Why doesnt static shiv scale with AD like ludens scales with AP

Moonfall Saber·Mar 3, 2018·26 votes·1,803 views

Just saying 2600 gold for a that does more damage than a 3300 gold is an issue

60 Comments

Professor WardMar 3, 201821 votes

Ludens gives self scaling ap, making the ability it procs stronger and itself stronger just by having it. Also single abilities TEND to hit harder than single auto attacks, and ludens is usually rushed.

Although shiv does absolutely need a damage nerf.

you need 600 ap for ludens to match shiv WITHOUT crit.

DeusVultMar 4, 20185 votes

1.Shiv needs to deal physical damage, ADCs stacking AD don't need a random magic damage burst portion of their damage to increase how hard it is to itemize against them when they get ahead.

Ludens deals 100+10%AP in its proc. Meaning that if you do not rush it as a first item its damage becomes even less relevant. By comparison shiv deals 60-160 to champs (damage based on level) or 99-264 to minions. This damage can crit (up to 150-400 with IE to champs, 247-660 damage to minions) The average champ gets shiv around level 9, when it deals 91 damage (and can crit) So shiv is defacto better than ludens at all time during the game, while costing less money and you can get RFC to make it better.
Single abilities tend to deal more damage than autos early in the game, but are out-shadowed by ADs multiplicative scaling in the late game. They are also conditional and harder to hit most of the time.

DeusVultMar 4, 20185 votes

{quoted} 1 1 2

Damn boards and their auto formatting [zombie-brand-mindblown]

It Hertz When IPMar 4, 20184 votes

It's because you don't have a space between "1." and "Shiv" on the first line.

Bob the ToastrMar 4, 20182 votes

Single abilities tend to hit harder than single autoattacks? You're joking, right? Right?????

Arma88Mar 3, 201814 votes

Because adcs already auto attack for 1k damage a hit at 2 attacks per second. Literally no item that an adc builds needs any sort of buff

oh yea and it crits, ludens doesnt randomly do double damage. It has a tiny ap ratio. Like 15% or something like that.

Professor WardMar 3, 201810 votes

{quoted}

Because adcs already auto attack for 1k damage a hit at 2 attacks per second. Literally no item that an adc builds needs any sort of buff

oh yea and it crits, ludens doesnt randomly do double damage. It has a tiny ap ratio. Like 15% or something like that.

10%

Moonfall SaberMar 3, 20187 votes

its not a buff its a nerf. Lower the damage and make it scale with ad therefore they wont be hitting you like a truck with one item.

ChaddyFantomeMar 3, 201814 votes

Reminder that Duskblade proc only does ~340 damage on proc with full lethality, and falls off if you are visible long enough.

Statik BY ITSELF does 400 on crit to 4 people, and can be held indefinitely, and recharges just by attacking and moving.

Pika FoxMar 3, 20182 votes

And the two items are put into two different builds that do two completely different things, as well as give different stats.

I dont think a Zed is going to go "Ill grab shiv" anytime soon.

AazzlanoMar 4, 20183 votes

Are you sure because the nuclear build was a thing and was 1 shotting people with Duskblade+Shiv. Even on AP champions that have 0 AD scaling you would die instantly. So it definitely has been done.

Pika FoxMar 5, 20181 votes

Except no it hasnt. Thats a terrible ass build. Unless youre building 3 crit items, shiv falls off hard. It also gives no AD, so its completely useless for a caster like zed.

AazzlanoMar 6, 20182 votes

Pretty sure I climbed 3-4 divisions in like 1.5 weeks using this build on pre-rework Eve. All I needed was Duskblade and Shiv to 1 shot people from stealth. People were using this on Ekko and Akali also, and other champs that wouldn't ever build shit like this, because its frontloaded burst is insane.

Pika FoxMar 6, 20181 votes

You would fall off in 5 minutes because the build is just bad. You spent 2600g on stats youll never use or get anything out of. Youd get more burst on a proper assassin item that actually buffs your damage, as well as more consistent damage.

Climbing from bronze 5 to bronze 2 can be done with most any build. Doesnt mean the build is good.

