Why are we going back to the S2 "Supports job is to ward" thing?

Barkley··10 votes·708 views

Other than spending exorbitant amounts of cash on control wards, you've given non-support players virtually zero options for vision.

You can't buy the support items anymore because they've been tuned to punish CSing.

You cant buy sight stone anymore.

You took away trackers knife.

The only things that are left are yellow trinkets and control wards. That's all we get.

And in a game that's snowbally as hell and decided in the first 15 minutes, nobody can spare 300ish gold per game on control wards, because they risk falling behind - which in the current meta means you lose. Nobody's gonna reach into their pockets and shell out money for multiple control wards in a game, because it delays their item timings and if their opposition isn't doing the same, they just lost.

And forget switching to any other trinket now. That's a thing of the past. If you swap out for a sweeper, your team has even LESS vision. What's the point of sweeping out the enemy's vision if you can't put down your own to replace it? If that's the intended mentality, why not just remove wards all together? If we're trying to make the map dark for everyone - why do we need wards?

So yeah, you're absolutely stuck with the warding totem now. No need to use sweeper. (unless you're support). I suppose you could change out for scryers orb if you wanted to, but why grab the one, visible ward when you can have 2 invisible ones that last longer? I guess maybe if you're super behind and don't wanna be face checking - but you wouldn't be face checking if you could buy goddamn wards in the first place.

Wasn't there a time back in like season 2 or season 3 where riot was explicitly trying to get AWAY from the whole "Ward Bot" support mentality? Wasn't there a time when the mentality was to make vision more available to everyone so supports could be more effective in doing something besides just warding all game long?

yet here we are.... back where we started, where supports are basically solely responsible for warding - because they're the only ones with access to them.

All because LCS junglers were buying trackers knife too much and abusing support items in ways they shouldn't.

God forbid we just balance LCS and casual play separately. Nope. That would make too much goddamn sense.

35 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votes

There have been a couple of times where I couldn’t even complete my quest until 15 mins in a lost lane but you can’t really interact with your opponents as much when you’re behind, like seriously? 15 minutes..

The new items are absolute joke and makes vision one sided so heavily to the winning team.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Can't get gold or finish quests because you can't interact with opponents?

Here is your answer: item 3302 item 3301

The only thing that doesn't work in that situation is item 3303

Obviously you are always using item 3303.... every game... over and over again....

...doing the exact same fucking thing over and over again, expecting shit to change...

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

Coin is trash and I’m not gonna use a relic shield on range supports.

I’m also not gonna use coin on passive laners when the sustain offered by mana hunger champion is garbage, it’s better suited if I wanted to play Soraka instead.

Even when i use relic shield there have been same instances where you can’t even get the quest completed by 15 minutes because of the same scenario of a non interactive lane or you’re forced to starve yourself on the make for the sake of survival and wait for lanes to push.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Coin is trash? But you just said that you have issues because you can't interact like you want. Honestly what do you expect? Why are you here complaining about support items when you are not using your options efficiently? I would say that your choice is even more trash if you can't use it at all.

Do you want coin to be the best item in all situations? I think we already had that. Right now it's actually a decent balance and coin might get a bit of flat movement speed soon. You can't expect too much reward for doing nothing in lane.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

Coins requires you to pick them up which is difficult depending on lane matchup and because I’m too lazy to explain lane mechanics to a silver level player. You can easily be denied coins depending on how the lane is going which is why the sustain is beyond garbage and the mana refund is low even Janna players these days opt for Spelltheifs.

I never said coin should be the grand daddy of all choices, as a matter of fact they can leave it in the trash because that item doesn’t even promote the types of play style it’s suppose to, I never asked for coin buffs so stop stuffing words down my mouth.

Leaf on Bush2 votes

Picking up coins is "difficult", so you would rather take item 3303 in match ups where you're not comfortable and proceed to either feed or just lose before you can finish your quest.

I am not your coach, if you wanna keep doing the same shit without thinking about it I really don't care, but keep it out of balance discussions.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

It’s not about difficulty it’s about survivability, lane doesn’t even last long enough for the sustain the trash item gives.

I never asked for your coaching as a matter of fact I don’t need it because I already explained that even with relic shield you can take up to 15 minutes on given occasions, not very game.

You clearly don’t understand about lane interaction in matchups because your a Soraka one trick that just needs to press W and stand back.

You don’t even need to interact with opponents after they kill you twice in lane anymore because they can easily snowball the lane out of control.

