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Why are everyone in fear that if Sightstone is buffed, other roles can "abuse" it?

YumaS2Astral··82 votes·4,876 views

I don't get it, why that would be bad? After all, sight is the key to victory Braum, encouraging players to buy more wards would just be very good. You are teaching them the importance of vision and how it can change the outcome of games.

I am asking that because everytime someone make a thread about buffing Sightstone, giving it more options such as "jungler item-like" upgrades, such as an AP upgrade, an AD upgrade, and a tank upgrade for Sightstone. Then everyone says that it can be abused by other roles, and that Riot should avoid trying to buff Sightstone for that reason. I don't understand why would that be bad.

Tank junglers for example, already take Sightstone for more vision control. Also, to be honest, if weren't for the wards, there would be no reason to buy Sightstone since the item itself is mediocre and gives bad stats - it is expensive for an HP item, you are better off purchasing a Giant's Belt. I bet that any possible upgrades for it would suffer from the same problem - taking out the fact that they provide wards, they would be outclassed by other items. However, wards are so good and game changing that even if the item itself is mediocre stat-wise, Sightstone is still a must buy for supports, and a fantastic pick for tank junglers.

132 Comments

Xonra58 votes

No one else is going to abuse it lol

Most people can't use their free trinket ward. Like people are suddenly going to buy a warding item. Good luck with that.

Virgin Ray10 votes

To make things worse, let's not forget them forgeting to upgrade their trinket.

Malicious Fury3 votes

They forget because most games don't go long enough to buy it (assuming it's the last thing they want to buy after boot enchantment) so when a game does go that long they don't think of it so they don't buy it. Really all I see are sweeper upgrades by supports mid-game. That's about it.

Ancestor0072 votes

Until level 11, everyone should have their trinket upgraded.

Aych Pii1 votes

250 gold, available from level 9, one probably could make an argument for it being literally the most gold efficient option available to you from the moment it's possible to buy it. And it doesn't even use an item slot.

If your games rarely go to level 9, then fine, okay. But otherwise everybody should be buying these things at the first possible opportunity. I often get it immediately after my second tier boots.

Mandang03 votes

Seems a bit shortsighted to say people won't buy it because it's just a warding item before we've discussed what the upgrade is going to look like.

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

Seems a bit shortsighted

I see what you did there.

Xonra1 votes

{quoted}

Seems a bit shortsighted to say people won't buy it because it's just a warding item before we've discussed what the upgrade is going to look like.

Short..."sighted". I see what you did there.

YOLO420SWAGSCOPE23 votes

Braum : "Sight is the key to victory"

LeeSin: item 3070

500000000000000015 votes

Anyone who can ward jump already does it with item 3361 anyway

3tyson12 votes

all sightstone currently is, is an item that allows you to get item 3341 you could just aswel upgrade trinket instead

3TWarrior1 votes

that's the wrong trinket item

3tyson10 votes

noo a sightstone allows you to get sweeper without losing wards if you dont buy sightstone you upgrade trinket

Nameless Voice12 votes

There are three champions who could abuse it: LeeSin Jax Katarina

Personally, I'd like to see ward-hopping completely removed from the game.

YumaS2Astral7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YTgW09dE,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-07-04T20:58:28.886+0000)

There are three champions who could abuse it: LeeSin Jax Katarina

Personally, I'd like to see ward-hopping completely removed from the game.

Then nerf those champions instead of not introducing the items because they could be abused.

xl Kirito lx4 votes

Isn't that the exact opposite of what people are saying about the new devourer enchantment? And to a lesser extent, runeglaive?

Xeynid3 votes

Well, these 3 champions are a massive minority compared to the actual cast of the game. It wouldn't make sense to take an item that will benefit nearly every champion, and then remove it because 3 champions can abuse it just a little bit.

There's the concern that if you nerf these champions in preparation for an advanced sightstone that you just make them even more dependent on the item, but the obvious answer to both issues would be to just stop letting people ward hop (or take the lee sin route of giving their abilities a punishment if you use them on a ward.)

xl Kirito lx2 votes

My mistake, I wasn't referencing those three champions specifically. The introduction of runeglaive brought AP ezreal to the forefront of the meta, and many speculate that Yi will become FotM after the new devourer. In general, people want Runeglaive and Devourer changed, instead of AP ezreal and Xin Zhao.

agbudar2 votes

many lee sin's do this already so whats your point?

Sona Ping3 votes

The point is exactly that! It would be a plain buff to Lee-Sin because many Lee-Sin's buy it already!

I'm not opposed to buffing Sightstone just because of a couple champs, but the point was right in front of you.

