Boards›Gameplay

So what's the purpose of malzahar's passive again?

deadlychuck··2 votes·656 views

Seriously, after this most recent change they've double the CD late game (so basically 1 per fight) and 1/4 the duration.

What exactly is it intended to do now? The only thing that i can tell it offers is slight protection from ranged engagement abilities such as Ahri charm, Blitzcrank pull, Braum Q, Sejuani ult... assuming the player is bad enough to actually engage with such an ability onto a shielded malzahar

I'm going to go on a little bit of a rant/analysis on what the ability has done thus far. TL;DR : If this ability works, it's too strong, if it doesn't it's negligible. After the nerfs, the only abilities it's even slightly resistant towards are ranged poke/engagement abilities.

So after the rework, the passive has been used for multiple reasons in the kit. I'm not going to claim to know what riot's team wanted this passive to accomplish, so let's go over everything that it has done, under the assumption that on release it was doing what they wanted it to do and more.

  1. Prevent ult interruption
  2. Buy time for voidlings
  3. Protect from assassination
  4. Protect from ganks

Before i start addressing each point, it's only fair to clearly define how his ability works. Passive: If malzahar hasn't taken damage from a champion/monster/tower nor been affected by CC in the last 30/24/18/12 seconds, he will gain Void Shift. Buff: Void Shift - Reduces damage taken by 90% and makes him immune to CC, for .25 seconds. Extra Details: His passive can be triggered by any form of persistent AOE, such as Nunu ult, Hecarim w, MissFortune E, exc, be it damage or purely CC. Compared to item 3102 which only applies to non-persistent AOE, damage and CC.

Prevent Ult Interruption: The Basic concept is that if you're immune to hard CC, then you can continue using your ult. This is only effective however, so long as they are forced to attempt CC on you before you've received any form of attack and while it's vital to even interrupt the CC. His range is easily within that of most AOE or poke, and his damage is so slow to ramp up, that if he uses it early enough to not be damage, it's unlikely he will have any damage to follow through.

Buy time for voidlings: Similar to protecting you while ulting, except this one applies specifically to champions which will often engage directly on top of you, before attempting to kill you. Khazix Rengar MasterYi Renekton exc. The passive would buy you a full extra second, between them jumping onto you, and their burst, that you could get that 3rd voidling out, and amass enough to kill them, or at least do enough to scare them off, within the time frame of your ult (2.5 seconds). Now that time has been greatly reduced, meaning he will be unlikely to kill/scare the target within the span of his ult, while avoiding assassination (see 3).

Protect from assassination: This one is pretty simple as well. It has two key factors, being does the enemy champion combo their damage in < 0.25 seconds, and how much do they rely on a single ability engage/deal damage. This is also assuming that the assassin isn't like a Zed Yasuo Teemo Ekko exc, who can poke you a couple of seconds before following up with an actual engage. In most cases, if they can engage and stay on top of you, then they are playing a game of chicken between you ramping your damage, and quickly bursting you after the shield dissipates. However, now they can engage on you, and then start to assassinate you, in less time than it takes to blink.

Protect from ganks: For similar reasons as the previous case, this is very much worthless for that cause. For one, if it's the jungler ganking then they have smite, and either of the champion smites break the shield. If it's not the jungler, then any poke in the last 30-20 seconds (while in lane phase) will render this protection non-existent. If it is up, any auto attack can be followed by CC immediately, assuming projectile travel time.

So in closing, i've just got to ask, if you were to remove his passive at this point, how much would that actually affect his gameplay and that of those against him? It offers basically no protection, given the ease in which it can be wasted, and because of the purely defensive nature of the ability what does it actually offer as part of the gameplay?

16 Comments

ChaddyFantome3 votes

it exists to make him harder to hard engage. The goal of the CD nerf was to make it so poking it out before hard engaging was actually feasible. Now malzahar has to actually care about his passive's up time and whether he has it or not.

deadlychuck1 votes

Except that it doesn't make him harder to engage on, the vast majority of the champions have some form of mobility or poke, to put themselves in range of him and/or break the shield before engaging.

Also idk about you, but of all the games i've painfully played on the post-reworked malzahar, not rarely did i ever feel the need to factor in my passive's status, when playing. Early game, i had more protection by warding, and late game, it was often lost at the start of a team fight through passive AOE damage. I'm sure my enemy does, as if they blindly engage before breaking it, then they will undoubtedly lose a lot of damage, but outside of a passing thought of "ok break the shield.... now go" I doubt any more thought went into it. Now that it's only 0.25 seconds, i doubt they will even consider that much.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Except that it doesn't make him harder to engage on, the vast majority of the champions have some form of mobility or poke, to put themselves in range of him and/or break the shield before engaging.