Coin isn’t worth waiting the long run for simply because you get denied so many minions off slower wave control and you can’t even walk up because of the lack of vision that is given in the early game now.

I’d rather take my odds landing an auto for gold on my enemies than being denied almost an entire wave for coins than has useless sustain, literally no one builds coin now unless it’s buffer through the roof, that’s why no one bought the reworked coin until it was buffer insanely.

I’m not saying all games take up to 15 minutes to get vision but there are occasionally those that do regardless of you’re running Relic of Spellthiefs.

Garbage sustain and too much denial, so feel free to keep your coaching to yourself.

So feel free to keep your coaching to yourself never asked, I also never asked for your opinion on items. I only gave my opinion on the horrendous vision changes.

You also made the assumption that’s there’s a lack of gold income when conspiring items.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

Yea sure, maybe you were just jumping on the QQ train with your first comment even though you have no reason to.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER1 votes

I have whatever reasons to do whatever I want.

wildfox993 votes

Why are we going back to the S2 "Supports job is to ward" thing?


You cant buy sight stone anymore.

[sg-lulu]

every single patch have a support item rework or a new support item,mage update but don't forget to make a support AP item item 3905 (yea sure it can be picked by mid laners,ofc 60 AP no defensive stats is so worth it,maybe only TwistedFate could use it) and now new patch new support item "Shurelya's Reverie"

i'm not saying that i like actual supports state,it's so boring playing as ADC babysitter,but at least you have some impact on the game (if your ADC stay alive he can melt enemy team with his rightclick),still better than playing mid/top and having to depush your lane for half game untill you can somehow roam bot

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Sightstone is still in the game, what the hell are you talking about? It's not a full blown vision/utility item, it upgrades out of your T1/T2 gold gen items. And purchasing control wards is meant for the entire team, not just a support dropping 12k gold into vision denial wards. If your team isn't willing to help you out, then we clearly have a problem that you alone can't solve.

Why should a support literally be tasked to be a backpack of vision tools because your teammates cannot be arsed to contribute because of "muh damagez" complex?

Scryer's Orb is being used by Marksmen usually to scout locations before they decide to stay in it for a while and farm something or check out objectives on long ranges. Yes, Totem is acting like a second Sightstone but Scryer's Orb is definitely a better scouting tool with an indefinite time limit.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YVkE8n1x,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-02-27T16:00:11.784+0000)

Sightstone is still in the game, what the hell are you talking about?

Sightstone is NOT in the game.

Idk what the hell you are playing but it isn't league anymore.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Good to know you completely ignored the part where i explained that T1/T2 gold gen items supports get, transform into a Sightstone-like active. Riot removing Sightstone eliminated the need to dump 800 gold for a full blown utility/vision item that limited a lot of supports that weren't synergizing with starting HP purchase.

This opened a path to actual mages being more viable as bot laners because they have more gold to spend on AP. I guess you haven't been playing League in quite a while when this change was made.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YVkE8n1x,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-02-27T23:15:57.012+0000)

Good to know you completely ignored the part where i explained...

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sightstone

^This is sightstone.

What you are talking about isn't Sightstone.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Sightstone is exactly what i'm talking about - an item's active to drop wards. Now it's incorporated into actual gold gen items and it saves you gold AND an item slot for something else. This is a QoL change for supports all around.

Tracker's Knife had the exact same active, but as a specific jungler's item with an Enchantment of your choice.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YVkE8n1x,comment-id=00090000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-28T17:48:17.265+0000)

Sightstone is exactly what i'm talking about - an item's active to drop wards. Now it's incorporated into actual gold gen items and it saves you gold AND an item slot for something else. This is a QoL change for supports all around.

Tracker's Knife had the exact same active, but as a specific jungler's item with an Enchantment of your choice.

Yeah definitely builds into an item that gives alot of hp. Also faster to get wards now. /sarcasm

Just hush. Arguing with a support main here.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

What a coincidence. I'm also a support main - Morgana, as a matter of fact.

And i've waited for so long to get some changes focused on having not to rush a Sightstone, which in Morgana's hands is quite useless when it's just HP. Yea, you'd be less squishy but Morgana values AP more than HP due to her Q and E. Zhonya's/Stopwatch is pretty much mandatory if you want to get your ult off and ofc, reduced CD of Zhonya's active.

Supports aren't champions only you like to play. Supports are champions that can go in a duo lane and help a Marksman, in one way or another. Now Brand, Zyra, Karma and even Lux can perform better than what they used to have (and in most cases, these champs would just skip a Sightstone altogether).

