garen and yorick nerfs for the bottom level mmr

Critmaster Garen·Aug 10, 2018·15 votes·4,965 views

because 9 years to make the champion viable enough for people to barely make it into masters with him was apparantly not long enough.

and fuck the expectation of people to improve their play. instead we nerf champions to cater to people who are still struggling to understand the basics of the game.

{quoted}

Garen nerf - Garen's too strong at this point. We'll be looking to take power out in ways that nerfs him more in lower MMR, less in high, given it's low MMR that he's particularly out of line

Yorick nerf - Same deal as Garen, targeting low MMR

buckle up darius mains, because youre probably next. especially when one of his strongest counters gets nerfed aswell.

41 Comments

RexxieeAug 10, 20187 votes

diamond + wr: 53.5% pick rate: 11%

Nice "low mmr" here, garen has absurd stats at ALL elos.

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20187 votes

{quoted}

diamond + wr: 53.5% pick rate: 11%

Nice "low mmr" here, garen has absurd stats at ALL elos.

ya, thats believable. because you didnt make up shit before.

like back when you said that he had a 15% play rate and 56% winrate.

because you took the play rate on the release day of his new skin, and the highest variance value in winrate ind diamond+ on a single day about a week later.

surely you just dont want to see him nerfed, because youre a riven main and dont like playing against him.

Fízz v2Aug 10, 20185 votes

Darius is even pro play viable rn tho

also garen isnt only good in low elo, he even has very good stats in diamond+

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-10T16:50:12.264+0000)

Darius is even pro play viable rn tho

also garen isnt only good in low elo, he even has very good stats in diamond+

garens winrate around diamond+ has been just barely above 50% or less than 50% these past couple of weeks.

at plat+ his winrate is almost 52% right now which isnt even close to warrant nerfs. were looking at another slight meta shift with tanks being brought back into top lane aswell.

celerity is going to get nerfed with the next patch, which affects garen aswell.

you can literally read meddlers reasoning up there, that the nerfs for both champions are targeted at low mmr.

D357R0Y3RAug 10, 20184 votes

is listed tier 1 by opgg he has 54% win rate in plat + 53% win rate in diamond+ high pick rate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/diamond/plus/champion/Garen/

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

is listed tier 1 by opgg

based on what? the decision of the people who are running the site. if you want to climb to plat with him, then yes hes probably the best top laner right now.

at higher ratings, there are still stronger and more impactful champions.

his winrate. for plat+ :

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/garen/platinum

across all regions just below 52%

NA almost 53% EUW same KR 49.6%

in diamond+, his winrate ranges from 44% in korea to 51% in NA

overall hes slightly on the strong side at higher mmr, but not op territory and not enough to warrant nerfs.

meddler literally said, that theyre nerfing both champions because theyre "too strong at low mmr". i even quoted him for you.

D357R0Y3RAug 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-10T19:43:51.638+0000)

based on what? win rate, pick rate, cs per minute, KDA

league of graph

so you list a single website, when 2 others show other stats

enjoy his nerf fam

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

win rate, pick rate, cs per minute, KDA

so you list a single website, when 2 others show other stats

enjoy his nerf fam

those other two sites have been known to be quite unreliable recently.

i stopped using champion.gg when it listed garen as one of the best counters to garen.

RavenhaleAug 10, 20181 votes

Well maybe in blind pick... [sg-lulu]

D357R0Y3RAug 10, 20182 votes

i'm not using championgg

i'm using opgg and lolalytics opgg has been listed by meddler as the most reliable source once

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

i'm not using championgg

i'm using opgg and lolalytics opgg has been listed by meddler as the most reliable source once

once. like i said, they havent been reliable sources anymore.

mostly since riot changed their api, that these sites used to collect their data.

like i said. meddler literally wrote it out for you. those nerfs are targeted at low mmr play, not high mmr play.

