Riot Stashu's logic behind Cassiopeia's rework

Scarborough Fair·Nov 24, 2014·38 votes·4,672 views

Let's make about 5 discussions in the past 2 months asking players for feedback but then DON'T listen to them and do what I want anyway! Haha!

78 Comments

yellowbricksNov 24, 201417 votes

Does this forum have an ignore feature so I can ignore the people who've been brainwashed by riot into thinking the champion who was hardly ever played for years before was somehow super toxic OP and had to get shackled with the shittiest passive that ever lived so she could be balanced? I would love that. They keep regurgitating the lies that riot has fed them and it just gets old after while, think for yourselves please. There was nothing wrong with old Cass, but then Stashu had to make the most retarded rework in history and now we're stuck with a shittier version of Veigar with her terrible passive stack mechanic.

It boggles my mind that some people would just accept such a shitty way to balance her, it's just laziness. Riot does not need "more levers", there's enough already with the way the other 100 something champs have been balanced with. They admitted they rushed it for some stupid lore event (this coming after people bitched about them taking the lore away, thanks for that, btw, riot listened in the typical riot "let's fuck everything else up" way), and yet they aren't giving us the time of day. Every Stashu and Morello post just reeks of "we know better than you we're not changing anything other than some numbers so nyeh".

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 20143 votes

Amen

OJ191Nov 25, 20144 votes

It boggles my mind that some people would just accept such a shitty way to balance her, it's just laziness. Riot does not need "more levers", there's enough already with the way the other 100 something champs have been balanced with. They admitted they rushed it for some stupid lore event (this coming after people bitched about them taking the lore away, thanks for that, btw, riot listened in the typical riot "let's fuck everything else up" way), and yet they aren't giving us the time of day. Every Stashu and Morello post just reeks of "we know better than you we're not changing anything other than some numbers so nyeh".

Don't be an ass, you can't blame people who like lore for riot deciding a champion rework which had nothing to do with the lore event had to be rushed just because the champion herself was involved in the lore event.

yellowbricksNov 25, 20146 votes

It boggles my mind that some people would just accept such a shitty way to balance her, it's just laziness. Riot does not need "more levers", there's enough already with the way the other 100 something champs have been balanced with. They admitted they rushed it for some stupid lore event (this coming after people bitched about them taking the lore away, thanks for that, btw, riot listened in the typical riot "let's fuck everything else up" way), and yet they aren't giving us the time of day. Every Stashu and Morello post just reeks of "we know better than you we're not changing anything other than some numbers so nyeh".

Don't be an ass, you can't blame people who like lore for riot deciding a champion rework which had nothing to do with the lore event had to be rushed just because the champion herself was involved in the lore event.

Not blaming lore lovers so much as I'm blaming riot for being the living embodiment of corrupt a wish.

"we want better lore"

"you heard em, make some desert event and make it quick, and rework this champ while you're at it."

Riot broke the number one rule of video games for me. Stories are good, but not at the cost of game play. Whenever stashu talks about her fantasy being sitting around bored for 40 minutes, I guffaw so hard.

TortferngatrNov 26, 20141 votes

Thinking for myself, I really don't mind the new passive (though it could indeed stand to be improved) and am totally okay with the attempt at compromise the new changes appear to be.

I feel the "we know better than you" pain and generally agree Cass was in an okay spot before, but I also don't think that it was "the most retarded rework in history."

Veigar and Cass still play differently--Cass is still focused on sustained damage and kiting, Veigar is still focused on absurdly strong burst damage and landing the stun cage on as many people as possible. The "shittier Veigar" line is quite regurgitated, yet here it is.

If this is a venting thread, so be it. I just had to vent myself.

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 201411 votes

Reading Stashu's continious complaints about lane bullying make's me assume that he once lost his lane against Cassio and started hating her guts so much that he decided to rip 'em out.

His "observations" are so far away from actual gameplay, I can't believe he ever played her on regular basis.

Or maybe Riot just chose a designer who didn't have anythign on his table to rework a champion he was unfamiliar with.

This is not ment to be as offensive as it sounds, but hsi reasoning and posts about Cassiopeia conviced more of it the more I read.

CanastusNov 24, 201410 votes

This goddamn passive needs to go, too bad Stashu would rather lose the last remnants of his reputation instead of listening to us.

Cassiopeia will never function properly as long as she's chained to this terrible artificial lategame mechanic, especially if you consider the season 5 meta where most games are already decided at who gets the first drake. Good luck ever reaching the 40 minute mark with her. Oh, also make sure you have at least 5 items at this point or all your stacks will amount to nothing!

