire cape effect.
Tank junglers were made.more viable since their endgame is better
Si like reksai but her late.game isnt as good as lee sin who can do a bit more with his kit. The issur is that people look st lee sin and compare him with other junglers accord III ng to their streng hs.
I.e " he isnt as tanky as maokai". Well.he is.more.mobile, has excellent peel and good damage.
Lee sin isnt the best at eveeything duh. He doesnt need to be.
DomainSpecific4 votesAnd here, everyone, you see a Bronze III (Annoth84) guy arguing with a Diamond V (Maximum Lee Sin).
Amumu can deal way more damage than Lee Sin.
What can Lee Sin do in 5 seconds? Q once, E once and autoattack. Assuming Q lands, that is 540 + 280 Bonus AD + autoattacks. Amumu? 15% max hp with 120 base dmg, 280 with his Q, and he can E twice for 350 dmg total.
Also, see what happens here? Lee Sin has to build AD to deal damage, while Amumu can build tank and still deal damage because his W scale with enemies' hp. Amumu may struggle early, but mid game on, he is insanely powerful even when behind (that's why he has 55% win rate).
Bears Dont Care1 votesAnd here, everyone, you see a Bronze III (Annoth84) guy arguing with a Diamond V (Maximum Lee Sin).
I have argued with some of the best fighting game players and been right, and just an FYI, I intentionally let my rank drop.
Amumu can deal way more damage than Lee Sin.
What can Lee Sin do in 5 seconds? Q once, E once and autoattack. Assuming Q lands, that is 540 + 280 Bonus AD + autoattacks. Amumu? 15% max hp with 120 base dmg, 280 with his Q, and he can E twice for 350 dmg total.
Where are you getting your numbers?
Lee Sin damage 1140 base damage + 480% AD + 8% missing health.
Amumu 805 + 200% AP ( 100 AP per 1% increase on W) In order for Amumu to deal 15% of max HP with each tick of W, he needs 1200 AP. He doesn't ever get that much AP.
Let us assume a single damage item for the both of them yes?
Lee Sin: 1140 base + 192 + 8% missing target health
Amumu You can choose rabadon if you so desire in which case 150 AP so we'll do that for laughs cause we're assuming tanky mumu.
805+ 300 + 4% target's maximum health per tick.
Now, if we consider over a 5 second period on an udyr target.
5 ticks of tantrum = 364.16 +1105 = 1469.16 damage. Add in 2 auto attacks to account 1705 damage.
No Amumu cannot E twice. Not sure what makes you think he can do such a thing let alone achieve 15% maximum hp removal a a tank but whatevs.
Lee sin damage in 5 seconds
1421 (rotation considering the 8% missing health) + 3 auto attacks (remember lee sin has that AS increase on his passive)
1889 damage. Lee Sin deals less damage how?
Let alone your criteria is flawed. 5 seconds is an incredibly long time period. You need to take into account the target's health (i used udyr), and naturally amumu's damage will increase with the target; but hey lee sin has access to botrk so we can do that if you desired.
On top of that, you gave completely inaccurate numbers for amumu. 15% max HP? From where? 120 base damage? From where?
Gee, I am so glad someone from hgh rank ; put me in my place; here I thought using basic math was a good idea!
Also, see what happens here? Lee Sin has to build AD to deal damage, while Amumu can build tank and still deal damage because his W scale with enemies' hp. Amumu may struggle early, but mid game on, he is insanely powerful even when behind (that's why he has 55% win rate).
Your platinum V ranks suggests you are good at pushing buttons, but not at knowledge. Firstly, Amumu's win rate of 55% speaks across ALL tiers. If you look specifically at platinum and up, his win rate dances between 46% and 50%. Lee Sin remains a steady 46% throughout platinum and master.
This suggests that whle Amumu has a higher win rate, slightly, in the upper echelon's of rank, it isn't significant. Furthermore, Amumu is easier to play than Lee Sin, and while he can be punished harder for his mistakes, his has stronger initiation and can help end a game more easily than Lee Sin.
Lee Sin is still considered a stronger jungler, however, simply because his overall gameplay is superior.
Is Lee Sin broken? No. Is he overcentralizing? Yes. Does he need a rework? Not for what people think.
Oh, but I do thank you for "teaching" me something with your superior rank. It was truly enlightening. Kappa/
Spicy Rice1 votesfunny you mention circlejerk, because this post is also one. Lee isnt even top tier anymore, he is just a risky early game jungler. he get outscale by everyone, he doesnt really get much from the tank meta, aside that tank are better then him at tanking and CCs, and in some cases even damage.
