Don't buff current Zac; just revert his ult.

Monstermushmush·Oct 23, 2018·70 votes·16,084 views

His old ult was so much more fun and usually much harder to mess up than his current one.

74 Comments

TheSingularityOct 23, 201823 votes

LET THE BOI BOUNCE!

KhristophorosOct 23, 201815 votes

Yeah sometimes simpler is better.

chipndip1Oct 23, 201812 votes

The point of changing the ult was to make it harder to get max output out of it...so why revert it?

The issue with all the mini-reworks is that they were mini-rework packs instead of careful, calculated projects for each individual, to make sure each project hit the mark. Doesn't make their former iterations better.

Personally, I'm not super sure on his ult. They probably should have made it bounce people straight up and down, then knock people away from the center, rather than having him drag whole teams across the map into his team. The way it is now is a shit ton of utility power, but the general direction of adding skill expression to his ult and making him the "5v5 jungle tank" isn't a bad one. I just think the logistics of the new ult were thought up in a vacuum, rather than in a realistic setting.

ParoeOct 23, 201811 votes

{quoted}

The point of changing the ult was to make it harder to get max output out of it...so why revert it?

The issue with all the mini-reworks is that they were mini-rework packs instead of careful, calculated projects for each individual, to make sure each project hit the mark. Doesn't make their former iterations better.

Personally, I'm not super sure on his ult. They probably should have made it bounce people straight up and down, then knock people away from the center, rather than having him drag whole teams across the map into his team. The way it is now is a shit ton of utility power, but the general direction of adding skill expression to his ult and making him the "5v5 jungle tank" isn't a bad one. I just think the logistics of the new ult were thought up in a vacuum, rather than in a realistic setting.

Because his current ult is janky and clunky asf? His old ult also did damage when he built AP, something his current ult doesnt really do.

chipndip1Oct 23, 20181 votes

What does AP Zac have to do with anything? That's a gimmick, not a concern.

dome025Oct 23, 20184 votes

AP Zac doesn´t have anything to do with the point you made.

But you´re wrong that ap Zac isn´t a legitimate concern. Many players like having various build paths on a champion. And old Zac offered tank, ap bruiser and full ap build paths. With his rework the full ap build path got killed. I don´t know if ap bruiser got killed too but would guess so. Meaning only tank Zac is viable.

Having different options and exploring diferent build paths can be an important aspect of a champion and league in general. It makes the game feel fresh and fun to try out different build paths. It also allows players to adapt to your team and to the enemy team. However it should be made sure that offbuilds are still healthy for the game. But then some other champions would need adjustments too (AP Kai´Sa, AP Malph, etc.).

chipndip1Oct 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

AP Zac doesn´t have anything to do with the point you made.

But you´re wrong that ap Zac isn´t a legitimate concern. Many players like having various build paths on a champion. And old Zac offered tank, ap bruiser and full ap build paths. With his rework the full ap build path got killed. I don´t know if ap bruiser got killed too but would guess so. Meaning only tank Zac is viable.

I'll tell you what I told the other guy: Champions are RARELY balanced around multiple types of builds, especially in modern League of Legends.

This was "kind of" a thing way back in the day. It isn't now. Sometimes Riot makes a Galio or a Kai'Sa, but in most cases, build variety isn't concerned with "Building lethality and being 100% viable one game, then build full tank and still being 100% viable the next game...as Sivir". Build variety means that "Within your role and class, you have a decent breadth of viable items to choose from for different variations of the job you have." It's less about making "Glass cannon AP Zac" a viable ladder climbing strat and more about making sure that Zac functions well enough as a tank to do his thing. Damage builds on a tank champion are an afterthought. If it works out, cool, but no one cares if it doesn't.

And before you get the wrong idea: I tried making damage items like TriForce and Cleaver work out on Poppy for a mad minute, myself. It's just blatantly unnecessary. You feel strong for a bit, but when you use that slot for some mid game damage instead of all-game tankiness, you fall off faster and find yourself unable to make plays where you should be able to because you'd trade 1:1 at best instead of actually survive. Tanks aren't concerned with glass play patterns. It's as much of an afterthought as full tank Sivir. If that means that Riot sort of eliminates the notion outright while trying to make their main play styles better...honestly, not a lot of people care. I'm just being honest.

dome025Oct 24, 20181 votes

First: I don´t expect ap Zac to be viable (as I remember it wasn´t viable prior the update either but just the possibilty to build ap existed).