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Ward hopping is the worst mechanic in this game.

Ancestor0072 votes

How about %max hp true damage(Vayne ). Or an infinite stacking smite(Kalista ). Or an aoe stun+shield.(Ekko ). Or maybe infinite mobility (Kalista Yasuo ).

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Honestly, I think ward hopping is worse than all of those combined.

Ancestor0071 votes

So you are saying that a ward hop every ~10 second is worst than a kalista hop every 1 second. At least ward hopping doesn't allow you to kite. It is just a harder to pull of flash

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Kalista's hop is a major focal point of her kit. I would argue it is her main identity. To talk about taking that away is wasted breath; Riot put it there purposefully, and it's here to stay. She can be nerfed in other ways, and they are up to that right now on this patch. She can't cancel autos, they are now going to do 90% damage, etc. Her power comes with drawbacks.

Ward hopping, by comparison, is exactly as you describe; a free flash. There is no drawback. EVERY champion in the game could benefit from this free flash, but only a few do. It is inherently unhealthy, in my opinion. It cannot be balanced. Therefore, it should be taken out.

metaworldpeace1011 votes

If you added another role who could use sightstone (top for example) ganking would be more difficult, the meta would turn into a stale farm meta and teamfights would happen a lot less frequently. While, I agree that sightstone in general is in a bad spot, its really hard to buff an item as potentially powerful like sightstone. You don't want the whole map littered with wards at will, you want to have enough wards on the map to keep your team safe, but not too many such as your team basically has a map hacks view of the rift.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

You don't want the whole map littered with wards at will, you want to have enough wards on the map to keep your team safe, but not too many such as your team basically has a map hacks view of the rift.

If everyone has a yellow trinket (except support with red and stone), this is already possible. And really, upgraded yellow trinket is just as strong as sightstone for a fraction of the cost (lets be honest, the health is forgettable unless your Soraka).

Fried Noob7 votes

See cinderhulk, runeglaive, spirit of the elder lizard, and relic shield as examples of what happens when you have an item that is good and helps out the intended role, but gets abused to hell by laners, thus ruining it for the intended target.

Silent Pace1 votes

[deleted]

Tuss2 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Relic_Shield

Each item and champion has a patch history on the wiki.

Kuroi863 votes

We're talking item 2049 not item 1039 If more people got item 2049 and actually used it, it couldn't be ruined, it's meant to do what it does, give vision.

LaceUp233 votes

How is sightstone going to be abused? I highly doubt they would ever give it 80 AP. I think people are just asking for different versions. So that way Raka can get something like 30 AP and not get penalized by her spells for building sightstone.

darkmatchwaldo4 votes

Sightstone being abused by all laners sounds like a dream to me. If i had literally anyone else on my team buy sightsone i would be thrilled, you can never have too much vision.

Ancestor0072 votes

Or at least if they would upgrade the damn trinkets

AyRe CoNteMpT3 votes

everything that was ever buffed always ruined everything else. typical league of legends history. thats why people fear buffs more than all possible nerfs.

Shifune3 votes

I could care less for sightstone. Upgraded trinket ward is better anyway because I don't need to go back to base to refill my wards. Plus, no one was complaining about vision when sightstone was a popular item on tank junglers a while back.

TotalJerk4 votes

But if you're using the upgraded ward trinket, you can't use the sweeper.

Shifune1 votes

Everyone on your team doesn't need a sweeper. Add in raptor smite bonus and a few pink wards and you have all the ward clearing you need.

TotalJerk2 votes

No, but someone does. Typically that someone that buys a sweeper is the support. Also, you're basically paying 100 gold to sweep a 75 gold enemy ward on top of losing whatever pink you'd previously placed.

Stacona3 votes

they buffed yellow trinket to be like a sightstone, people still do not buy it - so arguments about a stronger sightstone will be in reality the supportive roles like support and sometimes junglers will only get sightstone

Malicious Fury3 votes

You can only have 3 wards up at a time anyways and by getting a sightstone you're giving up hard stats for wards. I don't see this as an abuse-able thing at all.

Paress3 votes

Well, item 3361 already offers nice number of wards, so it's not like item 2045 would be perma-picked

thinking man2 votes

sightstone is already mandatory to buy on a support so there's no reason to buff it

would also slow down the game if it were slot-efficient

Myrddin3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phane Sorter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YTgW09dE,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-04T18:26:11.137+0000)

sightstone is already mandatory to buy on a support so there's no reason to buff it

would also slow down the game if it were slot-efficient

Sightstone by itself is fine, but ruby should be removed or just maybe better in some way.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

It's because of snowballing.