TortferngatrNov 26, 20141 votes

*reputation on the Boards

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 201410 votes

I can't recall a single change ever made be Riot getting so much contra from the community as this new passive - yet Riot refuses to get rid of it.

The vast majority of players hate the initital design of the passive (and the change of Cassiopeia's role).

Yet, Riot refuses to get rid of this.

I wished they'ld finally realize that numbers are the least issue why the rework is reciving so much hate. A passive with the sole reason of limiting a champiosn abilities will never be fun.

It's okay to have 1 ability like that in a kit (Veigar, Nasus), but forcing it on a whole kit destroys the champions.

Especially if it's completely opposed to what the champion ever stood for.

Grand ElevenNov 25, 20147 votes

I can't recall a single change ever made be Riot getting so much contra from the community as this new passive - yet Riot refuses to get rid of it.

The vast majority of players hate the initital design of the passive (and the change of Cassiopeia's role).

While this is the first one I've been personally involved in, the uproar that was Karma's rework made that one just as big (if not bigger)... and in many ways for the same reason: massive identity overhaul. The key difference that may have made that one louder is she got her VU at the same time ... so they not only thematically changes her kit's feel ... but her visual aesthetics as well (RIP fans).

THe difference here is that karma was, infact a thematic mess IMO ... so while I understood the fans being upset ... I ultimately agree she needed an overhaul. Cass is NOT a thematic mess ... I think the direction should be rather clear ... yet she's being dragged in a different direction.

BavalNov 25, 20146 votes

You forgot, she also got her lore update at the same time, turning her from a perfect pacifist to another generic "i fight for my country"

Grand ElevenNov 25, 20147 votes

You forgot, she also got her lore update at the same time, turning her from a perfect pacifist to another generic "i fight for my country"

I thought I covered that in "massive identity overhaul". Btw: Cass had the same. How often does she say she's beautiful, again? The seductress is gone.

Sir TiddlesNov 25, 20143 votes

I can't recall a single change ever made be Riot getting so much contra from the community as this new passive - yet Riot refuses to get rid of it.

The vast majority of players hate the initital design of the passive (and the change of Cassiopeia's role).

While this is the first one I've been personally involved in, the uproar that was Karma's rework made that one just as big (if not bigger)... and in many ways for the same reason: massive identity overhaul. The key difference that may have made that one louder is she got her VU at the same time ... so they not only thematically changes her kit's feel ... but her visual aesthetics as well (RIP fans).

THe difference here is that karma was, infact a thematic mess IMO ... so while I understood the fans being upset ... I ultimately agree she needed an overhaul. Cass is NOT a thematic mess ... I think the direction should be rather clear ... yet she's being dragged in a different direction.

This is all true. But I still miss Karma's fans.

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20149 votes

He has been listening

It's just that Cass players seem to think being a massive lane bully and hyperscaling is a-ok as long as it's their champion doing it and not Ryze/Yasuo

So some compromises had to be made

JunkοNov 24, 20148 votes

When somebody that buys tanky items and solo carries the game or a manaless mADC with super defenses is allowed to do it then why isn't Cass?

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20145 votes

When somebody that buys tanky items and solo carries the game or a manaless mADC with super defenses is allowed to do it then why isn't Cass?

They aren't allowed to do it as evidenced by them being repeatedly nerfed for that very reason

Do you pay any attention to patch notes?

JunkοNov 24, 20142 votes

Yasuo has been nerfed because people are crying about him and don't know how to AA and bait wind wall before blowing your entire combo.

I don't recall any Ryze nerfs since he became meta top at all, all i recall is Spirit Visage being nerfed which made melee top laners have even a harder time fighting him and the meta shifting to ranged top laners since Gnars release.

ShínyNov 24, 20144 votes

Ryze Q's base damage has been reduced across all ranks.

As a strong late game scaling champion, Ryze's ability to bully out other top laners early is pretty bonkers, so we're reducing his base damage in lane while still leaving his ability to scale past laning phase intact. We'll be keeping an eye on Ryze over the next few patches, however, as these nerfs might be on the light side for how dominant a champ he is.

Q - Overload BASE MAGIC DAMAGE 60/85/110/135/160 ⇒ 40/60/80/100/120

JunkοNov 24, 20143 votes

Omg Ryze lost 20 dmg early, too bad his W and passive still make him untouchable.

DemiluniSNov 25, 20141 votes

ryze used at least 3 Q's in a trade early game, so it's 60 less damage early, which is huge.

