"We demand champion diversity"

Eedat·Aug 15, 2017·65 votes·4,208 views

"Unless they're AD"

"Mid with a 47% WR needs to be gutted."

"Mid with a 45% win rate needs to be gutted"

"They're way too strong mid and clutter out the viable diversity of all mages + "

84 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMERAug 15, 201727 votes

No idea why all these mid lane mains complain yet champions like Ekko, Fizz, Orianna, Syndra, Annie, Cho'Gath etc are still up there in terms of power.

The only thing I would agree with though is that there is a lack of options in their items compared to AD.

You also get Marksman being pushed out of bot lane and people complain, how do you think top laners felt when mages were being played in top?

DryninAug 15, 201753 votes

Yeah, no. We had a brief window where Ziggs was played bot, and a couple other mages were tried, but that barely lasted, and now Ziggs is the only one who occasionally goes there. Otherwise it's almost always be ADC's.

Name me one other role where a single class dominates the meta of the position on the map. I think that's the issue in general. Fine, we can have Marksmen be viable in mid lane, top lane, jungle, whatever. I'm okay with that, as long as it goes in reverse and we can see like a juggernaut carry bot, or more mages bot, that aren't there as supports, but that doesn't happen. ADC's have an entire role to themselves, AND they get to flex into other places on the map, and part of that is because of the insance diversity in their item options compared to APC's.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERAug 15, 201719 votes

Which is why I said that AP itemization lacks options, but people are thinking that AP is so weak to the point where their champions aren't viable or not bursting enough which isn't the case, AP can still single handily burst a squishy especially ones with large amounts of CC like Orianna, Lissandra, Ekko etc.

The issue with Marksman is that they're getting excessive amount of survivability with stuff like Warlords, Ardent, etc making them more tough to burst and a lot of people are confusing this with their own champions being weak. Also with situational items giving more power like Maw.

If AP had more choices they would be played more in bot lane, Ziggs worked fine as a siege champion whilst upholding decent damage, other stuff like on hit Twisted Fate has been played around with and still works well, even Cassio can be played well in bot lane due to her early ways of being able to bully people out of lane and her W works well against mobile ADCs. Juggernauts have been viable for awhile in bottom lane but no one does it often because who knows? Most people just follow a "meta" code but juggernauts also need enablers like Blitz, Leona more play making oriented supports to work.

DunkinNoobsAug 15, 201715 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no. We had a brief window where Ziggs was played bot, and a couple other mages were tried, but that barely lasted, and now Ziggs is the only one who occasionally goes there. Otherwise it's almost always be ADC's.

I'd legit rather have Ziggs Mordekaiser Yasuo Vladimir Karthus bot over either Ezreal Caitlyn right now, but you won't see it because people are babies who would rather play known garbage than try something different.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 15, 20177 votes

I hate to say it, but you're absolutely right. Ziggs and Morde were only played bot a ton because they were so insanely powerful at the time, compared to the actual marksmen that were there, and even then, it required an extra push from either certain community members or a certainly T. A huge problem with the League community, at every level, including pros, is that they refuse to change their playstyle. It's easier just to keep the general meta the same and shift it slightly when another formerly meta pick becomes popular again.

It's also because there is a somewhat limited pool of AD mages (GP, Varus, Lucian, Jhin, Jayce, Ez), only some of which are strong at any given time, so it does sometimes get hard to find reliable ranged physical damage if you're running an APC bot. It's not like anybody below pro play actually cares about team comp though.

AhristocatsAug 15, 20179 votes

i don't know

i'm currenly top13 morde world according to lolalytic and i only play morde adc currently having 71% win rate on 70 games in soloq if we take in account flex it's 73% win rate in 116 games

PoskeAug 15, 20171 votes

yeah but You have specific supports like blitz and thresh?

