Can you finally take some time to properly balance Yasuo? (not op qq thread)

SnowFall·Jan 18, 2015·17 votes·3,602 views

I'm not saying he is ridiculous op or something, he could be op in 1 out of 100 cases, but it's utterly annoying how hard you have to try to avoid feeding phase which lasts for whole game. Look at his winrate also. I could just pick with samurai skin and start right clicking, while not sweating or showing over 9000 apm for the same result. The last nerf did really shorten the gap between the phase where Yasuo is feeding machine and where he is killing machine. How often do you see a with at least 50% less deaths than kills? I would only pick Yasuo now, where favorable allies are picked , no champion should be so reliant on other champions' specifics. Do you know what my friends call him after you nerfed his already miniscule amount of hp? That's right, the Paperbag Yasuo, the bursters wouldn't even want use their dfgs to finish this guy. What, should buy banshee? Oh sorry, can't live with 2 or 1 or 0 damage items like the rest of the bruisers anymore

78 Comments

DrMarshSwampJan 18, 201528 votes

I think the Double Crit Chance should just be removed, as I think that part of his passive is the biggest problem with trying to balance Yasuo right now.

TomA3XJan 18, 20152 votes

Agreed, but his numbers would need a significant buff. Or, they could remove his assassin playstyle, and make him more tanky and fighterish. He is extremely reliant on that passive at the moment.

DrMarshSwampJan 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, but his numbers would need a significant buff. Or, they could remove his assassin playstyle, and make him more tanky and fighterish. He is extremely reliant on that passive at the moment.

Yeah right now that passive is a double edged sword - if you nerf him in other areas he becomes more reliant on it, and if you buff him in other areas it just makes him overall stronger.

Removing the passive would allow him to be gradually buffed in other areas, giving him a little more flexibility overall.

ZamiakeJan 18, 20151 votes

but then what would his passive be at all then? you are recommending complete removal of a passive without recommending a completely new one. To obtain one must give something of equal value in return. Equivialent Exchange

DirewolfiezJan 18, 20152 votes

Equivalent exchange goes out the window when a kit is so inherently flawed that unless you rework the entire kit, it'll still be a problem. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Yasuo has the Holy Trinity of Damage, CC, and Mobility. Sure, he's item dependant, but he snowballs REALLY hard, and he's able to waveclear without any real effort once he gets Shiv, so it's really damn hard to keep him down, even if he's feeding. He can take out squishies and tanks (due to his ult) with ease, and there is really nothing you can do, besides CCing him, that will save anyone on your team, yet in close quarters his kit lets him naturally dodge CC if the player using him has any real skill.

If you want Yasuo buffs, about 1/3 of his kit has to go away. He cannot be a tank killer and an assassin at the same time, and his x2 crit is the major reason for his repeated nerfs. How about he gets a normal single passive instead of the double one you're so sure he needs? That's what most champs have, and they don't usually get banned every time they get buffed.

ZootSuitZombieJan 18, 20151 votes

Well, he does have 2 passives: His Crit passive and his Flow passive. If Riot removes the crit passive, they could buff up his flow passive and make it do more than just give a passive shield every once in a while.

For example, I remember someone posting about making Yasuo's wind wall be able to stay up for as long as Yasuo has flow (that's the general idea, obviously numbers would need tweaking). Taking a flow-centered passive approach is what I would prefer to see. IMO, when I think of Yasuo, the WIND samurai, I think of him being able to do cool things with his wind powers, rather than a mini-shield and double crit.

ZamiakeJan 19, 20151 votes

but how useful is a longer shield really? Whats the point if some one following close behind flashes over it and kills him any way? I think the crits are needed in some way but i donno. Yasou is a strange champion and fixing him would require a complete rework in general

deadlychuckJan 18, 20158 votes

I don't understand why riot added the double crit chance to begin with... they built him in such a specific manner that the result was trying to balance an exponential scale. It's just to easy to make him useless or insanely to strong.

It's also not like he even needed it, i can think of at least one other champion who loves to build crit because he can crit with one of his skills, yet they don't find the need to give him double the chance Gangplank .

My point is, that just by simply having two auto attacks would make people want to buy crit on him, hands down. Though trying to balance around getting double gold efficiency on one of the most imbalanced stats in the game is just absurd. Even if they reduce his crit damage by 10% it doesn't change the fact that crit makes you hit like a damn truck.

