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Just a friendly reminder for frustrated Gameplay users

Rock MD··90 votes·4,495 views

Some champions are gonna stay trash in low elo because they're too gamebreakingly strong in high elo/competitive play otherwise.

Malzahar rework was a failure but he's still strong in competitive, which is why his current edition won't see buffs.

Stop using Mordekaiser as a metric for balance. Stop.

Zyra will never be a midlaner due to her short ranged ultimate. The only lockdown midlaners that have ultimates that short ranged are Annie and Morg. Guess where they were primarily played competitively.

Lee Sin needs a nerf but removing his W's wardhop functionality takes too much away from his kit and the complex impact he can have on the game, which isn't the kind of interaction you want to remove. I don't know why he gets so much hate here anyway he's not even good in most players' elo he's just annoyingly repetitive to see.

Tanks don't need a 53% winrate to be good. Nor do they need damage.

On that topic, everyone who is making threats to quit playing Zac because he's weak for one patch, stop. He's been a fairly viable jungler now for a long ass time and it's not like Riot will leave a champion THEY JUST REWORKED intentionally shit for longer than 2 patches. I'd love to see suggestions on fixing him but threatening to quit is obnoxious and by now repetitive.

And finally, tanks shouldn't have a baseline item like everyone else has. They should have two. One for armor, one for MR. If one (Sunfire) is weak then it should get buffed but if tanks get everything they need (like Morellonomicon does) on the first back they're just end up unkillable without any fair sort of justification.

143 Comments

Malicious Metal31 votes

Who even uses Morde as a metric for balance, lol?

Rock MD48 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PbQrsv8m,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-09T20:11:12.633+0000)

Who even uses Morde as a metric for balance, lol?

"Don't nerf Rylai's. It's what keeps Morde viable."

"Don't nerf Gunblade. It's what keeps Morde viable."

Sound oddly familiar?

Malicious Metal43 votes

Too bad nobody denied these items needed nerfs.

And as a Morde main you can bet your right nut I'll bitch and complain about changes that might hurt him. But hell, I never said Rylais shouldn't be nerfed, just stressing that the champion does rely a tad too much on the Item.

As was shown by his win rate dipping after the changes.

Edit; And honestly, you can take that passive aggressive attitude of yours and shove it where the sun don't shine. That place being the Twisted Treeline.

Erractic Eick13 votes

HEY!

We like it here on TT. Don't send your unwanteds to us.

YumaS2Astral16 votes

This is the first time I see Malicious Metal being downvoted

Troll for Trump7 votes

That's what happens when you wander too far from memes and games

Malicious Metal8 votes

Honestly, I enjoy gameplay discussions more than memes. Or well, champion fantasies and thematic appeal.

Troll for Trump4 votes

Mordekaiser needs nerfs

Malicious Metal9 votes

I suggest removing his XP passive and dragon ghost :' )

TyrekGoldenspear13 votes

Add Baron Nashor ghost to compensate. :^)

TimX24968B4 votes

Just imagine seeing that thing trudge around on the rift... lol.

Slack King2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PbQrsv8m,comment-id=000400010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-10T00:01:21.174+0000)

I suggest removing his XP passive and dragon ghost :' )

I suggest removing all his bugs, and shit base stats

Morgan le Fey5 votes

I agree, remove all of Mordekaiser's base stats. 0 AD, 0 armor, 0 MR, 0.00 AS, 0 HP, 0 mana, 0 health regen, 0 movespeed, and 0 range. That way he can be properly balanced around his true calling: possessing rift scuttlers in Twisted Treeline.

Catastrop3 votes

He still has the XP passive? I thought it got removed because he practically disappeared from botlane.

FiddlesOnTheRoof10 votes

Zyra will never be a midlaner due to her short ranged ultimate. The only midlaners that have ultimates that short ranged are Annie and Morg. Guess where they were primarily played competitively.

uhhhh..... Ahri Akali Anivia AurelionSol Azir Brand Cassiopeia Diana Ekko Orianna Syndra Veigar Vladimir

Billy VoHagen17 votes

Are you trying to say that Ahri, Aurelion Sol, Ekko, or Orianna have short ranged ultimates?

Oelyk6 votes

The Asol though... Thats one of the longer ones.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

Ahri's damage pick up range is rather short (500-ish range). It's just compensated with the Dashes

NineTailedMystic2 votes

550 for W and 600 for R.