AhristocatsAug 16, 20171 votes

why does it matter every pick has its own synergy with some supports

PoskeAug 16, 20172 votes

not every pick is complete trash without those 2

Being a yasuo Adc player

I only mind being supported by 1, Morgana (But she is trash tier) 2. Leona - just a bad synergy 3. Thresh mainly because every single diamond thresh is garbage who cant even collect souls

I dont mind any other 20 supports while your morde works with champions with hook exlusively

AhristocatsAug 16, 20171 votes

except that adc morde can work with leona alistar and rakan too

PoskeAug 16, 20171 votes

well yasuo can work to a probably better extent with the 3 supports I mentioned then morde with those 3 you mentioned

Consistency is the key. Every blitzcrank player seems to have a blitz duo with them

I also dont see morde working with those

after their cc morde ll still lack around 50-100 range to reach em.

and rakan is extremly weak early game given how vulnerable mordekaiser is early on sounds risky

My Waifu VanillaAug 17, 20171 votes

Ziggs I don't think has really been nerfed since he was played bot often. The only "change" has been doran stacking being removed which hurt bot ziggs quite a bit since he needed 2+ to actually lane as long as a typical ADC. Honestly the only thing keeping "off" stuff out of bot lane is the fact that ADCs are necessary to actually take most objectives (sustained damage is pretty good for drag/baron) and ADCs like Draven/Trist burst pretty hard as well.

PoskeAug 15, 20172 votes

vladimir aint that good in botlane he needs solo experience Karthus is also not that great in botlane

Yasuo botlane works proven by me dozen of times even in challenger Same with ziggs done it bunch of times many did Mordekaiser sadly only works with blitz and like thresh

I think Taliyah would work in botlane (didnt play it yet though)

Cait winrate wise sucks as much as ezreal in botlane

3TWarriorAug 16, 20171 votes

karthus did better before for some random reason they nerfed his wall to only apply resistance debuffs if it lands directly on the opponent and the slow is reduced...

EedatAug 15, 20177 votes

Name me one other role where a single class dominates the meta of the position on the map.

Well I did. All the top tier mids are mages + Talon

DryninAug 15, 20173 votes

To clarify my comment, I'm asking in regards to the history of the meta. Sure, mages are top tier now, and are most commonly top tier in mid lane, but there have been plenty of times AD assassins and bruisers like Yasuo, Talon, GP were top tier mid laners as well for an extended period of time. And even now, mages are top tier, but Yasuo and GP can still compete against them.

In contrast to bot lane, where once the Support/ADC combo was discovered, that's pretty much all that ran down there. They tried to put Morde in there for carry, but that failed and they nerfed him. People tried Mages down there, but they nerfed those. None of those "Competing Meta's" lasted longer than a few months at most and quickly reverted.

Diversity isn't "The Top Tier needs to have multiple classes." Diversity is "Being able to play multiple classes in a role without completely faceplanting if you aren't leagues above the opponent in skill."

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

Except there are two classes bot lane, Caster Marksmen and Attack Marksmen. The meta is currently shifted towards Attack Marksmen, except Caster Marksmen are still powerful from CDR influx and stuff.

Same thing with mid and top lane, where mages and tanks dominate for the past two years respectively.

I don't understand how people don't understand this. Morde bot lane is like Teemo top, a unique pick. Caster ADCs are the mages of bot lane while Attack Marksmen are the assassins of bot lane in a sense. One is more viable than the other.

DrCyanideAug 16, 20172 votes

It's still one class - Marksman. They're not Tanks, not Fighters, not Assassins, not Mages, not Supports (duo support lane?). The fact is that class has been left mostly unchallenged for the "Bot" lane assignment for years.

You can sub divide any class into finer categories, but no other role in the game is as monopolized as Bot by Marksmen.

Top has Tanks, Fighters, and the occasional Marksman, Assassin, and Mage.

Mid has Mages, Assassins, and the occasional Support, Fighter, Tank, and Marksman.

Bot has Marksman, and the occasional Ziggs and Morde. Not even a class, not even multiple representations from a class, just those two champions.

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

That's like saying bruisers and tanks are the same.

DrCyanideAug 16, 20172 votes

League has 6 classes: Tanks, Fighters, Assassins, Mages, Marksmen, and Supports.

Top, Jungle, Mid, and Support see multiple of these 6 classes. Bot see only 1.