  • If sightstone becomes a combat-stat-effective purchase, it's a great item for everyone.
  • If everyone picks up (and uses) a sightstone, you can get full lights on half of the map.
  • The winning team can ward 100% of the enemy's jungle, 100% of the time.
  • Vision denial becomes impossible for the losing team.
  • It's not safe for the losing team to step out of their base.
  • The winning team gradually farms up a large enough gold and xp lead to force a win.

tl;dr, when the winning team has full vision it's too hard to make a comeback.

chipndip11 votes

Like a smart team can't do this with advanced trinkets already? The reason why you don't think so is because hardly anyone upgrades their trinket. If support has a SS, 2-3 other dudes have upgraded trinkets, and the adc has a scrying orb, vision control is gonna be hella strong regardless.

I mean, I'm just saying that some supports would want a little ap or mana regen over 250 health. Some supports mi-...Gangplank might want 20 ad or so. It's not a big change. It's just a little something that isn't a little health.

Rismonaught2 votes

How about better SSs with less useful wards. Like maybe the fog reveal portion cycles on and off and while on can be destroyed

Silents4292 votes

Tank junglers for example, already take Sightstone for more vision control. Also, to be honest, if weren't for the wards, there would be no reason to buy Sightstone since the item itself is mediocre and gives bad stats - it is expensive for an HP item, you are better off purchasing a Giant's Belt.

I have never once witnessed another jungle buy a sightstone nor have I myself ever wanted to. It's a terribly item for tanks, and with junglers where every penny counts they are shoot themselves in the foot for not rushing any resistance right away.

As for the abuse part it's mainly combining HP with damage, allowing roles to get tankier with damage, which they don't want.

WingsofGulgazor2 votes

I think it should just be buffed by making the ruby sightstone upgrade allow players to place 4 wards down instead of just 3. If it's going to have other stats like Ad an Ap if it's enough to help supports out to any good amount it would help other roles and if it's not enough to help supports a decent amount then the upgrades won't just be ignored by laners but by supports as well since there are other things they can get. The only thing I can see is if they do the same thing as they did with machete or elixirs where you have to be a certain level to buy the upgrade or can't get the upgrade if you have smite or don't have exhaust or already have a machete upgrade. That would prevent things like jungle lee sin from abusing it without making sacrifices elsewhere and I don't think any other role other then jungle would really be able to abuse it much unless it's a mega op item.

The only way I feel they could make sightstone strong like that would be if thye made it like ROA where it takes 30 minutes to get the stats out of it so players like supports who have little money could invest a small amount early and get an item later that's weaker then say void staff/rabadons/zhonya's ect but still be decently strong and other roles wouldn't use it because it's just not worth it and then lee sin could use a buff so who cares if he would use it especially since it would take 30 mins to get the stats and lee sin is almost useless then anyway. and jax and katarina I doubt would build it or get much benefit from the stats since they have other things they would want to buy early game.

Partholonian1 votes

{quoted}

I think it should just be buffed by making the ruby sightstone upgrade allow players to place 4 wards down instead of just 3.

Oh god no, this would make it a mandatory rush and wreck supports' already weak ability to build a few real items before the game ends.

IMO they should get rid of sightstone and replace it altogether -- not just ruby, but the whole item, and consumable wards too. Gold being both a stat resource and a vision resource produces really bad results (mainly, the player with the least gold has to sacrifice a bunch of it so everyone else can see). Supports should be free to buy items that improve their kit and help them contribute to fights like anyone else, even if their kit isn't about dealing tons of damage.

Trinkets are constrained by their slots and charges/cooldowns. IMO that's a better system than "how much vision do you want to pay for", which has been notoriously snowbally at some points and also puts the burden of actually making that payment on some players more than others, to the detriment of their ability to play their actual role and champion. The trinket slot is a resource that everyone has, that can't be traded off for combat stats; you either use it or you waste it. You can't just say "well, the support should build 5 trinkets so no one else has to build any" -- which would totally be the meta if trinkets took up ordinary slots and cost 800 gold each (imagine how anti-fun that role would be).

If the team needs vision more than it needs you to be a strong champion, then you have a choice between being weak and throwing the game. That's not a fun choice. It's a little less bad this season than it was in some past seasons, but it's still there.

P.S. Another non-gold-based idea I floated at once point is to have consumable wards cost 0 gold, but the shop has a limited supply and gains them slowly over time (pinks more slowly than greens). But then people could troll by hogging and/or wasting the team's wards. Trinkets are non-rivalrous against other items you want and against other players on your team -- they ONLY compete with other trinkets or other ways of using the trinket you have -- and that's what makes them great.

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