AazzlanoMar 6, 20182 votes

Except it was to Diamond?? I didn't believe it either until I tried it and it was the most broken shit ever lmao.

https://i.imgur.com/vNrAMP5.jpg Pretty much every game went like this.

https://i.imgur.com/EKumpTC.png Only other screenshot I could find but I remember this is when I first tried the build, I laughed at how broken it was and sent a pic to my friend.

It was literally the most freelo I've ever experienced. It also gave me massive waveclear (not that that was a problem on Eve but it certainly helped) so splitpushing was even easier. And of course since it was AD build, my autoattacks were ridiculous especially with the attack speed from my E. The build also NEVER fell off and if anything hyperscaled into late game because AD+crit is balanced. Also since it was an AD build, it allowed me to build superior items and duel pretty much anyone since the sustained damage was crazy good as well. Also going AD allowed me to go Tabis which made me way tankier vs the things that normally would be dangerous if an assassination didn't kill them instantly (Talon, Zed, many ADCs) so it didn't matter and they would die an autoattack or two later.

Don't be ignorant.

Pika FoxMar 6, 20181 votes

Its objectively bad. There are 0 cases in which shiv is better for you in that build. Exactly 0. (well maybe not entirely true, depending on if trinity still gave crit at the time. Literally the only way that build wouldnt have fallen off like a rock)

Either way, at best it says you were high plat. The build is still objectively garbage. Youre paying 2600g for an item effect and nothing more. You wasted 2600g, and if the opponents couldnt capitalize on such a massive waste in gold, then either you were already massively ahead (in which case your build is irrelevant), or they were just bad in comparison.

AazzlanoMar 6, 20182 votes

Alright your theoretical knowledge of the game through playing ARAMs only is obviously superior to my actual experience here. It's not like I was massively ahead because the build was clearly broken and costed like nothing to make lmao.

I wish I had more screenshots of my match history lmao. It was game after game after game of the same scores like in the screenshot, didn't matter what my team or their team was. Not sure that I just suddenly got shit enemy teams every single game after I started using this build.

Pika FoxMar 6, 20181 votes

Its OBJECTIVELY bad. Objectively. There is no "theoretical" about it, its an objective fact.

Youre paying 2600g. Shiv is one of the least cost efficient items in the game for a completed item. Its power is largely in its active.

For that, youre getting a bit of movespeed, minor crit chance, attack speed, and an active.

As eve, youre utilizing... the movespeed and active. You wasted gold on the crit and AS, and also the active which scales with crit chance.

Not to mention you still need to build the item, which is all wasted stats for you until you get 2600g to drop on the finished item for the burst. Its objectively bad.

AazzlanoMar 6, 20182 votes

You realize that Eve's E gave 130% attack speed at max rank? Do you think that is for show? LMAO attack speed was INCREDIBLE on her, especially when you had AD from Duskblade etc. you are REALLY clueless dude.

Pika FoxMar 6, 20181 votes

Her having 130% AS makes shiv even worse, as youre overstacking AS. Not to mention youre a melee champion, you dont want to be meleeing for long without defensive items.

AazzlanoMar 6, 20182 votes

Why do you think you know my champion better than I do, considering you probably never played her lol?

Pika FoxMar 6, 20181 votes

Because you think shiv is a good item for the passive alone and in a build that doesnt stack crit for it? I dont even need to know anything about eve to know basic gameplay mechanics, how crit works, how shiv works, basic builds and optimization etc.

AazzlanoMar 7, 20182 votes

https://i.imgur.com/LP41Bgd.jpg https://i.imgur.com/c5ENq9X.jpg From seasons past. But that's ok, because a random unranked player knows more than me LUL.

ChaddyFantomeMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YWZp8FAP,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-03-03T23:39:20.542+0000)

And the two items are put into two different builds that do two completely different things, as well as give different stats.

I dont think a Zed is going to go "Ill grab shiv" anytime soon.

I do it all the time on Talon. Zed's Ulti gets amped by all his damage so i don't see why he wouldn't.

Pika FoxMar 18, 20181 votes

Because you literally wasted 2600g. You wont get crit, you wont use the AS. You paid 2600g for... what? Movespeed? The stats leading up to it are worthless for you, and even if you happen to have 2600g on back, it becomes a lead plate to your build after 5 mins.