Those classes may need an update, and they don't perfectly describe how champions in them play, but those are the classes. Riot has tried to address this in various posts, offering various ways to classify champions within their Class (Vanguard vs Warren Tanks, Artillery vs Control vs Burst Mages, etc), but they do not have official sub categories for Marksmen. It's still one class, with no sub classes, and a monopoly on one position.

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

Ok, but if Marksmen was broken into "Caster" and "Attack" you wouldn't care then. Again, it's the same as Tanks and Fighters top lane. You only see them plus the niche anti-fighters, similar to Ziggs and Morde bot being anti-marksmen.

Seriously, if the class was broken into two then you wouldn't really be complaining.

DrCyanideAug 16, 20172 votes

Ok, but if Marksmen was broken into "Caster" and "Attack" you wouldn't care then.

EXACTLY! Because it's still one class!

Again, it's the same as Tanks and Fighters top lane.

No, because that's 2 separate classes, not one.

BushidoBladeAug 16, 20171 votes

Tanks are fighters..

DrCyanideAug 16, 20171 votes

https://thelifeofgamers.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/10414473_562674823853397_6415531132514086576_n.jpg

These are the class icons: Fighter, Mage, Marksman, Support, Assassin, Tank. Different icons because they're different classes.

OyddAWqJ5rAug 15, 20171 votes

Mordekaiser did someone say juggernaut carry bot? :O

DryninAug 15, 20171 votes

That was so oppressive they nerfed him into the ground, and while some people can find success in him, he didn't last as a viable pick longer than a few months.

OyddAWqJ5rAug 15, 20173 votes

He's 200% a viable pick right now. The bot lane Morde mains have over 60% win rates.

Emelie CauchemarAug 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, no. We had a brief window where Ziggs was played bot, and a couple other mages were tried, but that barely lasted, and now Ziggs is the only one who occasionally goes there. Otherwise it's almost always be ADC's.

Name me one other role where a single class dominates the meta of the position on the map. I think that's the issue in general. Fine, we can have Marksmen be viable in mid lane, top lane, jungle, whatever. I'm okay with that, as long as it goes in reverse and we can see like a juggernaut carry bot, or more mages bot, that aren't there as supports, but that doesn't happen. ADC's have an entire role to themselves, AND they get to flex into other places on the map, and part of that is because of the insance diversity in their item options compared to APC's.

You are aware there's a person that hits challenger as Morde going bot right.

AhristocatsAug 15, 20173 votes

there are more than one person that hit challenger as morde by going bot

BushidoBladeAug 16, 20171 votes

you're looking at it wrong. Range is what dominates match ups, not because they are marksmen or ADC. if you have gnar, kennen, or teemo top, these are not AD carries specifically. They are unique champions who excel at bullying bruisers who are primarily played in that lane. Their differences are many, but the similarity remains the same, they all have range as their strength.

You can say wow, ADC's can dominate in every position, but it's only for lack of innovation that melee carries are not played on bot lane (for example Yasuo, Master Yi, etc.). Yasuo has been played in bot lane as high as challenger level but it remains unreliable. It's a feast or famine principle, either it pops off or it feeds the enemy team, so pro teams go with the more reliable options.

DryninAug 17, 20171 votes

Actually, I think you just missed my point. I wasn't claiming that every member of the Marksman class has the flexibility to go anywhere. Azir for example, has been marketed always as a Mage/Marksman, and while people occasionally try him in bot lane, often times he's not suited for that, so he stays mid and occasionally top. No one here doubts that each champion has their specialties and unique properties that will let them thrive in other locations, despite what is typically associated with for their class. Hell, Lulu and Zilean both used to be strong meta mid laners, and while that's no longer as strong of a pick, people still pick them, a support champion, to be an APC for the team and succeed, much like your Yasuo and Yi analogy.

None of that is inherently bad. I actually really like the fact that the game has, if you look at every other position (Top/Mid/Jungle/Support) you can typically name several of the primary 6 classes (Tank/Fighter/Assassin/Mage/Marksman/Support) that had meta picks strong in that roll.