I understand that current Zac has no room for good ap ratios because of the strong cc that got added on his q and the his ult being less punishing (you can´t accidentally knock back enemies into safety anymore if you mess up).

However it´s still a legitimate concern of some Zac players, cause they lost something they cared about.

Look for example at Aatrox. Some mains complained that his rework changed his gameplay way to much. Riot was right to rework Aatrox because he was unhealthy (stat check, low counterplay) for the game. Yet it was a legitimate concern of those players cause they lost something they liked to play. And Riot should do their best to consider the concerns of players who like the champion they update.

chipndip1Oct 24, 20181 votes

If you understand that Zac doesn't have room for strong AP ratios...then what's the argument in the first place? You may not like it, but you know why things are the way they are now.

Anywho, you shouldn't get hung up on normal queue gimmicks. Would you rather have a functional, viable Shyvanna, or a Shyvanna that adheres to useless AP builds? Same question here.

Sergeant HbA1cNov 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you understand that Zac doesn't have room for strong AP ratios...then what's the argument in the first place? You may not like it, but you know why things are the way they are now.

Anywho, you shouldn't get hung up on normal queue gimmicks. Would you rather have a functional, viable Shyvanna, or a Shyvanna that adheres to useless AP builds? Same question here.

AP Shyvana literally one shots carries with her Dragonform Q.

Votable JesterOct 23, 20181 votes

Yes having multiple ways to play a champion is overrated, who wants to have the flexibility to go tanky or damage if they feel it?

dome025Oct 23, 20182 votes

The point of changing the ult was to make it harder to get max output out of it...so why revert it?

Perhaps they mentioned this somewhere in a comment or in a reddit post where it isn´t visible for everyone but if not then you are just making up arguments.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/vLEjALxZ-mid-season-tanks-update-zac

Let’s Bounce! is a more chaotic version of Wukong’s Ultimate (Cyclone) rather than the potential teamfight-defining moment that Zac’s unique, sticky, bouncy nature promises

His new ult required that it is harder to get max output out of it but it wasn´t the goal of the ult update.

chipndip1Oct 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps they mentioned this somewhere in a comment or in a reddit post where it isn´t visible for everyone but if not then you are just making up arguments.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/vLEjALxZ-mid-season-tanks-update-zac

His new ult required that it is harder to get max output out of it but it wasn´t the goal of the ult update.

{quoted} After initiation, there is very little variance or mastery to his combat pattern, consisting of primarily sitting on one target and spamming his Q and W

Keeping in line with our overall Tank update goals, we’d like to shift some his reliable damage into additional forms of CC (we already felt that his two passives provide unique forms of defenses)

Like...it's in the same post...

dome025Oct 23, 20181 votes

If you refer to this part:

we´d like to shift some his reliable damage into additional forms of CC

That´s not the same. You mentioned the point of the update was to make it harder to get max output from it (including damage, cc, utility, best possible outcome -> for example ulting the enemy carries in your team, etc.). But they mentioned they just want to shift some of his reliable damage into cc and not make it harder to get max output from it.

Also I wouldn´t really say that his old ult had reliable damage since it wasn´t that hard to dodge multiple instances of it which makes it not so reliable. Q and W spam while sticking to the target was way more reliable damage than using ult.

Otherwise I don´t know what else you could mean.

chipndip1Oct 24, 20181 votes

After his initiation, there's very little variance or mastery to his combat pattern

His old ult was just cc while you moved around. Low variance game play is hard to work with.

dome025Oct 24, 20181 votes

After his initiation, there's very little variance or mastery to his combat pattern

That´s again not the same as the point you made.

You wrote the point was to make it harder to get max output from his ult. They wrote that he had little variance and little mastery to show through his combat patterns.