Redesignated24 votes

Of those, Akali, Anivia, Aurelion Sol, Brand, Diana, and Veigar are all incredibly rare to see.

In the spring split, Akali was picked in 7 matches and banned in 5, Anivia was picked in 13 and banned in 19, Aurelion Sol was picked in 26 and banned in 59 (and a lot of those bans were reputation bans because of players notorious for their skill on him), Azir was picked in 33 matches and banned in 4, Diana and Veigar were never picked or banned once, and Brand was picked 16 times and banned 14 times while only seeing play as a support in the matches he was chosen. (source)

Of the rest:

Ahri is a mage assassin that's far more mobile than Zyra, Annie, or Morgana.

Cassiopeia is a highly-mechanical DPS mage, as opposed to the predictability and simplicity of Annie and Morgana, and is currently the sole contributor of the Grounded debuff in the game. Because she literally can't buy boots, her end-game damage potential from having an "extra" item slot is also absolutely disgusting.

Ekko sees a massive amount of play specifically against Syndra because he can nullify her ultimate with his own, and pose a significant threat to her. Otherwise, he's much rarer.

Orianna has big utility and late-game damage potential off of Command: Shockwave alone, and she also provides protection with Command: Protect's shield and free Armor + Magic Resistance. The Ball can be used to scout brushes. Her ability to clear waves for an extended period is also very high. She doesn't have to put herself in as much danger as Zyra, Annie, or Morgana do to use her ultimate since she can just attach The Ball to a diver and let them lead the charge while she's farther back.

Syndra is just a generically-powerful damage source that will kill pretty much anything she wants at almost any point she wants. Everybody is well-aware of the High IQ Button that can instantly kill people from 60% HP in mid-game. She can also steal buffs, which is incredibly frustrating for both enemy laners and enemy junglers when you're well-coordinated with your team.

And Vladimir is a Grievous Wounds gold sink with an ultimate that gives a 10% damage amplification for him and all his allies.

Now, it's worth noting, Annie and Morgana have basically dropped off the face of competitive completely. Annie was in a single match, and Morgana was only in twelve (while receiving just 3 bans). Some of the reasons Zyra remains is because her root can hit multiple people (Morgana Q is single-target) from a relatively safe range (Annie W/R are both short-range, Morgana R is time-delayed and requires people to be close to her), she has safer disengage, her synergestic items are a bit less selfish for the role or more easily used in general situations (Liandry's and Rylai's to chip at people from a distance continuously for Zyra, vs. Zhonya's for surviving using her own ultimate for Morg), and her seed "danger zones" are very conducive to preventing aggression.

Zyra can work in mid, but her current design and damage (especially flat vs. AP scaling) values just lend themselves so much more toward support in the eyes of most people.

Serika Zero2 votes

i main akali and diana............ they are only in a bad spot due to HOW FUCKING MANY OPTIONS THERE ARE FOR MR: item 3155 - bonkers, the shield is insane item 3156 - even stronger, but its basically the same as hexdrinker, so, they should count as 1. Still huge difference between hexdrinker and arguard (from zhonias), you can stay on a hex drinker the entire game and be fine. You fucking need to upgrade armguard for it to be worth something item 3814 - hue hue spells shield on top of it item 3102 - hey aps need some defensive vs aps too item 3001 - how about one more? item 3065 - hey tanks and fighters? don't feel left out item 3194 - in case visage wasn't enough ;)

Meanwhile, options vs ADs: item 3026 - hey adcs and fighters, this is for you item 3025 - here's one more, just because, you know, we ain't biased at all item 3157 - hey mages and other ap users, this is for you item 3143 item 3068 item 3110 - for your friends, the tanks ;)

That's why they are having issues. To many MR options for everyone.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PbQrsv8m,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-05-10T12:02:24.562+0000)

i main akali and diana............ they are only in a bad spot due to HOW FUCKING MANY OPTIONS THERE ARE FOR MR: item 3156 - even stronger, but its basically the same as hexdrinker, so, they should count as 1. Still huge difference between hexdrinker and arguard (from zhonias), you can stay on a hex drinker the entire game and be fine. You fucking need to upgrade armguard for it to be worth something

You're right. They are one item.

item 3814 - hue hue spells shield on top of it

Viable only on assassins.

item 3102 - hey aps need some defensive vs aps too

You can buy this, too.

item 3001 - how about one more?