Honestly right now, almost whenever you think about playing lee sin, you could go reksai or nidalee, or even sejuani and get about as good result early, and have a better mid-late game.
AAAAAAAND this is why Lee Sin top is best korea.
Risurin1 votes[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YsbYF5sB,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2015-03-25T02:55:07.959+0000)
AAAAAAAND this is why Lee Sin top is best korea.
Not sure if you mean Lee Sin is the top pick in korea, or that Lee Sin Top Lane is the best in korea he is neither tho. Lee sin Top is just the same as jungle minus the roam. You are very strong early, and need to do things to make sure your are ahead, because once you fall, you are basically useless.
Speaking of Korea! We all know how much LCK (League Champion Korea) value Lee Sin right ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/308o94/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_10/ Not pick/ban in the first game, lost 1/8/5 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zskez/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ banned in both games.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zoysu/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ not pick/ban in the first game, lost 2/3/9 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zooy0/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ lost 3/4/5 in the first, lost 0/5/5 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zgi4m/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ not pick/ban in the first game, lost 3/2/2 in the second, not pick/ban in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y8mj5/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ not pick/ban in the first 2 game, won 5/3/14 in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y8anm/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ banned in the first game, lost 3/2/5 in the second
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y4u9w/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ not pick/ban in the first 2 games, lost 1/5/3 in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y4hbc/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ won 7/2/16 in the first game, lost 1/4/5 in the second
so out of 21 relatively recent games in korea : 2 win, 8 lost, banned in 3 games and not pick/banned in 8 games not exactly what you expect from a top tier op freelo champion.
Spicy Rice1 votesNot sure if you mean Lee Sin is the top pick in korea, or that Lee Sin Top Lane is the best in korea he is neither tho. Lee sin Top is just the same as jungle minus the roam. You are very strong early, and need to do things to make sure your are ahead, because once you fall, you are basically useless.
Speaking of Korea! We all know how much LCK (League Champion Korea) value Lee Sin right ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/308o94/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_10/ Not pick/ban in the first game, lost 1/8/5 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zskez/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ banned in both games.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zoysu/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ not pick/ban in the first game, lost 2/3/9 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zooy0/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ lost 3/4/5 in the first, lost 0/5/5 in the second.
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2zgi4m/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_9/ not pick/ban in the first game, lost 3/2/2 in the second, not pick/ban in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y8mj5/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ not pick/ban in the first 2 game, won 5/3/14 in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y8anm/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ banned in the first game, lost 3/2/5 in the second
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y4u9w/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ not pick/ban in the first 2 games, lost 1/5/3 in the third
http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2y4hbc/spoiler_ogn_spring_postmatch_discussion_week_8/ won 7/2/16 in the first game, lost 1/4/5 in the second
so out of 21 relatively recent games in korea : 2 win, 8 lost, banned in 3 games and not pick/banned in 8 games not exactly what you expect from a top tier op freelo champion.
I was making a joke (team best korea).
JustMyBassCannon12 votesFunny thing, buffing the tank junglers with Cinderhulk doesn't buff Lee Sin. So, instead of bringing him down, they brought others up.
Don't worry, they'll probably nerf Lee Sin again at some point, and you'll still say it's not enough because he's still viable. Like everyone who complains about Lee Sin.
Åron8 votesI don't think Lee Sin needs a nerf anymore since Patch 5.5. Since tank junglers are now very viable.
LoLKiru7 votesMy guess is either they chickened out, or they want to wait and see the state the jungle is in after the changes to the other jungle items (notably Poacher's Knife, and Skirmishers Sabre; I think they talked about changing the Magus enchant as well) I believe those changes were set to begin in 5.7 (not sure if they'd be done by then though)
Either is possible honestly, all we can do is wait.
Matthias91195 votesI didn't see anything "confirmed" there?
Lee got a significant nerf in the middle of S4, and honestly, I haven't had an issue with his overall power level since then.
His issue is that he's very safe, because he has few bad matchups and basically no truly awful ones. That's why you see him so much in competitive play. But you can't fix that with numbers, he needs a rework or to have power shifted around dramatically in his kit.
junglerboy163 votesYou don't seem to understand how the PBE cycle works. That statement said that they were planning on releasing some changes next patch (which for them was the one after the one coming out in a day or so), right in the middle of the PBE cycle that lead up to patch 5.6 in a few days. 5.7 hasn't even started on the PBE yet, and if they are going to nerf/rework him, it will probably be in there.
That said, there is hardly a reason to nerf Lee sin currently. He is by no measure a top tier pick right now, and there are several much stronger champions in the jungle than him, in all skill brackets across all regions. He can still jungle effectively, but he got an indirect nerf when they buffed up the champs that he was able to counter most (namely weak early game tanks).