ChaddyFantomeMar 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YWZp8FAP,comment-id=0004000000010000,timestamp=2018-03-18T21:23:55.585+0000)

Because you literally wasted 2600g.

How is it a waste when its giving me damage?

You wont get crit,

You dont even have to for it to be worth it Any crits you get on your rotation is like a bonus at that point.

you wont use the AS.

Sure you will. Not only will it let you nore quickly and constently het your passive auto proc off, the AS potentially allow you to get multiple autos of , some of which may crit, at which point its just free gravy on your rotation.

You paid 2600g for... what? Movespeed?

Oh, thanks for reminding me. That ALSO helps since assuming you are going Celerity, you are getting may more bang for your buck on top of free AD.

Another point i feel that goes underapreciated is the amount of wave clear it offers. Its actually kinda stupid how well it clears waves.

The stats leading up to it are worthless for you, and even if you happen to have 2600g on back, it becomes a lead plate to your build after 5 mins.

I dont think ive seen more ignorance on this forum.

You wanna know what was the top buld on Talon back in the day b4 his rework?

item 3031 item 3142

Why? Because the crits were just gravy on his rotation. The base AD on the items was already plenty. Crits just resulted in you deleting things for free sooner on occassion.

Pika FoxMar 22, 20181 votes

...... You really dont get the concept of wasted stats, do you?

No, you wont use the AS on an assassin. Your job is to assassinate, not stand there in melee range for 6 seconds autoing someone to death.

Anything less than 70% crit is wasted gold. If youre not getting minimum 3 crit items, youre wasting your investments.

Literally the only thing youre getting is movespeed of any value. Youre trying to spin the other subpar stats as beneficial, when in reality a dirk costs less and does more for you. And its not even a full item yet.

Hell, it doesnt even give any AD to back up the crit. At least the IE example you gave GAVE ACTUAL DAMAGE. Back then it wasnt because "it gave crit", it was "no other AD item (other than maybe BT at the time, idr) gave that much AD"

ChaddyFantomeMar 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YWZp8FAP,comment-id=000400000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-22T06:56:16.867+0000)

...... You really dont get the concept of wasted stats, do you?

Ofc i do but apparantly you don.t

No, you wont use the AS on an assassin.

Sure you would. You are arguing like a mindless drone, devoid of any real argument and instead arguing on some predisposed principles in your head as opposed to practicality.

Everyone was running Summon Aery earlier this year, regardless of having heal/shield for allies. Why? because it was effective. If something works, it works. preaching stuff about "what an assassin is supposed to do" vs "what an item is suppposed to be for" is irrelevant if the item is effective.

Your job is to assassinate, not stand there in melee range for 6 seconds autoing someone to death.

.except you wont be doing so for 6 seconds. Hell, not even ADCs do so for 6 seconds..

Think a little.

Anything less than 70% crit is wasted gold.

No lol. not even close. Crit is free damage at random when it happens. The proc damage by itself is already potent stuff. 30% crit means that 1 out of 3 autos will literally count as 2 autos for free at random for no reason, and you are doing so to proc your Duskblade and your passive as zed regardless.

If you're not getting minimum 3 crit items, you're wasting your investments.

this is a myth you have created in your head.

Literally the only thing youre getting is movespeed of any value. Youre trying to spin the other subpar stats as beneficial, when in reality a dirk costs less and does more for you. And its not even a full item yet.

Hell, it doesn't even give any AD to back up the crit. At least the IE example you gave GAVE ACTUAL DAMAGE. Back then it wasnt because "it gave crit", it was "no other AD item (other than maybe BT at the time, idr) gave that much AD"

I don't know why you've convinced yourself that damage is the issue here. Assassins aren't lacking in damage currently or even before the duskblade changes. The issue is they didn't and couldn't kill things before those things killed them. Sttatik shivs gal isn't to give you more AD. You don't even need more AD. what you need is more frontloaded damage and that is what statik gives you. In situations where you dont delete things immediately, it makes your Ult stronger for free, both via proc, free crit bonuses or even just an extra auto or 2 on your rotation if the situation calls or allows.