And perhaps you don´t know this but combat patterns don´t exclusively consist of one ability but are a result of the entire champion (does the champion rely on autoattacks or spells, is the champion tanky or squishy, how can the champ combine his abilities, etc.). Yes, single abilities are still important for combat patterns but to increase the difficulty or skill ceiling of one ability (the point you made) doesn´t necessarily increase the variance or mastery of the combat patterns a champion has.

Let´s take a look at Zac. Imagine they only updated his ult.

His combat pattern would still look like they described it in the original post:

After initiation, there is very little variance or mastery to his combat pattern, consisting of primarily sitting on one target and spamming his Q and W

He would still try sticking to the target and spamming Q and W after he engaged, if they didn´t update his Q. He would have the same combat pattern even though they updated his ult which leads me to the conclusion that not his ult but his Q was the problem for low variance game play and little room for mastery.

They even wrote it in the last part of the point you have quoted.

Also his old ult had way more variance than his new ult and as much if not more skill expression.

New ult is mostly: Who are you going to target and how long does the situation allow you to channel it. Old ult: Who are you going to target, do you swap targets between bounces to get extra cc or do you continue being a threat to your target, from which angle do you hit your enemy (the position of enemies mattered way more cause they could be knocked back in any direction, now it only matters if you hit or miss the ult).

chipndip1Oct 24, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You wrote the point was to make it harder to get max output from his ult. They wrote that he had little variance and little mastery to show through his combat patterns.

...that's the same thing, worded differently.

And perhaps you don´t know this but combat patterns don´t exclusively consist of one ability but are a result of the entire champion (does the champion rely on autoattacks or spells, is the champion tanky or squishy, how can the champ combine his abilities, etc.).

Yes, single abilities are still important for combat patterns but to increase the difficulty or skill ceiling of one ability (the point you made) doesn´t necessarily increase the variance or mastery of the combat patterns a champion has.

I mean, yes it does. You're basically saying "2 + 2 = 4, but 3 + 2 =/= 5". If you make something about a champ harder, you're making the overall kit that much harder. Is it SIGNIFICANTLY harder? Probs not, since this wasn't a massive project, but a bit harder.

Let´s take a look at Zac. Imagine they only updated his ult.

This isn't much of a point to get tangled up in in the first place.

Zac's rework was done to do the things described previously, and they changed his Q and ult to do that. Separating the changes and analyzing them in a vacuum makes this a question of parts rather than sums, which isn't the point that anyone wants or needs to be discussing in the first place. Yeah, his play pattern would look super similar to his old play pattern if he ONLY had Q changes or ONLY had R changes. That's why they changed both.

Also his old ult had way more variance than his new ult and as much if not more skill expression.

His old ult was front loaded. He'd E in, and if he hit the E, he ults, which knocks everyone he hit into the air. Riot was trying to elongate tank play patterns so they wouldn't just dump buttons on your face, then wait around with nothing to do like Amumu or Malphite tend to. This new ult, to the least, gives some decision making and counter-play to those involved. "How long do I charge and where do I send everyone I recently caught?" vs. "Do I have the means to escape this before he launches this move?". It ain't a whole lot, but this wasn't a massive project.

dome025Oct 24, 20181 votes

...that's the same thing, worded differently.

It´s not the same thing. You can increase ult difficulty without increasing skill expression in his combat patterns. You could update an ability and increase its skill expression and it wouldn´t necessarily increase the variance nor the skill expression of combat patterns.

Yeah, his play pattern would look super similar to his old play pattern if he ONLY had Q changes

Forgot to make the comparison. And I disagree here with you, I believe his problem of little variance and little mastery in combat patterns would have been fixed with a simple q update.

It was his q which was luckluster and limited his potential as a tank not his ult.

Separating the changes and analyzing them in a vacuum makes this a question of parts rather than sums, which isn't the point that anyone wants or needs to be discussing in the first place.

Analyzing a single change is as important as analyzing them together. I just forgot to make the comparison between only updating ult and only updating Q.