True GarenAug 14, 20185 votes

{quoted}

is listed tier 1 by opgg he has 54% win rate in plat + 53% win rate in diamond+ high pick rate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/diamond/plus/champion/Garen/

That page also says this:

"Taking into account win rate and summoner rank Garen is ranked 78 amongst all champions in the hands of an expert."

Sounds like he's just about average (or even a little less).

HítlerDidNtWrongAug 16, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=True Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-14T08:14:51.773+0000)

That page also says this:

"Taking into account win rate and summoner rank Garen is ranked 78 amongst all champions in the hands of an expert."

Sounds like he's just about average (or even a little less).

Where are all these biased salty low elo players getting 53 and 54% hes at 51.56% WR which is very healthy, some jackass threw him to the top of the tier list like a mongoloid though which leads me to believe whoever adjusts the tier list on op.gg is biased. If they want to be pissed about someone with high WR they should direct it to wukong who is the king of top lane right now.

RavenhaleAug 10, 20185 votes

How do you target nerf a champion for low MMR anyways? Is there some hidden "if game MMR = x, then champion dmg = x"???

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

How do you target nerf a champion for low MMR anyways? Is there some hidden "if game MMR = x, then champion dmg = x"???

i dont know what theyre planning. he said something about nerfing the ghouls, since low mmr players dont really know how to deal with them (auto attacking them is apparantly really hard), and possibly giving him some strategic power somewhere else. he also said, they might probably just straight nerf him.

RavenhaleAug 10, 20181 votes

Eh, I played a Shyvana into Yorick (well, blind pick, this was not intentional). Pretty easy to dodge his kit. Ghouls were a little annoying but quick to dispatch. Probably would have gone even better if I had not tried to stat check him at 6.

I didn't feel like he was any less oppressive than Illaoi or Darius.

DrCyanideAug 10, 20181 votes

Actually, he mentioned that a bit with Yorick (while also mentioning they hadn't even started to investigate what could be done).

Different mechanics vary in effectiveness at different levels. With Yorick, his ghouls are particularly effective in low MMR, while significantly less effective at higher MMR (he mentions that Heimerdinger is in a similar boat with his turrets). So a nerf to ghouls damage to champions should hurt low elo more than high elo.

RavenhaleAug 10, 20181 votes

Eh, it only feels like the ghouls jump on you if you get hit by his E. Dodge that and they tend to stick to your minions or your tower.

DrCyanideAug 10, 20181 votes

If you get hit by his E... or if you try to all in on him and he summons the Maiden with her ghouls. Having played Yorick many times, you'd be surprised how often someone gets a bit of a lead early, kills you 2-3 times in lane, then thinks they can disrespect you and your ult from there on out.

5050BSAug 10, 20181 votes

You make the champ take SOME skill.

PandaNator43Aug 10, 20185 votes

Balancing the game around high elo is the ideal, this is a competitive game after all.

But bronze and silver make up 60% of the player base. To totally neglect them would be a mistake.

So I think Meddler has the right goal in mind, hopefully they can deliver on it.

Garen probably needs more than just number adjustments. Short of even a small rework, I have not idea how to nerf Garen more heavily for low elo.

HítlerDidNtWrongAug 16, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Balancing the game around high elo is the ideal, this is a competitive game after all.

But bronze and silver make up 60% of the player base. To totally neglect them would be a mistake.

So I think Meddler has the right goal in mind, hopefully they can deliver on it.

Garen probably needs more than just number adjustments. Short of even a small rework, I have not idea how to nerf Garen more heavily for low elo.

Thinking about it logically if a champion does well in low MMR and doesn't in high MMR is that character unbalanced, or is it actually that low experience players just more likely not to understand certain mechanics? Nerfing a character because they do well against bad players IS not and Never will be balance in any form of the definition.

PandaNator43Aug 17, 20181 votes

Are we yelling now?!?!?!! :)

Nerfing a character because they do well against bad players IS not and Never will be balance in any form of the definition.