Pika FoxMar 25, 20181 votes

Everyone was running aery over meteor because if you dont have CC, meteor can miss, giving aery more consistent damage. Shiv is NOT a good option on an assassin. Aery being used does not change this reality, nor would it ever. A bonus 80 damage on an attack is not worth 2600g. 80 damage in your all in. Most assassins get more out of a single BFS. Hell, a dirk does more.

Yes, an ADC takes multiple seconds to kill their target. And if im a tank, im living for well over 10 seconds, sometimes up to 20 depending, against an ADC until the very late games. Even then, im still not dying sub 6s just to the ADC alone. The whole "adc is the new assassin" meme is just that; a fictional meme. If you dive 1v5 and die in 3 seconds, its not the ADC that killed you, its the whole team. Hell, most supports outdamage the ADCs until 2.5 items deep.

Yes, sub 70% crit is wasted gold. Its not "free damage". Thats not how DPS is calculated. Its a stat you paid for, and it has a suspected DPS increase. If you arent going 70% crit, your gold is wasted. If you go 100% crit, your gold is wasted. If youre going crit, you want 70-80% crit to maintain gold efficiency. ITS NOT FREE DAMAGE.

Shivs "frontloaded damage" of that free 80-160 damage before resists for 2600 gold. A BFS adds more to your rotation for less, so please, stop acting like it will ever be a good option on a melee assassin. It wont. It physically cannot be.

PB4UAMEMar 4, 20187 votes

Actually, it hits 5 targets, for that sweet 1 rightclick from 550+ range, resourceless and unmissble, plus 2,000 magic damage to the enemy team once to three times each teamfight. :D

Pika FoxMar 5, 20181 votes

Not really all that great.

its magic damage. ADs dont build mpen.
Its not likely to hit 5 champs unless theyre all grouped together, which isnt likely.

People really overblow the power of shiv for no reason. That extra 70 damage crit to a tank. Oh no. Whatever shall they do?

Z3SleeperMar 5, 20182 votes

It's magic damage. People tend to build Armor vs ADCs & people have lower base MR than base Armor.
The chain range is ~350 units. While it's unlikely to hit all champs due to minions, it's highly likely when minions aren't around.

Pika FoxMar 5, 20181 votes

And ADs tend to build ARpen not Mpen, and you dont get static shiv until around when the laning phase starts coming to an end, if not a bit after. Its not nearly as good as youd want it to be.

Its not likely, youll rarely get it to proc on more than 3, and thats if youre likely. You dont want to group super close because AoE is a thing, unless your team has defensive AoEs as well. And anyone that does group is usually tanky with initiation and CC, so it wont be procing for much damage.

Shiv on its own doesnt do good damage. Shivs damage is only really ever good with IE + another crit item.

Z3SleeperMar 5, 20182 votes

ADCs tend to build armor pen after 2 or 3 items. People tend to build a ton more armor than magic resist, especially when the user's team isn't magic damage heavy.

Plus Last Whisper items are only 35% bonus armor pen. This means that a physical damage Shyv vs a high armor target WITH Last Whisper would still do less than the current magic damage one if the target has no MR items or 2 Armor items and 1 MR item.

Not exactly true since tanks and some other champions gain MR per level, but true for everyone else.

ChaddyFantomeMar 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YWZp8FAP,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2018-03-05T03:41:24.822+0000)

its magic damage. ADs dont build mpen.

Sudden impact gives you MPen anyway tho.

HópeMar 3, 20187 votes

Shiv needs a nerf 100% But ocomparing the two is dumb because Ludens itself gives you scaling on your abilities too, a Xerath Q + ludens makes the damage feel excessive mid to late game from a distance you cant compare.

Generally Ludens is an item that compliments damage, Ziggs Q + Ludens will make you recall. AP champs sort of do damage from a better distance than marksmen do.

Sailor MintMar 3, 20186 votes

Shiv scales with movement speed, attack speed and crit.
Luden's Echo scales with movement speed, AP and CDR.

5000000000000000Mar 4, 20184 votes

I kinda resent that they removed MS from Luden's, but it also makes sense given that it's meant to be a rush item now

BârdMar 4, 20184 votes

Those two items can't just be thrown up side by side because they have a similar passive.

item 3087 is a supplemental item. You build it to make your rush item (Infinity Edge or Essence Reaver) more effective, but on its own it doesn't do much. It's cheaper because you need an item that costs 3400 gold to make this thing worth buying.

item 3285 is a rush item. This item is good on its own, and it's more expensive because of that.