Except for bot position. Just Bot's Marksmen, and pretty much only marksmen, have been actively ALLOWED to thrive there. I can count on 1 hand the total number of champions (Specific champions, not just other classes) that were found to have success in the bot lane, and every instance of that was incredibly short lived as Riot nerfed the said offender specifically for their bot presence. Maybe the current Morde state with his success will prove to be a new thing they actually allow to survive, but I'm still feeling that's pretty new, and again, it's still ONE champion outside of the Marksman class allowed down there right now.

And while those all may have been very good decisions to prevent toxic balance, it's mostly showing a fundamental flaw in the game direction that there is this disconnect of matching diversity and options for this one place on the map.

LankPantsAug 15, 20178 votes

I have the same stance I've always had on ADCs. As long as they're compulsory bot they should never be allowed in other lanes. If we introduce legitimate options other than ADCs bot then I'd be more open to ADCs in other lanes but as long as ADCs are the only botlaners possible every ADC who's viable in another lane should be crippled and forced back into bot.

BobaFlautistAug 15, 20178 votes

Scumbag mage main here to elucidate you about the "problem" of Lucian, Ezreal, Corki, etc mid.

Typically mages have to fight one if two things mid:

Other mages that do more or less the same thing as they do and have no kill potential without slow, telegraphed skillshots. If theburst, cc, waveclear, poke, cooldowns, roam potential, sustain, mobility, or utility of other mages are deemed too strong, they get constant hate until they're nerfed (see Ahri, Orianna, Syndra, Ahri, Ziggs, Annie, Ahri, and Anivia).
Assassins. Assassins have high kill potential mid game, but lack waveclear and scaling. The general idea with them is that if you hide, farm, and don't feed to lich, you should eventually win. Also, if their winrate hits 50% or their playrate hits 5%, they too are complaining shout until they are nerfed.

The ADCs that are taken mid, however, have powerful poke and dueling (compared to mages) from level 1, relatively on-demand mobility to dodge essential skillshots, and as much or more scaling as mages. They're (as far as mages are concerned) assassins with kill potential from early game on that also outscale the mages. This is obviously false, as a mage will win most post-6 all-ins, but it forces mages to adapt their playstyle. And if there's one thing a mage main hates, it's adapting their playstyle.

LauchmelderAug 15, 20173 votes

{quoted} 2. Assassins. Assassins have high kill potential mid game, but lack waveclear and scaling.

That's supposed to be the case, but they threw that mentality overboard during the assassin update.

Giving LB Ryze's waveclear or giving waveclear to other assassins became the norm because they are "supposed to roam".

Teridax68Aug 16, 20178 votes

Bringing up win rates is not the most relevant thing to do when discussing champion diversity, which revolves around pick rates. Regarding the champions mentioned in the OP, specifically, using that same site reveals that both Corki and Lucian are picked more often than Talon in mid lane: Lucian's pick rate there is 7.9%, the sixth highest, Corki's is 6.14%, number 12 in mid lane pick rates, and Talon is in 20th place, at 4.84%. Sure, Talon's win rate may be significantly higher than Corki's or Lucian's, but he is nonetheless much less popular than either marksman in a lane that is typically a space for mages and assassins.

To some extent, I agree with the OP that we should not be preventing classes from being viable across multiple positions, whether it's mages going bot or marksmen going top, mid or jungle. However, the issue arises when there is no reciprocity to this: in the case of marksmen, for example, when they are allowed to take up spots elsewhere on the map and still be the only viable bot lane carry class, they just end up crowding out other classes, as the latter cannot migrate bot in the same way marksmen can now move to solo positions. Similarly, support players complain when mages take their place bot lane because they have nowhere else to go, so a meta where mages are comparably popular to supports in bot lane is a meta where supports may not even have a chance to appear in many matches.

If we are to have diversity and let already highly visible classes have even more options, we need to do the same for all other champions and make sure they can still go someplace even when their usual spot is taken. This means unlocking bot lane, allowing marksmen to have at least some non-marksman competition for their spot, and making supports viable and healthy in positions other than in a duo bot. If this seems unrealistic or undesirable to you, then you cannot claim to stand for greater champion diversity.