JunkοNov 25, 20141 votes

he is still untouchable top laner unless you are playing Gnar/Vayne

DemiluniSNov 25, 20141 votes

you can say it about maokai, swain, nasus etc...they either outrange you or outsustain you...being untouchable doesn't give him any advantage, and he's really vulnerable to ganks

JunkοNov 25, 20141 votes

pressing W then walking away doesn't sound like vulnerable to ganks too me. If i can escape ganks playing Rumble then Ryze should have no problems.

also Ryze shits on Nasus, Swain has abyssal mana costs and Maokai is just Maokai and is gonna be nerfed into the jungle again because god forbid people play junglers outside of the jungle.

Grand ElevenNov 24, 201421 votes

... You didn't actually read any of the threads, did you?

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20147 votes

... You didn't actually read any of the threads, did you?

I did because gameplay and balance was covered with them for months

Apparently Cass is supposed to bully people because she has to generate stacks and then scale extremely hard

Stashu lowballed the numbers on the rework and has been adjusting her power curve to be less painful and arbitrary, and is trying to accommodate her poison mage thing

But if you guys wanna keep raving about the lack of responses after the massive number of red posts you've gotten be my guest

Scarborough FairNov 24, 201414 votes

Don't give me that bullshit about "op lane-bullying" because that could have been tweaked in more ways than one and had many solutions suggested by the players. Also, the rework encourages lane-bullying which contradicts with her current state which is utter suckage.

Khell DarkWolfNov 24, 201416 votes

... You didn't actually read any of the threads, did you?

I did because gameplay and balance was covered with them for months

Apparently Cass is supposed to bully people because she has to generate stacks and then scale extremely hard

Stashu lowballed the numbers on the rework and has been adjusting her power curve to be less painful and arbitrary, and is trying to accommodate her poison mage thing

But if you guys wanna keep raving about the lack of responses after the massive number of red posts you've gotten be my guest

All of the player feedback has been focused on:

The discontent for the passive being used as an arbitrary lever for a balancing perspective
Too much centric on Twin Fang
The discontent for the passive having any type of stacking mechanic (I.E. nasus/veigar farming)
Players voicing they don't like the passive and want something else
Bringing back the poison centric back outside of involving twin fangs
Players voicing concerns that they don't want or they're (Riot) putting too much focus onto a late game hyper scaling champion when she originally had a better early into a decent late game (inversed into what it is now)

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20143 votes

All of the player feedback has been focused on:

The discontent for the passive being used as an arbitrary lever for a balancing perspective

Too much centric on Twin Fang

The discontent for the passive having any type of stacking mechanic (I.E. nasus/veigar farming)

Players voicing they don't like the passive and want something else

Bringing back the poison centric back outside of involving twin fangs

Players voicing concerns that they don't want or they're (Riot) putting too much focus onto a late game hyper scaling champion when she originally had a better early into a decent late game (inversed into what it is now)

And again, he stated in his last thread he's evening out early/late and bringing power back to her poison

Khell DarkWolfNov 24, 201415 votes

And again, he stated in his last thread he's evening out early/late and bringing power back to her poison

k going back to what I've already covered in the other threads I'll repeat it again.

She cannot be balanced based off having this passive. Why?

It gives free passives (utility options outside items) such as percent scaling AP, Cooldown, a spell vampy heal off her twin fangs.

so in turn, they have an excuse to nerf her ratios because no one in their right mind would allow a single champion to have many free things to use to be good.

And it is sad because to reach any real damage compared to before pre-work, you have to reach Double the amount of AP since ratios have been reduced.

The passive can't stay in its iteration, there is no work around.

That is why players are mad.

Kowe The EwokNov 24, 201410 votes

Call a champion OP who was underplayed and underpowered for YEARS.

Sounds about right /sarcasm.

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20145 votes

Call a champion OP who was underplayed and underpowered for YEARS.

Sounds about right /sarcasm.

So I take it you didnt read a word I said

Cass isnt overpowered right now, but was difficult to tune before her rework and was nerfed some time ago after her fotm in s2

GorszNov 24, 20147 votes

She was fotm for a few weeks tops..

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 20146 votes

Yep, because of Spirit Visage, WotA and Hextech revolver being severely broken and her E's synergy with those.

After these items were fixed her nerfs stayed and nobody player her anymore. They just should have returned her to her orginal state once WotA abuse was fixed.

DemiluniSNov 25, 20142 votes

she was priority pick for almost an entire season, thank you

GorszNov 25, 20145 votes

You're 100% wrong and lying, thank you.

Meep ManNov 25, 20142 votes

Cassiopia was OP if you had the high amount of skill to play her. However, to a certain point, players become too smart for Cassiopia and went for more reliable damage. In a super CC team, old Cass destroyed.

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 20142 votes

So wait, she was OP but not played at LCS. She profited from hard CC and team - that must be forbidden. Why don't you open a nerf Fiddlesticks topic?