KoboldJan 18, 20151 votes

The crits hit like a Truck is a problem I have been trying to think of a solution to for a while but the best i can think of is reduce crits to 175% and IE makes it 225% so its not an abilities worth of damage every partial second (AA). Doing in depth math on this as the ADC itemization changes destroyed AD casters and made it so BT is a mostly useless item compared to IE.

Guy Fox TeemoJan 18, 20152 votes

Btw yasuo isn't overpowerd at the moment. He excells when he has a good team comp around him but if you don't. You better hope you get fed in the early game where yasuo get extremlly nerfed all through out his release. Nerf his his shields damage. Nerf to his mobility (recently buffed slightly) Took away his shield regen passive for using his e's. Lowered the damage on his e. Etc. I currently thing he's overall in a good position right now if the right team comp is built around him. But if it isn't he doesn't really do much unless he's really fed. And the thing about the double crit chance is that he must be forced to buy an item for it to be good. You can't do other builds with yasuo, that wouldn't work you have to build crit where as someone like tryndamere gets crit from his passive alone. And you can do differn't build paths. Yasuo on the other hand is forced a certain build.

Jacky ShenJan 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the Double Crit Chance should just be removed, as I think that part of his passive is the biggest problem with trying to balance Yasuo right now.

This guy is not saying yasuo is OP. He's saying that he's been nerfed into oblivion now.

76SummersJan 18, 20158 votes

im all for a rework of the wind samurai...i dont care if they take the crit away either..

SpicayJan 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

im all for a rework of the wind samurai...i dont care if they take the crit away either..

In what way does he need a rework?

He's obviously not hard to balance as his win rate constantly sways based on buffs and nerfs, he has the kind of mobility this game needs more of (situational mobility in that he needs targets to dash through and can't just jump over anything he wants), and he has a strong team fight presence in the late game while having a rough early game like a melee carry should have.

Bouffon dAnglaisJan 18, 20151 votes

When will people understand that win rates are not the Bible when it comes balancing? Win rates depend on so many different things and that particular buff or nerf doesn't necessarily affect his win rate.

76SummersJan 18, 20152 votes

remove the crit chance and buff him other places..thats what makes him broken...like isnt his shield walking around enough???

ModKnightsKemplarJan 18, 20156 votes

I dunno if Yasuo can really exist and be balanced the way he is now... Perhaps that's your point, in which case, I agree. It's more than a numbers thing. His kit is overloaded. Yasuo and Kalista, both designed by CertainlyT (spelling?), are in the same boat. Overloaded kits, perceived, largely, to be OP on release, garbage win rate begs to differ.

It's just really hard to make a champ with that much stuff actually work. They both need to be pared down to their core champion identity and get rid of the fluff. Nearly every ability, on both champs, has multiple paragraphs of tooltip just to figure out how they work. They are just plain too complicated to be balanced in a game like this.

junglerboy16Jan 18, 20151 votes

If they gave back Yasuo his higher strength shield, gave back shield generation on windwall rank, and made his ult only proc off of his own knock up, while removing his crit modifier for a more standard steroid like +% AD, they could push him back toward more of a healthy, hard-initiating high damage fighter.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 18, 20153 votes

But see, it's this sentiment that I have deep issues with: then he's a high damage initiator with a strong shield. Complete BS. Again, the numbers will have to be tweaked so that none of those things are actually true, in which case, we are back where we started, or he's OP. He needs fewer things. You can't have high damage, a very useful shield, insane mobility, and initiation on one champ. It's crazy.

Edit: And "he's melee" is not a defense. Other melees do not have kits like this. No one does.

junglerboy16Jan 18, 20151 votes

Then just cut the damage completely. Having durability, mobility, and strong self initiation on one kit is not a bad thing.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 18, 20151 votes

Ha, that would be balanced. But I don't think that's the way to go with Yasuo. I think his initiation is what I would prefer to go. But, you know, that's all opinion. Something absolutely has to go.

Rinky DinkyJan 19, 20151 votes

Kalista is getting buffs m8.

I honestly dont think she is op. The amount of teamwork that champ needs is crazy.

If she has a team that fights around/with her though, she is unstoppable

ModKnightsKemplarJan 19, 20151 votes

Well, my point will be made with whether or not that changes things. You seem optimistic that she'll be fun and balanced. I am not.

With a kit that has an auto-scout, best kiting in game, % health damage, an initiation tool, and poke even through minion waves, I just don't think she'll ever be in a good place. You can disagree if you want. Certainly, I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see how a champ could be allowed to do all those things well. Thought experiment only, it can't be possible. If she kites, initiates, and can scout better than Ashe, but can also poke like MF and does % health damage like Vayne, she just made three champs obsolete. The take away is that she cannot possibly be as good at those things as those champs, to be balanced. In which case, she won't be fun or good.