IfnethMar 4, 20181 votes

Yep, and from personal experience, this thing is downright scary on Taliyah. She gets 10% movement speed and 50% Q refund on worked ground. When contesting my lane during the mid-game, I can toss a rock, run around a little, toss another rock, and pump out 200+ damage from just the passive.

When chasing at any point, this thing just keeps going off, too. I’ve had 3 procs in some chases.

Malix FarwinMar 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Those two items can't just be thrown up side by side because they have a similar passive.

is a supplemental item. You build it to make your rush item (Infinity Edge or Essence Reaver) more effective, but on its own it doesn't do much. It's cheaper because you need an item that costs 3400 gold to make this thing worth buying.

is a rush item. This item is good on its own, and it's more expensive because of that.

Actually compared to the other AP i find Luden to be quite weak. item 3003 gives more AP(even before it upgrades) with an active shield and item 3030 gives an active cone slow. The other 2 options are also both cheap and i do not feel the passive makes up for it. I mean it nearly matches item 3089 price but the Deathcap gives you 30 more base AP and a way better passive(40% bonus AP). Imo i do not really see a reason to build item 3285 anymore.

BârdMar 5, 20181 votes

item 3003 takes ages to stack into item 3040 , and until then it's not necessarily worth completing. It doesn't give more AP than either of the other two until you've stacked it up a bit, so you'd have to get your item 3070 first back to have that happen in a reasonable timeframe, forgoing the early power from item 3802 .

item 3030 is a hextech item, so buying it locks you out of item 3146 item 3152 .

item 3285 has advantages over the other two.

It's immediate power, unlike Seraphs.
It doesn't restrict your buildpath, unlike GLP.
It gives more stats than GLP.
Since you can proc ludens multiple times per fight, its passive will give you more overall damage than GLP's active.
Ludens passive reaches as far as your champion can. On somebody like Xerath or Ziggs, that means it reaches further than GLP.
Ludens gives better waveclear, since GLP bolts stop after the first target now.

It's not blatantly better or worse, it's just a judgement call based on your champion and the way the game is looking to go.

Malix FarwinMar 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

takes ages to stack into , and until then it's not necessarily worth completing. It doesn't give more AP than either of the other two until you've stacked it up a bit, so you'd have to get your first back to have that happen in a reasonable timeframe, forgoing the early power from .

is a hextech item, so buying it locks you out of .

has advantages over the other two.

It's immediate power, unlike Seraphs.

It doesn't restrict your buildpath, unlike GLP.

It gives more stats than GLP.

Since you can proc ludens multiple times per fight, its passive will give you more overall damage than GLP's active.

Ludens passive reaches as far as your champion can. On somebody like Xerath or Ziggs, that means it reaches further than GLP.

Ludens gives better waveclear, since GLP bolts stop after the first target now.

It's not blatantly better or worse, it's just a judgement call based on your champion and the way the game is looking to go.

Addressing the first point. it gives you slightly less if you have 0 bonus built up(by slightly 0) however in most cases even if you do not rush tear you will have more.

Second point you mentioned i should clearify, i meant for mages, and nearly all mages do not build the other hextech weapons anyways, its the assassins that do( Katarina Akali Fizz for example). Even if you wanted to build those other hextech items on mage then you could build an item 3003 instead of item 3285 .

The big problem with Luden comparatively is that it gives less AP, scales less, and costs more gold. The Passive is nice but would rather have more of my damage loaded into my abilities where i have more control of them and scale better.

As far as Luden's giving better wave clear, it really doesnt. While not only is archangel staff giving you more AP, it is also giving you more mana and a "refunds 25% of the mana spent".

Archangel staff outclasses it in every category, more ap at the start(even if you do not rush tear), scales better, refunds some mana costs, active shield.

Why again would a take a ludens with garbage 100(.1) ratio and you have to charge it over an item that is not only as relevant as it but is slightly cheaper, does more, and scales better into late game.