LoL tests many different skills. Mechanics (micro), strategy (macro), communication, map awareness, game knowledge, etc.

LoL has several audiences: High elo, low elo, soloQ, team play, etc.

Each audience tests each skill in different proportions. Some champions kits skew to be really powerful at a given skill. Ryze's ult is a good example, it is extremely powerful when used by a coordinated team, and thus Ryze is a strong pick in pro play. (or has been at times this year).

Garen is another example. his kit has such little mechanical demand that low elo players aren't penalized for their poor mechanics.

You absolutely can balance the game for the target audience of low elo SoloQ players.

But I think what you really mean is that they shouldn't. I mostly agree.

Care to elaborate on why you think balancing the game for low elo SoloQ is a mistake?

MOLTinaTORAug 10, 20184 votes

Not my yorick D:

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Not my yorick D:

i dont agree with that either.

DragonSheaAug 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Not my yorick D:

Metoo

Daedric EtwahlAug 11, 20182 votes

As someone who's been trying to offmain Yorick for a while now this makes me sad too

5050BSAug 10, 20181 votes

He is not that strong too. He has counters and can be controlled even late game. Unlike Garen who once ahead just spins and kills people.

DragonSheaAug 10, 20183 votes

Meddler, you motherfucking little scumbag. Having strong Low Elo champs force people to play well. Here is the deal with Juggernauts and they playstyle; Dumb players use them to curb stomp other Dumb players. Smart Players make Dumb Juggernaut players look like the idiots they are. And Smart Juggernaut Players have a chance at making a fool out of more flashy players by exploiting their weaknesses

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20183 votes

the main thing im trying to fight for now, is that they dont just straight nerf those champions, but at the very least give them power shifts with a set of buffs together with these nerfs, that preserve their viability at high mmr when theyre reducing their impact at low mmr.

a straight nerf to these champions would honestly just be a slap to the face.

for garen they should shave some damage off his q and buff the animation speed on the ability.

this would mean at low mmr hed get nerfed, but at high mmr hed trade damage for reliability to apply his silence before his opponents cram movement, cc or other abilities into the time the animation takes to play.

for example even if you stand right next to an ally, you will never be able to prevent a Zed from ulting your buddy with decisive strike. the animation speed is too slow to have a chance to connect before zeds ult goes off, and he will always 100% reliably be able to ult even if you react to him perfectly.

the long animation timer of garens q has a larger impact at high mmr where people have better reaction times, compared to low mmr.

it also makes the ability a rather shitty auto attack cancel, which is another mechanic that people in the lowest divisions arent using consistently.

yorick shouldnt even be touched at all to be honest.

SalsonAug 10, 20182 votes

Well Garen needs a rework for a while now. A champion having 14% playrate and 54% winrate, while not being viable in Chalenger is in no way healthy for the game. His passive is the worst part, and the Villain mechanic isn't that good either.

I wouldn't be worried about Darius. As long as there is something to dodge, a champ has clear weaknesses, and that gives him a lot more leeway than Garen.

Ignika DAug 11, 20182 votes

they need rework villain because you get unrewarded for doing good imagine making a good roam as a top laner and get marked so you return to lane to die to him since he is one of the hardest champions to kill in game and now the ulti got % missing hp

VermillionWolfAug 10, 20181 votes

NOO LEAVE MY DARIUS PLAY CATCH THE MOUSE IS HARD ENOUGH

6SfoolAug 10, 20181 votes

I'm good with that. When stats came out it showed I had a 70% winrate with Yorick, and I really don't try that hard. Most of his power comes from people not knowing how to deal with him. If they tune him to be less viable in lower elos, then he is a bit weaker, but is less of a pubstomper. And I don't like pubstompers.

ShirukuSamaAug 11, 20181 votes

Nah. Rito's favorite Juggernaut, Darius won't be nerfed.