No one is being hurt with these changes and i'd like you to stop talking about some imaginary problem you seem to have. There are no problems with Sightstone-active items, everyone gets to have their cake and eat it too, with 800 more gold in their pockets.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YVkE8n1x,comment-id=0009000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-28T23:08:04.415+0000) No one is being hurt with these changes

Again, sightstone doesn't exist. Otherwise, link it now.

Secondly, prove that it doesn't take at least 10 mins for your item to finish to multiple ward drops.

Third, tell me "No one is being hurt with these changes" when the support community was whining about it for a while with not only sightstone being removed, but also the actives that used to exist for these items.

You are a small minority. Assuming you are not trolling. You are not everyone. Tank supports got hit hard. I have a hard time believing you are a support main if you don't even know that.

I consider you a troll though. You can't be that hard in denial about the item sightstone.

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Again, sightstone doesn't exist. Otherwise, link it now.

An item active that drops wards on charges is a Sightstone. I don't care what you consider to be a Sightstone.

It's quite hard want to discuss something with a person who decided that his own voice is the only voice he needs to be hearing. This kind of an attitude you're giving me isn't helping you in the slightest, even more so that i actually have given you a fair context to how squishier supports (mage supports) are in a better spot due to them not having to spend 800 starting gold on nothing but utility.

Tanks don't give a damn either, they only lost FotM shield. And given how shielding is now prevalent in the game, Riot did not want to give it back due to Guardian, Overheal, Locket and the likes. Because when you stack shields from all these sources, you get a Marksman with one and a half bars of HP that you can't cut through.

You're only talking about how you saw things when you've last seen them because again, Braum and Thresh didn't lose anything - being the tank supports they are. Tank supports didn't get hurt with these changes.

Secondly, prove that it doesn't take at least 10 mins for your item to finish to multiple ward drops.

I've taken a look at your op.gg and it seems like half of the time you presumably play a support, you're not even buying a Remnant item. Then i'm going to have to tell you that i've played games where my supports complete the Item quest in 7+ minutes. You're just not playing like you're supposed to be playing and you have a lot to learn.

I consider you a troll though. You can't be that hard in denial about the item sightstone.

Given your rank, i find that statement says more about you than me. "Hurr durr muh opinion and everyone who says otherwise is a troll" isn't an argument.

You are a small minority. Assuming you are not trolling. You are not everyone.

Boards are a small "vocal" minority. You are a part of the boards, whether you like it or not. Don't pretend like your opinions have some sort of invisible backing behind them because i'm not seeing anyone coming to your "rescue". We can discuss individual opinions without having to resort "my dick is bigger than yours" statements.

rtbf2216514121 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YVkE8n1x,comment-id=000900000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-01T15:12:53.313+0000)

I've taken a look at your op.gg and it seems like half of the time you presumably play a support, you're not even buying a Remnant item.

If you were a support, you would know you just need the second gold income item to get the wards.

Also my item takes 6 mins at least. At most 10-18 if I have a bad adc. So, no.

/end

ggigotfed1 votes

Because you all have free wards fucking use them.

Barkley3 votes

I get one ward every minute and a half that lasts 2 minutes. That means if I use my trinket every time its off cooldown, I get to have 2 wards on the map at any given time if I want to keep consistent, uninterrupted vision.

I'm not always standing exactly where I wanted to put a ward the moment my trinket comes off cooldown. Which means there will be lapses in vision.

Also, there are many occasions where placing multiple wards at once is the best option - which means there will be plenty of times where the action of the game moves to a different location - and I have no wards to place.

Also, I don't care what elo you play at - people don't always remember to ward. Especially since, for the first 10 or so minutes of the game, everyone is kinda sorta confined to a general area around their own lane. So there's plenty of lapses in vision during that time simply because people can't move the way they want to due to wanting to stay close to CS - and rightly so.

And its not as if placing vision in a certain area guarantees productivity in that area. If you're planning on warding around dragon, and you burn 2-3 wards from your team trying to set it up - only to find that you're outnumbered, or one of your laners dies, or any other infinite possibilities - your vision is now useless. You can't capitalize on it.

What about counter jungling? Invades? Jungling is a guessing game. An informed guessing game, but a guessing game nonetheless. If I burn both of my wards early in the game expecting an invade, or preparing for my own - and I get nothing from it - I now have no vision to place anywhere else for 90 seconds (120 early in the game). This feels a whole lot like gambling, to me. Mostly because that's exactly what it is.