UPfreelyNov 24, 20149 votes

RIP Cassiopeia, you will be missed.

Sir TiddlesNov 25, 20149 votes

Q never had a .9 ap ratio. It was .8

This is actually not true. She was originally released with .9 ratio. Much later on it was nerfed to .8, which is where it was at the time of the rework.

And for the record, ap ratios have very little impact on the first 6 lvls of the game, that's why late game mages have high ratios and low base dmg, if cass's lane bullying was too strong, all riot had to do was nerf her base dmg by 20-40 points and tada! lane bully not scary anymore.

This is also not true. Early game base damage means more than ratios, but if you get a doran's ring and with AP runes/masteries you can get 40+ AP without much trouble. If your AP ratio is even .5, that is an extra 20 damage at level 1 which is a pretty solid amount of damage that early.

But nooooooooooooo, riot gutted her ratios in favor of slapping a sloppy passive chock full of nothing but invisible power. And not only did they strip her of any reasonable ratios, they also slashed her base dmgs, especially on her primary zoning tool miasma.

This however, is all too true. Q is too weak as-is, but the thing I am most sad about this rework is W no longer does damage. Passive health regen is almost as strong as the damage on miasma, making it effectively deal an extremely low amount of damage even when they stand in it for the full duration. Compared to Lux or Orianna's AoE slow+damage tool, it is pretty pathetic. But hey, you can press E right?

Cenobite AzazielNov 25, 20148 votes

Olaf'd and Karma'd =].

yellowbricksNov 25, 20146 votes

what do you know about laziness? you just sitting there playing the game when others making it for you, shut the fuck up. cass was in a state where she is either completely wrecks her enemy during the laning phase, or getting destroyed herself, and he had very little interaction with her opponent when she just sat back and poked while he couldn't do shit. They had an opportunity and tried to make her gameplay healthier, it didn't go well from the first shot, but they are still working on her, quit being a little bitch, and be patient

I've been patient for months now, it's become clear that Shatsu has no intention of making anything good out of this rework, any suggestions on trying another passive are ignored while Shatsu comes in every so often spouting a PR line like "we're happy with blah blah blah", never mind that everybody with a brain who liked old Cass absolutely despises this rework, and I'm through being nice.

I ask you again, how much are you being paid to be riot's shill? Because you're going around responding to every single post defending riot from any sort of criticism, and it's gotta be tiring I'm sure. No matter what you say, it doesn't change the fact that the rework was rushed, and turned out awful, and it just seems to be excuse after excuse at this point.

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 24, 20143 votes

k going back to what I've already covered in the other threads I'll repeat it again.

She cannot be balanced based off having this passive. Why?

It gives free passives (utility options outside items) such as percent scaling AP, Cooldown, a spell vampy heal off her twin fangs.

so in turn, they have an excuse to nerf her ratios because no one in their right mind would allow a single champion to have many free things to use to be good.

And it is sad because to reach any real damage compared to before pre-work, you have to reach Double the amount of AP since ratios have been reduced.

The passive can't stay in its iteration, there is no work around.

That is why players are mad.

And while she needs more AP she now gets more from her passive % boost

And it can work just fine as a gate on her scaling as long as he gets the numbers right

Khell DarkWolfNov 24, 201411 votes

And while she needs more AP she now gets more from her passive % boost

And it can work just fine as a gate on her scaling as long as he gets the numbers right

More AP from percentage gaining passive =/= Good, when Ratios are cut.

1.0 ratio means you get 100 dmg from 100 AP, .25 ratio means you get 25 dmg from 100.

If they're going to rework a champion, then they should "actually" rework the champion.

Making this passive and slapping on it to then call it one is a joke.

And we still haven't gotten into the other issues that others talk about regarding the problems with the rework that I listed.

WullfNov 25, 20141 votes

I must say in all the pureness and good will that I dispise you all Stashu haters.

He s working on it and if you think that this can be done in one month or two you are wrong,

Do you guys work? if not then be quiet. If you do and I am not thinking about McDonalds I mean real constructive work where your output matters, then you should know that this is not an easy task.

I believe that he loves doing his job (if you did not already ruined that joy) I believe that he cares for Cass and wants to do great. If not then all is truly in vain. But otherwise with support of comunity there cannot be bad result.

ElphrihaimNov 25, 20147 votes

I must say in all the pureness and good will that I dispise you all Stashu haters.

You can do that. I thank you for having another perspective!

He s working on it and if you think that this can be done in one month or two you are wrong,

Hmm, this is questionable. Other champion assets have been pushed through in merely weeks, so I think that it's definitely possible to show more.