GewaltherrscherAug 16, 20181 votes

With patch 8.16 garens winrate dropped from 52.93% in diamond+ to 43.25% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Garen/ meddler plans to nerf Garen even more so that would probably drop his winrate sub 40%. Garen needs a change and not a nerf.

Hello Meddler, I hope the Garen nerfs are not a statcheck because that wont solve the core problems that Garen has.

Garens-state: he stomps people in low elo// abilities -> binary /mobility is not even close to be as good as other meta toplaners gaping flaws->(kitable, has barely any CC)

There are 3 parties when it comes to Garen. Group 1 to 3

1.) Riot wants to keep Garen as a champ for beginners 2.) People that get stomped in lane by Garen mains are in bronze/silver 3.) Garen mains that play him in high elo that get beaten up in their lanes because of the reasons above

Now this is how it should be: To satisfy all 3 groups Garen needs changes to his kit that keep him a basic champion with abilities that allow players with a higher skill ceilling to outplay his opponent.

Possible Solution to satisfy all 3 Groups:

1.) Keep the general frame of his kit Q/W/E/R how it is 2.)Take away the unreliable (RNG) Villian mechanic that destroys people in low elo/ and add CC to his R so Garen becomes usefull in teamfights 3.) add something to his kit that rewards skillfull players and punishes if the player misses the play*

*Here is the solution or my thoughts : If Garen activates his Q and reaches a certain distance to his Q target, he can leap forward by pressing Q for a 2nd time then he deals bonus damage on hit. IF Garen does not connect then his Q cooldown extends by 4 seconds or X amount of time needs PBE testing! To compensate the removal of the villian mechanic that is an unreliable (RNG) and unfun mechanic his NEW R draws people in X distance of sucessfull execution of the enemy towards the impact area of his ult and slows them for X amount of time.

SugeMinPikkAug 16, 20181 votes

He's got a positive winrate in korean plat+

Champions like Garen, Yi, and Trynd should never have positive winrates in korean plat+

GewaltherrscherAug 16, 20181 votes

Nerfing his numbers wont solve the problem read my other comment garen needs a change/rework. I hope meddler understands that.

SugeMinPikkAug 16, 20181 votes

Also, according to op.gg, in NA, in the past 30 days, it takes until plat for garen to drop from the #1 winrate spot, doesn't drop out of the top 5 until diamond. His only 50% winrate is in master. In every other rank, he's at least 53%

I didn't feel like taking and uploading 8 screenshots so here's a video instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXY6OWTCIM

(edit) if OP could delete this comment I guarantee he would LMAO pathetic

Critmaster GarenAug 16, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Also, according to op.gg, in NA, in the past 30 days, it takes until plat for garen to drop from the #1 winrate spot, doesn't drop out of the top 5 until diamond. His only 50% winrate is in master. In every other rank, he's at least 53%

I didn't feel like taking and uploading 8 screenshots so here's a video instead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGXY6OWTCIM

(edit) if OP could delete this comment I guarantee he would LMAO pathetic

the past 30 days are irrelevant when riot just dropped a patch that shifted the top lane meta around again and brought tanks back into the game.

why is it important how strong garen was a month ago in a 1 shot meta filled with lethality stackers, when he just dropped heavily in winrate right now?

the celerity nerfs affected him aswell, since he uses this rune on his highest win % builds. mostly to empower the impact of his q.

everything below plat is irrelevant for champion balance. its up to the players down there to improve themsleves. it doesnt make sense trying to balance the game around low mmr. it never did and is completely backwards approach to handling the game.

its like changing the rules of chess for everyone, including world champions, because a couple of amateurs have issues understanding the basics of the game. how does this make sense?

SugeMinPikkAug 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YchvFpEy,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2018-08-16T18:58:31.155+0000)

the past 30 days are irrelevant when riot just dropped a patch that shifted the top lane meta around again and brought tanks back into the game.

How about the past 7 days? How about today? Here's another 16 screenshots that I don't feel like taking and uploading https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbY4nQLLAx0