I don't see a way around it. Feel free to explain why I'm wrong, but I can't rationalize it on my own.

Rinky DinkyJan 19, 20151 votes

You might be right. We'll see what the future has in store for her.

RikariJan 18, 20155 votes

no champion should be so reliant on other champions' specifics.

Kalista

exiledFromBadmenJan 18, 20153 votes

Umm, the same person designed them. coughCertainlyTcough

RaptameiJan 18, 20153 votes

"Yasuo is useless, he has 45% winrate" "Yasuo is toxic, winrates mean nothing, he has no mana"

-Boards

Long Dong WukongJan 18, 20155 votes

It's almost like people aren't a hivemind and have wildly varying opinions on absolutely everything.

This is why social media killed sociology and psychology.

Samflash3Jan 18, 20153 votes

Wait is this a Yasuo buff thread?

Really? Are you serious?

Please, No. There are many champions who got majorly affected by the nerf to IE. Yasuo did but he's not high on that list.

Yash GautamJan 18, 20152 votes

[deleted]

SpicayJan 18, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Yasuo is actually pretty op. It's hard to gank him, he knocks you up and does a lot of damage with q, and has 100% crit increase. Wind wall is op because it blocks all projectiles from enemy champions. His e adds tons of mobility and his r does a lot of damage AND can be activated by other champions.

This sentence sounds so Bronze that it actually hurts.

Stars ShaperJan 18, 20152 votes

Imo Riot should be more brave and start to make champions able to be strong if played good rather than having them in a weak phase unless fed.

This what Yasuo was pre nerf. I hoped ppl would instead insist on having more champion with this pattern instead of crying for nerfs because they didn't want to adapt.

SpicayJan 18, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yh142b58,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-01-18T14:41:42.283+0000)

Imo Riot should be more brave and start to make champions able to be strong if played good rather than having them in a weak phase unless fed.

This what Yasuo was pre nerf. I hoped ppl would instead insist on having more champion with this pattern instead of crying for nerfs because they didn't want to adapt.

While I agree with this, it's troublesome to keep making "strong when played well" champions because it causes issues at higher levels of play.

And yeah, the only time Yasuo was "broken" was right after they added the shield-proc to his ultimate..any time before or after he has been perfectly fine or even slightly weak unless played with a decent enough understanding of the champion. He's literally just another melee carry like Master Yi, Fiora or Tryndamere, except he trades off all-out damage for more utility.

{quoted}

I dont think he needs a buff. He may have somewhat low hp start game.... but he has a double barrier and gets sorta tanky late game.

Uhh, define "tanky". He has his passive for a shield sure, but you don't get to control when and why it procs and it only lasts for 1 second. In terms of base stats, he's not even as tanky as Master Yi.

JunkοJan 18, 20151 votes

If you manage to double proc his shield (very rarely though) his shield adds up to 940. Sure it's only 1 second, but that's still quite a lot. It's almost like being Kayle ulted for a second.

Knight SoIaire Jan 18, 20152 votes

pre nerf yasuo was able to do too much when played even medicorely

what riot did was just cut anything that was fun and interesting about him to preserwe his damage and scaling with items

SpicayJan 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yh142b58,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2015-01-18T16:14:23.298+0000)

pre nerf yasuo was able to do too much when plaed even medicorely

what riot did was just cut anything that was fun and interesting about him to preserwe his damage and scaling with items

The fuck are you talking about? Everything that makes him fun is there..they literally did nothing to that.

Knight SoIaire Jan 18, 20153 votes

shield was nerfed to the point where its just an early harras blocker allowing him to lane vs ranged champions then the shield kinda falls off most of his flow managment was cut away (flow gained per dash, flow gained from moving) dash stacking cut away to be the half of what it was ult range cut away to match his own knockup range (its a little bigged but thats to account for him actualy moving)

his most unique and deserving the most recognition mechanic was his shield since it was the thing that broke the rule that ranged champs always win when lanin vs meele champions

while most of his problems came from him being so good with items (grab static and dominate), riot simply ravaged everything else to preserve the problem

he is still good but his kit is still toxic as fuuu.... and riot just made that toxicity the only real thing he has

JunkοJan 18, 20151 votes

if you double proc his shield late game, it is worth 940 health. I have no idea how that falls off late game.