Pommel KnightAug 16, 20171 votes

Yea, but riot hates anyone going out of their role. Fizz Ekko Lulu Malzahar Just because their base lanes are so bad or aren't able to do what their class is supposed to.

Teridax68Aug 16, 20171 votes

I think the issue with those champions specifically isn't with the fact that they are, or were viable in other lanes, but that they do so in a manner that isn't entirely healthy. Brand and Malzahar were popular in bot lane because their raw base power was so strong that they could bully the enemy into inaction, and could then scale pretty decently with only a bit of AP. Lulu, similarly, became a problem in top lane because her kit fundamentally lacks counterplay in one-on-one situations, and her defensive options made her overbearing when coupled with her poke against melee champions. What these champions need is to be healthy in other lanes, in addition to being viable.

With supports, this is especially difficult because their natural gold income and itemization choices are completely different from any position other than duo bot: as a baseline, they're generally given enough power to be able to remain useful at all stages of the game in spite of pretty weak personal stats through items, which often means they have above-average base power. In addition, their kits are often build specifically with an ally in mind, which makes operating solo more difficult. I do think it's possible to make it work, but I think one of the largest current obstacles remains their relative isolation from usual scaling systems, a problem Riot is worsening by further distancing them from gold and experience.

FairyfleurAug 15, 20176 votes

So we're just going to ignore that Corki has a 7% playrate? He might not need to be nerfed, but your argument means nothing if you don't include the champion's playrate.

ZedexAug 15, 20175 votes

Does this mean I can pick Jhin mid without getting flamed finally?

PennsAug 15, 20173 votes

look at dem Leblanc Ryze Azir Galio win rates tho

EedatAug 15, 201711 votes

#LC$

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20171 votes

I kinda wanna make a discord server of people on the boards who actually know how the game balance works.

People like you who are willing to say "Wait a sec, mages are the strong ones."

EDIT: among other things like "Hexdrinker doesn't need a nerf because assassins are supposed to be strong early and already suck late." or "Vayne can be buffed because of X, Y and Z, but don't buff A and B about here". You know, thoughtful discussion unlike the boards. People truly enjoy misunderstandings.

LauchmelderAug 15, 20173 votes

And what stops you from doing that?

I mean, the neo nazi groups also think they're right inside their own bubble while their ideals are disgusting and wrong to the majority.

Aka you'd create your own thought bubble and safe space, nobody's stopping you though.

AirKingNeoAug 15, 20171 votes

Except at least there would be people with different ideas having good discussion. It's not stupid people think Hexdrinker needs to be nerfed, or that Stoneplate is perfectly balanced, or that Vayne shouldn't ever be buffed.

Effectively it's like people gathering together during the Renaissance.

LauchmelderAug 15, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Except at least there would be people with different ideas having good discussion.

No. That's exactly what WOULDN'T happen in your little bubble.

It's just what you'd perceive as a "good discussion", objectively it wouldn't be one because you filter out the opinions you don't want to hear. I could make this political because both left and right wing parties do the exact same bullshit.

AnidanAug 16, 20171 votes

To be fair, we don't even have to make it political. We can just use game communities: The big 3 mobas (League, DotA2, HotS) all hovel around their own campfires, and while some people can seamlessly go from one to another, or all 3, other people will insult the people at the other campfires and their camp itself. And then of course there's other bubbles in various parts of the gaming world (some of which are politically-charged bubbles that only somewhat relate to gaming).

That said: don't ask older or more knowledgeable DotA players about their opinion of Riot itself. If you want to see some vitriol, that'll do you, thanks to the bad blood Riot accrued with the DotA community when it was starting up.

NineTailedMysticAug 16, 20171 votes

So you can have your cool kids club and laugh at people with differing opinions in your chat?

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

Not really, nor do I appreciate the insult.

Just smart people who know how the game works.

NineTailedMysticAug 16, 20171 votes

And you're insulting a large portion of the boards by saying "I'd only invite 'smart' people".

AirKingNeoAug 16, 20171 votes

Am I really insulting them if I'm just describing them? Most people here are not smart and any first hand look at Gameplay already explains that.

I don't really see how having people who know how the game works talk about how to improve the game would be a bad thing.