DanLikesBacon3 votesLee sin doesnt need nerfs lol. what he needs is a rework so he has clear strengths and weaknesses. At the moment Tank junglers are bloody op so i dont know why you are complaining about lee sin of all thinks when sejuani exists in her current state.
Åron3 votesLol I love how everyone who is saying that Lee Sin doesn't need nerfs is getting downvoted.
Silents4293 votesOh where would we be without this forums daily complaint about Lee.
Xys3 votes[{quoted}](name=Yeezus of Ionia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YsbYF5sB,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-03-24T22:13:44.290+0000)
Patch notes are out and unsurprisingly free win Lee Sin hasn't been touched just like how things have been for the past 3 seasons. Guess Morello chickened out a second time after seeing the lee sin circlejerk on reddit.
What im referring to: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2yjerc/lee_sin_nerf_coming_soon_confirmed_by_morello/
I like how you say "the circlejerk on reddit" without realizing that the "OGM DAE LEE OP XDDD" circlejerk is massive. Like seriously, learn to play around it instead of flaunting your bronze icon and saying "woW HE KILLED ME NERF THIS SHIT FK RIOT."
Yimmortal1 votesumad salty lee sin main? i am plat btw
Xys3 votes[{quoted}](name=Yeezus of Ionia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YsbYF5sB,comment-id=00110000,timestamp=2015-03-25T08:53:09.392+0000)
umad salty lee sin main? i am plat btw
i don't even main lee, and plat is still trash so try to cry less and you might be able to climb more.
Jungle Lux God2 votesTechnically, Cinderhulk was a big nerf to Lee because so many tank junglers were buffed to or beyond Lee Sin's level.
Does Riot need to nerf what is at an appropriate level right now?
IziMytTJd72 votesNot needed. Lee Sin is about as balanced as a champion will ever get.
Rinky Dinky2 votesI am gonna go ahead and mention that by buffing literally every other jungler, Lee sin is no longer overpowered.
"What do you mean? The blind monk is OP! Outclasses everyone!"
That is no longer the case. Lee Sin was Only OP because he outclassed everyone. Now, he is a Niche PIck, where he belongs.
Right now, you pick Lee Sin if you want a flexible early game duelist who can transition into an amazing peel tank. Before you picked Lee because who else would you pick?
Lee is fine now, my friends.
My only balance concern at the moment is Nidalee, and only because of her invisible spears. Fix that shit please.
Zed really is not that big of a deal either. He does alot of things efficiently, but is shut down so hard by items and certain champions ( 
) it is crazy. The pro's have finally realized this, and due to more than only 20 champions being viable, they are actually counterpicking him now.
Athenes was buffed as well, which means mages are going to have an easier time in lane.
Daedalus8712 votesLee Sin doesn't need nerfs.
He needs a rework as his kit has no weakness.
Seviang2 votesfree win Lee Sin
Works 45% of the time, 100% of the time.
Kuroi861 votesA. In buffing tank junglers, Riot ghost nerfed Lee Sin.
B. Riot has made it clear that they want the time to work on changes before implementing anything to see if the changes fit what they want.
Chromatic Eagle1 votesI'd rather they rework him, because some of the valid points people have been saying will still exist. Even Riot has admitted how he has everything.
Subject 51 votesIrelia was a bigger issue, as you can see she was causing devestating damage to the LCS community of the 1% and had a win ratio of 100%.
Athelious1 votesI was wondering how long the forums would last without posting a topic about Lee Sin seems idiots still think he's season 4 status anyhow though i am impressed how long these forums lasted before bringing him up.
Schteltzer1 votesbetter than the circlejerk on here
Solidair31 votesHe's probably going to need more than a numbers adjustment. I bet we won't see the changes for a while...
Probably some light nerfs in th e meantime if they do at all
Incognonymous1 votesCinderhulk did nothing to a tank junglers first clear. Nothing. Zero. Nada. When is a Lee Sin invade going to happen, and likely result in a kill? On the first clear. He clears his first buff faster than you, meets you at your second, kills you, and takes it. I've had it happen to me a dozen times. I've done it myself as Lee a dozen times. Jungle tank meta changes nothing for Lee Sin, in fact, it makes his early invades that much more potent than say they normally would be against an Udyr or Yi or virtually anyone who might actually have a fair shot at fighting back.
Lee Sin is still relevant. Stop saying he isn't. Stop saying he's "niche"-- he's the antiniche jungler.
warpenguin5551 votesTry warding, you will see him coming 9/10 times. the 1/10 is where you are so focused on farming you forget to look at the minimap, we've all been there
Risurin1 votesoh. sorry i didnt see it!