And lets not forget about our friends, the supports - who can not only still place vision DRASTICALLY more liberally than I can as any other positional player - but they can also access the sweeper trinket ON TOP OF having much, much more access to vision. So if I - as a jungler - am being bullied by the enemy jungler/mid laner/support, I have virtually no options. I can either a.) buy a sweeper and try to sweep out the vision - which is a fruitless battle because I can't replace it with my own vision, and the support/laners are just going to replace it anyway OR I can NOT buy a sweeper and try to keep up with my measly 2 wards, and put myself EVEN FURTHER behind by buying a ton of control wards. Its a lose-lose.

So "You have wards, use them" is a nice little catch phrase, but unfortunately in practice - it doesn't work that way.

ggigotfed2 votes

The cd on the trinket isn't a problem. And just because it's off cd doesn't mean "use it RIGHT now" You can hold 2 of them it's fine calm down.

If people aren't using their trinkets frequently, they're retarded. It's not something that's hard to notice.

In normals idc what you do with the trinket since that's just where you go to troll and feed.

In ranked, if I see you holding two fucking wards for 10 minutes I'm reporting you ass on principle.

As for your support. Don't try to burden your support to get you global vision all game, they get 4 wards per back. And they run the scanner to get rid of vision and maybe they'll frequently buy pink wards. The support should definitely ward but don't try to burden the support to be ALL the vision score. You have free wards. Use them. It works in practice if you aren't fucking stupid.

Barkley4 votes

Well I guess you and everyone you play with are stupid then, because in virtually every game in your match history you place about 7-11 wards in games that last average about 30-35 minutes.

Get the fuck outta here with your bullshit holier than thou attitude.

You ward less than most people on your team in most games.

ggigotfed1 votes

I don't ward because I'm a piece of shit. In normals at least. In ranked I'll ward when it's needed and by that. When I fucking deem it worthy to risk my life warding. I'm not sure what happens in silver since if I was ever there I'd fucking shoot myself in the head. But focus on trying to understand the basics of the game first. Okay cutie? Lovely? Honey? Sweeite? Okay.

ninjaroxas2 votes

you are only gold 5 calm your tits, you aren't faker.

ggigotfed1 votes

Because my wards will carry me?

Pokemonred2001 votes

Tracker's Knife let us jungle players get an Oracle's Lens without sacrificing wards, too. But I guess we have to give that up too.

Done251 votes

If you need more wards so badly you're free to take the active item CDR rune and/or the zombie ward rune. That alone should greatly increase how useful your trinket is.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

You can't buy the support items anymore because they've been tuned to punish CSing.

Quality shit post. If I see you start with dorans I report you for trolling. You are not supposed to get much income from CS, that's why supports get their income items to begin with. What is this twisted logic? You are just straight dishonest in your attempt to argue in favour of supports, but you are actually making support players look really bad here. So just for the record, not all support players are like that.

Azadethe1 votes

Tbh, just because the support items are throttled does NOT mean you can't use them. I religiously still use item 3092 on champs like Morgana , because quite frankly, it's a strong overall item, and once I have T3, I can play any role and have wards, because T3 doesn't punish. It's a little gold, but it's 35g,extra damage, and fast recharge on T3.

I still use item 3069 on Top lanes where direct farming is tough, because quite frankly, most tops have high HP regen base, so the Regen is high, it offers laning staying power, HP, and some move speed. So far just today I played Ornn top twice, and once was vs Fiora and once was vs Darius ; Both technically counter Ornn. Instead of facing them front on, my first items were item 3069 and item 3107 . Regen lane is powerful on tanks like this, so I just passive farmed until i saw a place where I could gank mid, or where I had a good jungler who could come top and guarantee a kill on these guys. Both games I ended 8 KDA.

Don't think of them as just support items. Think of them as counterplay alternatives for all roles other than perhaps ADC, especially if you are a tank or a mage. They have a downside early game, but pound for pound the existing attributes even when you are NOT gaining charges on these items, is generally worth the cost over the duration of a game (even in 8.6 when they become even more crap)

Somtimes I'd rather have item 3092 than spend the game buying 9-10 Control wards anywho. Controls are more likely to be taken down within 2 minutes of placement, so having 4 wards in bay on a damage item is neat (this item also allows laners to Zombie ward prolifically.

(I generally complete Support quest items around 7:14 - 8:24. When I use them on a lane, it's about 11:24-13:00. Still worth imo vs late game ward starvation when chasing too many objectives)

Ifneth1 votes

Supports get just as many wards as before, only later. They can’t buy an early sightstone to stonewall the enemy jungler with endless vision during laning phase. In fact, more supports have wards because they have to buy ward items and not active items.