What does mobility matter? If they jump you the shield blocks it and then u dump all your spells on them and R then. As for Poke? learn to dodge.

deadlychuck1 votes

Except that because of the massive dependence on your W stacking up, if you do that, then you will basically be doing no damage for the duration of your Ult. Let alone if they have some form of natural aoe to kill the voidlings.

Oh yeah, and i forgot, how easy it is to side step auto attacks, my bad.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Except that because of the massive dependence on your W stacking up, if you do that, then you will basically be doing no damage for the duration of your Ult. Let alone if they have some form of natural aoe to kill the voidlings.

Oh yeah, and i forgot, how easy it is to side step auto attacks, my bad.

What does that have to do with your Passive?

Also, why the hell r u in auto attack range?

To humor your silly tangent. Your W prioritizes champs hit by your ultimate.

Any issues you have with his W are completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.

deadlychuck1 votes

I was arguing on the basis that you would be using your passive as a delaying tool to get the voidling threshold before ulting. Yes they focus the target with your ult, but that doesn't mean much when they are still not stacked, and have to still travel half the length of your ult after spawning.

Also there is zero need for you to explain any mechanic of the champion to me, let alone something literally stated in the description of the abilities, i have a very good understanding of the champion and how he works mechanically, where his flaws were/are. Less so after the rework, but that's expected considering so much was changed, it's basically a fucking new champion, while they threw away the old one.

Also, "Why are you in auto attack range?" Probably because auto attacks are cast hit box to hit box and skills are cast center to center, his E range is 650, so the average hit box being 100 units, means that any ranged champion with 550 or higher can pretty easily attack your shield down. That list includes, Zilean Ziggs Vayne Twitch Syndra Soraka Sona Ryze Nami MissFortune Malzahar Lux Lulu Lissandra Kennen Kalista Jhin Heimerdinger Ezreal Elise Draven Corki Cassiopeia Brand AurelionSol Ahri Zyra Varus Annie Ashe Anivia Caitlyn Jinx Tristana(lvl 1).

34 champions, that can just auto attack you. So 1/4 of the champion pool, let alone the champions not listed that can easily land some form of consistent aoe, which can't be reliability dodged such as Nasus e.

It's not issues i have with his W, it's issues I have with his whole redesign. His E is dependent on his W, for damage, his R is dependent on his W for damage, his Q is dependent on his E, which is dependent on his W for damage. His Passive is also dependent on his W, in that it's only use is to protect you, while your W does all the work. So if the passive is so weak that it can't protect you while your W stacks, then what's the advantage in even having it? I could be just as effective without any passive at all, if it's only use is going to be to block the very first hit of a fight.

The passive in the current form of 0.25 seconds adds nothing to his kit, it only acts as a minor inconveniences for the enemy, and then that's only assuming that they can't knock it off of you before the fight even starts.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I was arguing on the basis that you would be using your passive as a delaying tool to get the voidling threshold before ulting. Yes they focus the target with your ult, but that doesn't mean much when they are still not stacked, and have to still travel half the length of your ult after spawning.

Also there is zero need for you to explain any mechanic of the champion to me, let alone something literally stated in the description of the abilities, i have a very good understanding of the champion and how he works mechanically, where his flaws were/are. Less so after the rework, but that's expected considering so much was changed, it's basically a fucking new champion, while they threw away the old one.

Also, "Why are you in auto attack range?" Probably because auto attacks are cast hit box to hit box and skills are cast center to center, his E range is 650, so the average hit box being 100 units, means that any ranged champion with 550 or higher can pretty easily attack your shield down. That list includes, Zilean Ziggs Vayne Twitch Syndra Soraka Sona Ryze Nami MissFortune Malzahar Lux Lulu Lissandra Kennen Kalista Jhin Heimerdinger Ezreal Elise Draven Corki Cassiopeia Brand AurelionSol Ahri Zyra Varus Annie Ashe Anivia Caitlyn Jinx Tristana(lvl 1).

34 champions, that can just auto attack you. So 1/4 of the champion pool, let alone the champions not listed that can easily land some form of consistent aoe, which can't be reliability dodged such as Nasus e.

It's not issues i have with his W, it's issues I have with his whole redesign. His E is dependent on his W, for damage, his R is dependent on his W for damage, his Q is dependent on his E, which is dependent on his W for damage. His Passive is also dependent on his W, in that it's only use is to protect you, while your W does all the work. So if the passive is so weak that it can't protect you while your W stacks, then what's the advantage in even having it? I could be just as effective without any passive at all, if it's only use is going to be to block the very first hit of a fight.