He'd E in, and if he hit the E, he ults so they wouldn't just dump buttons on your face, then wait around with nothing to do

But new ult didn´t change this. His kit still encourages you to engage with e and then immediately ult. It´s not different to prior the update.

"Do I have the means to escape this before he launches this move?"

Describes his current ult better than his old ult. With his old ult the enemies could reposition them according to Zac. With his current ult you either get hit or not hit. The counterplay got reduced to "Can I get out of it?".

jaeminpaikOct 23, 201811 votes

I also think it was a lot safer and effective too, in a way. The old ulti allowed zac to cause disruption in the enemy backline easily and be more creative in how you can use it, but the current ulti really only lets you do one exact thing. #bringbackoldzac

ArakadiaOct 23, 20184 votes

I don't see how it was creative or versatile. Certainly less so then current ult.

The old ult was just press it when you jump on the backline for free CC lock and some AoE damage.

TheGr8WhiteDOct 23, 20182 votes

Well realistically you did three things with it.

A) You used it to escape.

B) You used it to either E behind someone, or flash behind them, and bounce them back into your team.

or C) You used it to push people away and it was a peel tool.

Chembaron YamadaOct 23, 20183 votes

You can use the current ult for all of these, too.

A) Escape either by just tapping it to knock people away and then run or hold it without an enemy on you to jump over a wall.

B) Obviously, jumping into the backline with E and then kidnap them right into your team.

C) You don't always have to use it to bring enemies towards your team. I oftenly used this ult to peel for my carry by transporting the enemy away from them.

In my book, the current ult is superior in every way possible, it has more creative uses than the old one. I hope it stays, I enjoy it.

MonstermushmushOct 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You can use the current ult for all of these, too.

A) Escape either by just tapping it to knock people away and then run or hold it without an enemy on you to jump over a wall.

B) Obviously, jumping into the backline with E and then kidnap them right into your team.

C) You don't always have to use it to bring enemies towards your team. I oftenly used this ult to peel for my carry by transporting the enemy away from them.

In my book, the current ult is superior in every way possible, it has more creative uses than the old one. I hope it stays, I enjoy it.

This is very understandable, so thanks. But the reason I liked the old Zac ult was that it basically did more damage than his current ult. His new one definitely has more utility, but it's a lot harder to mess up. Also, the old Zac ult allowed you to heal a lot more.

CleverCactusOct 23, 20182 votes

It let him move around while using W to generate lots of blobs and pick them up. Each bounce made a blob, and each W made a blob, so he could use it to sustain a lot in a teamfight.

jurrrrOct 23, 20189 votes

old zac's ultimate looks SO much cooler

TheGr8WhiteDOct 23, 20186 votes

Id actually play Zac if he had his old ultimate. Have felt pretty lost/not really desiring to que up because I dont really have something I truthfully want to play.

dome025Oct 23, 20184 votes

If they revert his ult then they should also rework his q again so it feels more like his old q. Or revert it. (But a revert would only bring back the problems his old q had)

Or if they neither want to rework or revert it then they should at least fix it. It´s currently a mess. Its animations are a mess, it loses almost all of its power in 1vs1 situations, it feels, together with his ult, less energetic like his old Q (old Zac felt way more energetic and fluid to play than current Zac).

ﬂooOct 23, 20181 votes

The new Q is less energetic? His old one was a wider yasuo Q without onhit. Like seriously.. the reworked one feels like 3 times more impactful, fun and has more use by far.

dome025Oct 23, 20182 votes

The first instance still feels energetic but the second instance where you need to autoattack an enemy can feel (depends if you manage to proc it instant) way less energetic and way more clunky than his old q.

Overall new Q feels more clunky, less fluid and less energetic for me.

Yes, new Q is more impactful than old Q but it doesn´t give me the feel which old Zac´s kit gave me. And just reverting q would bring the old problems back, that´s why I hope for them to rework it again but based on old q.

ﬂooOct 23, 20181 votes

Idk what you see in the old one. It's a directional version of his W (and it had a slow but I could be wrong). There's so much more usage about the newer one + to time your Q properly and have a second target nearby, that's just another skill expression.

dome025Oct 23, 20182 votes

The new q has way more power when ganking or teamfighting but also lost power in 1vs1 or wave clear. So I wouldn´t really say it has more usage but rather it gained massive power in some situations and lost massive power in others.