That's a tank item.

item 3065 - hey tanks and fighters? don't feel left out

Really is a sustain item. You're not meant to fight tanks, anyways. You're an assassin, not a DPS.

item 3194 - in case visage wasn't enough ;)

Passive is almost literately useless against Akali and Diana.

Meanwhile, options vs ADs: item 3026 - hey adcs and fighters, this is for you

Akali can use this, since her kit also is full of AD scalings. Diana can use it, too, just not as well.

item 3025 - here's one more, just because, you know, we ain't biased at all

This is a tank item. Not an ADC item (shut it, Ezreal).

item 3157 - hey mages and other ap users, this is for you

You can use this as either. It's one of my go-to items on Diana, actually.

item 3143 item 3068 item 3110 - for your friends, the tanks ;)

You're right. Tank items. Ignoring the other 20+ armor items, such as item 3060, item 3742, item 3193, item 3109, item 3190, item 3047, item 3075, or any others I didn't want to list.

That's why they are having issues. To many MR options for everyone.

Fun fact: there are actually more armor items than there are MR items!

crippler3813 votes

Be Fair, Azir's ultimate is a fuck off button.

GULAG 4 U3 votes

'Get the fuck off me I'm anxious'

meme inc

IcyPepper10 votes

I don't know why he gets so much hate here anyway he's not even good in most players' elo he's just annoyingly repetitive to see.

I mean, isn't that the main reason he gets so much hate...?

AgentBlack8 votes

A smart post in a sea of salt.

Mira Arya Enthe8 votes

Some champions are gonna stay trash in low elo because they're too gamebreakingly strong in high elo/competitive play otherwise.

And Vice Versa Garen MasterYi Aatrox XinZhao

TimX24968B5 votes

and making them viable in higher elo would lead to absurd winrates at low elo.

Dusk Mane Rengar3 votes

Which is totally ok.

Game should be balanced for High Elo.

SlowRoastedPoros2 votes

said 0.03% of the games fanbase.

TimX24968B1 votes

riot already made their stance against this: http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/02/ask-riot-malzahar-kills-the-lady/ the answer would be right there in the first question: "A lot of the feedback we receive from players is about how a particular change won’t solve a balance issue at Challenger or Pro. But that’s not the focus."

Another piece of the issue: "So if you take a popular lower ELO champion like Garen and vow that he needs to be picked at pro, you could end up with a monster with a 65%+ winrate in Silver. You could do a big rework on him so that his winrate in Silver was around 50% and close to that for pro, but he might end up so mechanically complex that he isn’t as popular as he is today (or more likely, probably wouldn’t stay at 50% in Silver for long)."

but ultimately: "The problem we have is to achieve that today would take a lot of trade-offs."

Dusk Mane Rengar4 votes

Translation: We can fix the game, but our players sucks at playing the game so we don't fix it.

TimX24968B1 votes

Im sure if you were running a business, and you had 100 million people playing your game, would you want to help out the 100,000 that want the game to be closer to their top-tier level of play, or would you want to design more for the other 99.9 million who would actually feel the impact more? Which would you and your company benefit from more? There's alot more to consider than your high silver/low gold (or my bronze IDGAF about anymore) ass would care. Have some respect for the programmers and balance team.

Also, by the way, being in low gold is still considered "low elo". people have mentioned that the try to balance around plat, but again, like i said, there's alot more to consider there.

Dusk Mane Rengar2 votes

Im sure if you were running a business, and you had 100 million people playing your game, would you want to help out the 100,000 that want the game to be closer to their top-tier level of play, or would you want to design more for the other 99.9 million who would actually feel the impact more? Which would you and your company benefit from more?

Yet, the game is balanced for e sports so your point means nothing.

Game should be balanced for Diamond and challenger, aka the people who know how to play.

Have some respect for the programmers and balance team.

I respect programmers, but balance team is full of monkeys, I couldnt probably do better but it's truth balance team of this game is shit.

Also, by the way, being in low gold is still considered "low elo". people have mentioned that the try to balance around plat, but again, like i said, there's alot more to consider there.

Low gold is low elo, I know aaaaand?

There is nothing to consider there are 2 kind of people in this game:

The ones who know the game: Diamond and up.