Here’s why this is a good thing. Before, the duo lane had enough totems to constantly ward a single path of approach, another path from the ADC’s control ward, and a third path from the support’s control ward. On top of this, the support could also buy a Sightstone to ward any path the jungler might take to get around the usual wards should the duo lane push. The same went for the jungler and top laner due to Tracker’s Knife. The jungle became an irrelevant position to cram a tank into for the late-game teamfights that became the norm because all those wards could keep everyone safe until then.

With this early vision gone, there are now meaningful choices to make until the support finishes their item. Push up without knowing where the jungler is, and you will need to spend extra wards to stay safe, meaning that you’ll need to let the lane push until they regenerate. This has led to shenanigans top-lane, but we can fiddle with the jungle to fix that. I’m glad they removed the excess vision. This makes the game more interesting and deep.

Teridax681 votes

I think the state of control wards right now is a pretty strong argument for why reintroducing purchaseable sight wards wouldn't really benefit the game for most players: even in a game where vision itemization is controlled super-hard, the moment an itemized vision source is made realistically available to the support, it falls upon them to take on as much of the vision burden for their team as possible. This is never really fun for anyone involved, and even when vision is as cheap as it is now, there are still far too many other players on the team who refuse or forget to participate.

I feel we're also coming down to the final stages of this process of reduction that has happened to vision over the years: because vision is a must-buy whenever it's made available in the shop, Riot has been either making vision as little of a burden as possible (e.g. via trinkets), or has removed it entirely. As such, there is nothing stopping this argument from applying to Control Wards, particularly since their only purpose right now, aside from niche use against a grand total of three champions in the game, is to just remove standard wards. Removing those could make the map less dark overall, though it would also diminish the vision game even further. This has been a problem at the pro level, because the darker the map gets, the more players play safe, because they're trained not to facecheck or give away free kills, and as a result pro games have often become more boring and prolonged.

What this means to me is that vision in League cannot continue to remain in its current shape: the problem with wards has always been that they're incredibly powerful, but don't innately feel powerful, especially not to players who are unaware of how important vision is. Moreover, the existence of invisible wards also creates a severe lack of clarity at lower levels of mastery, where players don't understand why the enemy could perfectly play around their movements while they were in the jungle or river. As a result, support players in particular are pushed to load up on utility that doesn't feel exciting to buy, which itself isn't conducive to learning. Because of this, I think it might be time to move away from itemized vision altogether, or at least current modes of vision, and look into ways of making vision a) clear and fun for everyone, and b) available to all, without forcing it as a burden onto one class. Having more vision-granting plants, for example, could potentially offer more diverse and visible sources of vision, and would treat it as a power-up to gain information around a certain area. Ideally, this should make vision more engaging and interactive, while also burdening supports less, and avoiding railroading them into specific purchases.

Kaìju1 votes

Supports should probably go back go being mostly ward machines and here's why. Lulu, Karma, Janna. Shield supports are so much better at their job than heal supports because GW is plentiful and counters healing but nothing counters shields. I've seen Zed with MortRem melt an ADC through Nami's heal, and it was good. Supports and ADCs in their current iteration must both be only 75% of a champion, because both together would equal 150% of a champion. But people want agency on both sides and so currently if you play an ADC with strong built in safety like Xayah or Tristana, both the carry and the support are 100% of a champion, which makes it really easy for them to be 200%, which just let's them steamroll a game.

An ADC should be bad without a support but equally a support should be bad without a carry, but picks like Brand or Zyra regularly deal some of the highest damage in the game, and Lulu and Janna 100% negate assassins while champions like Soraka or Nami have to give up a lot to sustain the team through high health or mana costs for returns that can be diminished by a buyable stat.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

That's not really how heals are balanced. Basically if you pick Soraka you just hope for the enemy team to not buy GW or to do it when you already won. You don't start the game with GW and many players underestimate how important it is against Soraka. You are allowed to experience 2 extremes that together make her win rate look pretty balanced. It's not really true to say that shields are just better, but they are allowed to perform consistently and I guess you could even argue that by picking a shield support you can influence matches more consistently.

The solution to that is actually to remove GW and balance all healing individually, which will probably never happen. GW is just a super lazy way to keep heals in control at the cost of match quality. Riot will continue this and probably do the same to shields in near future, it's funny though that they are hesitating because of the reasons I mentioned. The community will just cheer when heals and shield are both treated like this and Riot can save themselves a lot of work.

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