And I would say some of its skill expression gets nullified because of how League and Zac work.

The q instance which is a skillshot can be easily used on minions so you don´t need to worry about missing it during a gank. Enemies are also clustered during teamfights which makes it again easier to hit it on someone.

Zac also gets in melee range and stuns his enemies with his engage which makes it again easier to hit it.

You could make it an enhanced autoattack and it would be as skillful as it is right now and it would only feel different to use. The only skill expression is which targets do you want to hit in which situation.

They could have expanded on the old Q making it more skillful to use, more distinct to his w and more interesting generally while keeping the feel of a fluid, energetic Zac.

zlumpyOct 23, 20184 votes

The old ult resulted in more healing for him as well allowing him to stay longer in an enemy team and actually tank. The blobs generated from bounce hits added up fast. He also generated them off of jungle objectives meaning if you didnt need his ult for a team fight he could use it on something like dragon for a solo clear if the enemy wasnt paying attention.

Pandemic PunchOct 23, 20183 votes

I missed the old ult since the new one got announced :(

Leto GTOct 23, 20183 votes

They're just buffing his Q. Wont change anything. What all tanks need is a better clear.

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20181 votes

Except....buffing his Q makes his clear better. 10 damage on Q rank 1 is 20 damage per unit in the camp. That isnt "nothing".

Leto GTOct 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yns4XNBQ,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-10-23T18:01:32.882+0000)

Except....buffing his Q makes his clear better. 10 damage on Q rank 1 is 20 damage per unit in the camp. That isnt "nothing".

That's litteraly nothing on a 13 sec cooldown ability that hits two targets. Not sure if you're aware of the hp that those camps have. It does help his gank potential but barely his clear.

My Waifu VanillaOct 25, 20182 votes

It doesnt only hit 2 targets. The swing and auto yes it 2 targets, but the collision hits the entire camp which helps him kill Raptors much easier. Idk what you all want him to have to help his clear besides damage. His clear isnt allowed to be super stellar because he is one of the worst junglers you ever want to see on the enemy team since he can gank from literally anywhere.

PoskeOct 23, 20183 votes

Do People like not understand the zac issue?

HE LL NEVER BE ALLOWED TO JUNGLE AT NON TRASH SPEED BECAUSE OF HIS SEMI GLOBAL GANK INTO CC LOCK POTENTIONAL

I dont see how your suggestion changes anything

MarkedOfKaneOct 25, 20183 votes

Honestly, I would also like his old Q back too. Basically an undoing of his rework, he didn't need one.

WolfeurOct 23, 20182 votes

Old ult was just a fancy Wukong ult, never found it interesting. The new one is so much better and feels more impactful.

ParoeOct 23, 20187 votes

{quoted}

Old ult was just a fancy Wukong ult, never found it interesting. The new one is so much better and feels more impactful.

A fancy wukong ult? Better and more impactful? Do you even remember what the old ult WAS?

CithriaCOct 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A fancy wukong ult? Better and more impactful? Do you even remember what the old ult WAS?

They said it quite bluntly, but it kind of is true. It gave Zac a small movement speed bonus for duration. It did three bounces + the initial jump, all knocking back the enemy slightly. Each opponent could only be cc'd once, and it did aoe damage scaling with ap.

Looking at this, the only real difference is in the fact that the damage/cc instances were seperated by 1 second intervals rather than Wukongs persistant ult.

Compared to Zac's current ult, which can bring one or many opponents to a certain spot, his old ult was less impactful. Especially since Zac can quickcast his current ult if he wishes for a similar knockback effect.

dome025Oct 23, 20183 votes

It might be true in theory but during a match (at least) I would never think/get the feeling that his old ult is just a fancy/more chaotic Wukong ult.

Also I would say that Zac´s old ult was more creative and not as binary as Wukong´s ult. His old ult had more skill expression than his current ult which got dumbed down and is now binary.