Especially not-hooked-up works, like "BEJ is the direction we're taking based on the internal testing results of ABC, what do you guys think about that?"

Which wouldn't be hard at all to come up with, right?

I believe that he loves doing his job (if you did not already ruined that joy) I believe that he cares for Cass and wants to do great. If not then all is truly in vain. But otherwise with support of comunity there cannot be bad result.

He's not actually doing much with the community though, besides throwing out "this is what we're doing" and saying that he doesn't like how the discussion is going... At least, that's what I can tell. I haven't seen too many responses from him (they don't exist).

It's less "Stashu we hate you" and more-- "Stashu can you show us work" "Stashu can you show us something" "Stashu please we don't like this can you show us you care" "Stashu please actually do something" "Stashu please stop not doing things" "Stashu can we get a status update it's been a week since your last post and worlds have been over for a while" "Stashu you're out of excuses where are you" "Stashu your thread fell and is completely invisible" "Stashu can you pin this" "Stashu can you talk to us" "Stashu?"-- a gradual thing.

WullfNov 25, 20142 votes

Well, i might have went a little overboard.

Though every person is different. Some like to comunicate some dont. Some need a little bit more time than others.

In the end we do not see into what is happening there.

I am not saying he is holy and right. But this kind of attude (OP's attitude) is ruthless and generaly wrong. I would even say toxic.

ElphrihaimNov 25, 20145 votes

Well, i might have went a little overboard.

It's fine to be passionate.

Stashu thinks otherwise, if you followed his posts.

Though every person is different. Some like to comunicate some dont. Some need a little bit more time than others.

I certainly fall into the latter-- but the happiness of many people is at stake. It only makes sense to bend your own self if it will make others happy.

In the end we do not see into what is happening there.

This is true. We do not. We have no way of knowing what is really going on.

I am not saying he is holy and right. But this kind of attude (OP's attitude) is ruthless and generaly wrong. I would even say toxic.

It's generally wrong. In this case, however, it's mostly accurate-- Stashu made multiple threads and says that he's read the feedback, but a majority of the changes are numerical or shift power into pressing the E button.

The majority of complaints were either

a) "Stashu I don't like this passive..." "because you gimped all of Cassiopeia's long-ranged AP ratios to make power for it" / "it's very boring and just locks Cassio up instead of actually being useful"

b) "Stashu I want to be able to actually do something besides negate enemy health regen without pressing my E or R keys"

And neither of these were fully addressed.

'b' was pointed to the example of Anivia. However, the community (and I as well) held the view that while Anivia's E is not the most satisfying alone, Anivia's Q and R (the enablers for a powerful E) are satisfying alone. With Cassiopeia, her Q and W (the enablers for E spam) are absolutely pathetic alone. Both Anivia and Cassiopeia do have somewhat unsatisfying E when used without an enabler, the difference is that Anivia's enablers are satisfying while Cassiopeia's are not anymore.

'a' hasn't actually been responded to much at all; and if it has I can't recall it so I would love it if somebody pointed me in the right direction d:

WullfNov 25, 20141 votes

I have nothing to say to that.

You seem a rational guy/lass

I like you.

OleandervineNov 25, 20148 votes

I must say in all the pureness and good will that I dispise you all Stashu haters.

He s working on it and if you think that this can be done in one month or two you are wrong,

Do you guys work? if not then be quiet. If you do and I am not thinking about McDonalds I mean real constructive work where your output matters, then you should know that this is not an easy task.

I believe that he loves doing his job (if you did not already ruined that joy) I believe that he cares for Cass and wants to do great. If not then all is truly in vain. But otherwise with support of comunity there cannot be bad result.

First of all, I don't think people hate him, just his stubbornness and inability to budge on her passive design perspective. In the last thread he posted, tons of people, including myself, gave many suggestions on how to improve this passive without removing it, as he was absurdly adamant about keeping it. Yet every suggestion the community had "wasn't right" and "didn't fit the goal" of the passive. So being annoyed at this is very understandable. While this is at the most basic level community communication, it isn't really substantial because his approach is "Great suggestion, but I like mine better." And also, don't you DARE devalue the work of those who work in fast food you over-privileged brat. Their work is important - it keeps them in a home and feeds their family. Just because it's not making a game for you or working in an office doesn't make it any less important, especially if your ass decides to go through a drive through one day when you need a quick meal.

Kowe The EwokNov 25, 20148 votes

Mainly this. His blatent refusal to accept that the vast majority of Cassiopeia players hates his concept (stubbornness) is outrageous.

He tries to tweak save a horribly flawed design concept just so it doesn't appear as if he was wrong to begin with.