But yeah he got a ton of nerfs in the wrong places, but he is still really fun to play IMO.

Knight SoIaire Jan 18, 20151 votes

but will it actualy block ?

the only case in which it actualy does is when he is hit by a realy strong skill most of the time the shield just expires along the way in the rain of aoe or during the time an assasin bursts you down

but he is still really fun to play IMO.

es he is he is an epic champion but as he stands he will probably bounce from below medicore to op (his kit likes to snowball, either he sucks entire game or he shines, thats a bad thing )

qetzelJan 18, 20152 votes

I disagree with one point. You said that "no champion should be so reliant on other champions' specifics". I believe that picking a team in this game is more important than picking a champion. If we allow every champion to be picked in every team then we get the Thresh or the (old) Lee SIn case where you only pick the strongest champion.

Every champion needs a reason to be played. For Yasuo it is his synergy with knockups.

YakasJan 18, 20152 votes

All I know now is yas takes aloalot of skill to play. It's not just jump in anD get a penta anymore. And he is fine where he is. All it takes is 1-2 ganks and he is gone. Putting an item reliant champion behind is the best thing you can do.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20151 votes

I'd be happy if they would only decrease the time of his windwall active, because it counters most mages with range and that's pretty annoying. If Yasuo plays around it, using his E to switch from side to side of his windwall, it becomes pretty annoying. And the increased width of it is pretty annoying too, like for what does he need such a big windwall shield if he's orginially designed to be a bruiser?

Long Dong WukongJan 18, 20151 votes

I'd rather Wind Wall just buff allies in like a 600 radius to absorb a single ranged hit. It serves the same purpose, except it won't block 500 projectiles and be annoying as fuck, at which point they can modify the rest of his kit to not be on the weaker side.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20151 votes

whats the point on that? It would be just a yasuo passive for allies.. Reducing the active time of his windwall from 3 seconds to 1 would be a great balance change for him in my opinion.

Long Dong WukongJan 18, 20151 votes

Because it will block an entire Miss Fortune ult, a Nami wave, and Ahri combo, all at the same time? Absorbing a single ranged hit is the exact same thing as a 1 second wind wall.

In fact, a one second wind wall would probably require like half the cooldown to keep it worth the slot. I'd take a low CD windwall that was only good for a second over the current wind wall, tbh.

If you just want to reduce his windwall duration to one second without compensation, why? He's already weak, there's no reason to nerf the character. Not that they don't nerf weak characters for fucked up strange reasons already.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Long Dong Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yh142b58,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-01-18T15:21:56.647+0000)

I'd rather Wind Wall just buff allies in like a 600 radius to absorb a single ranged hit.

A single ranged hit. it would absord one wave of mf ult, the full nami ult. and a bit of Ahris burst combo. Im still wondering if the target gets still cc'd, since it'll directly hit the target instead of the wall.

And yasuo being weak.. well, he's fairly balanced in my opinion. He does a good amount of damage, has like two shields in his kit, and his shield recharges everytime he ultimates into an enemy. He's squishy for sure, but his passive does absorb a good amount of damage.

Long Dong WukongJan 19, 20151 votes

It would absorb a single wave of an MF ult, or a Nami ult, or a single Ahri spell, or a single adc auto attack.

Keyword or, as opposed to

Because it will block an entire Miss Fortune ult, a Nami wave, and Ahri combo, all at the same time

Also no, he's weak. His base stats are so just unbelievably atrocious for a melee champion that his weak early game is damn near a "feeding phase", to the point that is late game fantasy is quite literally a fantasy.

Oh, and they just chopped 10% crit off of Yasuo by moving it to Phantom Dancer. PD is not a viable item on Yasuo. Shiv is a must-buy and fills the same role.

but his passive does absorb a good amount of damage.

The passive that's been nerfed on like 5 different patches to the point that he almost can't generate it in lane, when he actually needs it?

TomA3XJan 18, 20152 votes

What if his windwall flew out from him, and as it flew out it blocked whatever, but it dissipated when it reaches max range. So in other words, it would feel almost like he was parrying something. Just a thought. Of course that would be a significant nerf, but i thought it sounded cool.

It Is I EmotoJan 18, 20152 votes

It sounds intresting for sure. So like, the more it flew away, the more it dissolves? That's what I've understood.

TomA3XJan 18, 20152 votes

Yeah, exactly, those were my thoughts, so it only lasts a few seconds. So he is forced to use it reactively.

KoboldJan 18, 20151 votes

Very similar to Fiora's W but for abilities and is instant instead of stays up?