I would say that his old ult had enough impact to decide fights while being healthy, creative and good in multiple situations. His new ult has to much impact while being less healthy, less creative and good in only a few situations (mostly teamfights).

My Waifu VanillaOct 23, 20182 votes

Except his old ult WAS binary. It's not like you could push people multiple times in a given direction. You usually E'd in and knocked everyone around you in different directions. After that ALL you got was straight damage since you could only CC someone once.

dome025Oct 23, 20183 votes

It's not like you could push people multiple times in a given direction. After that ALL you got was straight damage since you could only CC someone once.

Except nobody likes to get caught in a cc chain which could be worse than a Lee Sin kicking you in the enemy team. Having multiple instances of knock backs would just be unhealthy.

You usually E'd in and knocked everyone around you in different directions.

Having one obvious usage doesn´t mean it can´t have other ways to use it. Almost every ability has 1 or 2 intended ways to use it but you wouldn´t call them all binary or? Also his new ult has one intended/obvious usage too but unlike his old ult not much other ways to use it (example Zac´s ult can be used in a 1vs1

Rough examples for different ways to use them:

Old ult: -1vs1 situation disengage

1vs1 situation engage
teamfight peeling for your carry
teamfight disengage
teamfight engage

New ult:

teamfight engage
teamfight disengage
teamfight peeling for your carry

Except his old ult WAS binary.

With his old ult you had multiple outcomes depending on multiple factors and the decisions you made.

With his new ult you have a few outcomes depending on fewer factors and fewer decisions you made.

My Waifu VanillaOct 24, 20181 votes

Cool. Tanks shouldn't win 1v1s regardless. Technically speaking the only thing the old ult did better in a 1v1 was it did more damage. Riot could theoretically just buff the numbers to the old value on a full charged ult and it is "equally" as good as the old one in a 1v1. The thing is tanks should not do well in 1v1s (barring exceptions such as Cho) since they have much stronger 2v2s and 5v5s than the non-tank junglers. Zac has VERY "unfair" gank patterns and does extremely well in counterganks since he offers SO much CC to the table that giving him an "alright" 1v1 as well will cause him to be a tier 0 jungler again.

dome025Oct 24, 20181 votes

Tanks shouldn't win 1v1s regardless.

Cool, except old tank Zac wasn´t able to 1vs1 someone. He just had a tool to better cope with a 1vs1.

Technically speaking the only thing the old ult did better in a 1v1 was it did more damage.

It gave him a movement speed buff. And it also triggered Rylais which helped him to escape.

The thing is tanks should not do well in 1v1s (barring exceptions such as Cho) since they have much stronger 2v2s and 5v5s than the non-tank junglers.

They shouldn´t be the best at duels, however this doesn´t mean that they should be total garbage in 1vs1 situations. Also Cho is rather a juggernaut (still a subclass of tanks but different to the traditional tanks).

Zac has VERY "unfair" gank patterns and does extremely well in counterganks since he offers SO much CC to the table that giving him an "alright" 1v1 as well will cause him to be a tier 0 jungler again.

Yeah and his new ult and q make his gank patterns more unhealthy. New q is stronger for ganks than his old q because of the additonal, hard to mess up with it cc and his ult just got harder to mess up with / less counterplay for the enemy.

However I need to admit that his new ult is also good in 1vs1 situations. I didn´t know that it was possible to activate it without a channel for a knock back. But I would say that his old ult was still better for disengaging in 1vs1 situations (it was more forgiving -you could still mess up/ the enemy could still play around it- and more effective in 1vs1 situations).

SirFred131Oct 24, 20182 votes

I think I'd like to see him keep the current ult, but become untargetable during the channel like a Vlad pool. That would let you get a pseudo Zhonya's by full channeling, in exchange for giving the enemy team time to decide whether or not they want to be with you when you bounce. That would let you do things like dive in and then wait for your team, dive past the back line and block off a path so they can't kite back, ect. without just sitting around doing nothing getting auto'd by the ADC. It'd also be a really useful tool if you wanted to try to do an AP Zac, letting you make up for the lack of tank stats in certain situations.