The passive in the current form of 0.25 seconds adds nothing to his kit, it only acts as a minor inconveniences for the enemy, and then that's only assuming that they can't knock it off of you before the fight even starts.

The entire premise of you argument makes no sense. Ideally u dont wanna rev up ur W before you go all in because then the timer on your voidlings is half done.

Also, why the hell is your Ult target so far form your voidlings?

deadlychuck1 votes

Have you even played the new malzahar? Combo E,W,R, as fast as you can, on a target and see how much damage you do. They specifically removed that from him.

You don't wanna rev up your W before you go all in, but you're required to in order to have any amount of actual damage output. Hell, even ignoring your ult, without your W stacked, you do shit all damage. FFS you do so little damage outside of W, that without an extra spell, even being fed and building pure AP, you can't kill a minion with E alone.

What even is the 2nd question? Why would i ult target so far from my voidlings? Do you think i'm having my voidlings run across the lane to get the target? No the voidlings are ramping on the target, except, that when they spawn while you're using your ult, they only spawn at most 450 units away from you, where as your ult range is 700.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Have you even played the new malzahar?

Played it before you even had the luxury of instalocking him on release via PBVE tyvm. Real argument please?

Combo E,W,R, as fast as you can, on a target and see how much damage you do. They specifically removed that from him.

Yes. what is your point?

Your Ulti is for catching a target out when you get engaged on, just like I said. You seem to be aware that they specifically toned down his "press all my buttons and now ur dead" aspect, so allow me to express how confused I am that you are still playing him in that fashion.

deadlychuck1 votes

Wait, you played it before he went to the PBE, or you played him on the PBE and therefore before me? Because i get the feeling neither of those are true.

My point:

{quoted}

Ideally u dont wanna rev up ur W before you go all in because then the timer on your voidlings is half done.

You said that.

Your ult is to lock a target down, yet to do that and kill the target requires your voidlings a good ~4 seconds to stack up.

I digress, the reason this is relevant to his passive is, because this part of your gameplay (your W stacking) is so core to actually being able to do anything, that making the passive have any impact in the slightest means that it will be far to easy for malzahar to stall for that time. Having it do to little, means that it does nothing, because you can just ignore it and go for the jugular before he can set up to kill you. The passive is now so meaningless, that a leona E,Q, will still stun you.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Wait, you played it before he went to the PBE, or you played him on the PBE and therefore before me?

You aren't making sense. I played him on the PBE, therefore before you. I also played him on live extensively.

Because i get the feeling neither of those are true.

Bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

My point:

You said that.

Your ult is to lock a target down, yet to do that and kill the target requires your voidlings a good ~4 seconds to stack up.

Except it doesn't.

Not unless you are trying to 100-0 someone like old Malza, in which case you are doing it wrong.

deadlychuck1 votes

How did that not make sense? I asked why you claimed you played him before me, and listed the only two possible explanations as to how that could be possible. I played him on the PBE too, so you're assumption would be incorrect, and i didn't stop playing him on live just because i think his new kit is complete shit. I continue(d) to play him, because when i don't like the way something was changed, it's better to experience it as much as possible to understand what is the cause of the problems.

Riddle me this, if your ult doesn't exist to burst and it doesn't exist to lock a target down, what does it exist for?

What is with you and this vague 100-0 that you keep bring up? Burst?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

How did that not make sense? I asked why you claimed you played him before me, and listed the only two possible explanations as to how that could be possible.

How the hell would I be able to play him before it got on PBE?

Riddle me this, if your ult doesn't exist to burst and it doesn't exist to lock a target down, what does it exist for?

The problem is you are assuming it somehow doesn't accomplish the latter. Which is utterly retarded.

What is with you and this vague 100-0 that you keep bring up? Burst?

I don't see what is so vague about what you are trying to do with his kit even tho by your own admission it doesn't work.

LordGeovanni1 votes

no allowing that sheild to sit around until that voidling ramps up is removing the counter paly to his main damgage and cc combo

Nilok1 votes

So he can cast hit ult easier, be harder to gank, and suck the power budget from his kit.

deadlychuck1 votes

Honestly it's funny, because his W has so much of the offensive power budget in his kit. So much so that the rest of his abilities only exist to support.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by deadlychuck

Really hate how riot's design has actively discriminated against passive methodical play styles
Gameplay122 comments
116
votes
I don't even know why i play this game anymore
Gameplay112 comments
106
votes
@riot, if you're not gonna buff AP
Gameplay83 comments
86
votes
I'm very confused by the new mastery Battle Trance
Gameplay49 comments
63
votes
PSA: If an ally is behind
Gameplay21 comments
45
votes
People acting like they're just now noticing that Zoe Q is pre-rework nid spear...
Gameplay34 comments
34
votes