The ones who suck and doesn't know shit: all below diamond.

Yordle Xayah6 votes

Tristana help me

Vectros5 votes

it's not like Riot will leave a champion THEY JUST REWORKED intentionally shit for longer than 2 patches

Heh...you haven't watched past reworks have you? There's probably a dozen or more reworks we could look at that turned a champion to crap. Like Skarner.

JaxMoonStealer3 votes

Yeah, because Skarner is sooooo weak at the moment...

Vectros5 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, because Skarner is sooooo weak at the moment...

He has like a 46% win rate. I'm not saying he's urgot level, but he doesn't see much success. This is actually made worse when you realize he has a rather low play rate, and still can't even hit 50%. Which means it's his mains playing him, and they struggle to make 50. Yeah, he is weak. Don't get me wrong, I still love him. His late game is SUPER nasty, one of the strongest if you ask me.

But good luck reaching it. Lee Sin, Rengar, Khazix, etc. will tear you a new one before you have a chance of getting there. Not to mention their ganks are easier due to gap closers.

ProfDrDeath4 votes

http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Skarner/

More like, 52% on average.

http://beta.champion.gg/champion/Skarner/Jungle

And it looks like he had a similar performance for several patches.

Vectros2 votes

{quoted}

http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Skarner/

More like, 52% on average.

http://beta.champion.gg/champion/Skarner/Jungle

And it looks like he had a similar performance for several patches.

Fair enough. I did take a look at it not too long ago, within the past week or 2, and showed 46%. Maybe it was a glitch or just and odd time to check, I'm not sure.

Though I do still have a point to hold, even with 52%. He's played very infrequently-I think it's safe to say only Skarner mains play him...and his winrate is 52%. 52 would be good if he was popular like Ahri, but he's not. I've seen some people with 60%+ winrate on their mains-if Skarner was secretly OP or something, I feel it'd have to be much higher given how few people actually play him.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Because the only thing people care about is strength and not whether a champ feels terrible to play, right? Skarner is functional, yes, but there's no reason to pick him over anyone else other than his ult and even then you can get similar results with basic CC ults.

Why play a fighter who's steroid only works in six spots on the map that are nowhere near where most of the game takes place, in lanes and in bases when you can play EVERY SINGLE OTHER FIGHTER, who's steroid can be used anywhere on the map. Yes, it's different, but different does not always equal good because Skarner doesn't offer anything in compensation for that restriction.

Rock MD4 votes

{quoted}

Heh...you haven't watched past reworks have you? There's probably a dozen or more reworks we could look at that turned a champion to crap. Like Skarner.

Key phrase; they just reworked. Literally every juggernaut was strong for at least some point after their rework. Garen had some shenanigans for a bit, Darius is still good, Mordekaiser had a fucking 60% winrate for a short period of time, even Skarner was playable.

When mages were underwhelming after their rework, they were buffed too. Syndra was, look where she is now. Zyra is still a solo queue monster.

Hell even after the assassin rework all of them had a period of time where they were, minimally, decent.

Same will happen with Zac if he's actually weak (saying that as someone who hasn't seen a lot of Zacs and can't make an informed decision about how strong he is right now) and if you don't think Riot will rectify that mistake for a champion they made a huge deal about reworking you're not looking at past patterns.

Hexs Fortune5 votes

if tanks get everything they need (like Morellonomicon does) on the first back they're just end up unkillable without any fair sort of justification.

The justification is they posses low damage and require teammates to function

YokoNomi4 votes

A great deal of my time played within this game's earlier seasons was with Malzahar prior to the rework. People can try to justify the vapid debuffing that seems to just plague the champion's current kit at this point, but to see my once favorite champion get intentionally turned into dust, due to exclusive use of what feels like just a handful of people in comparison to the majority of the game's community destroys any sense I have in playing him anymore.

I fully understand why higher elo gaming dictates the fate of some of the champions. But this is getting ridiculous.

Serika Zero1 votes

Lee Sin needs a nerf but removing his W's wardhop functionality takes too much away from his kit and the complex impact he can have on the game, which isn't the kind of interaction you want to remove. I don't know why he gets so much hate here anyway he's not even good in most players' elo he's just annoyingly repetitive to see.

he has fucking 7 abilities and you worry that not allowing one of those 7 abilities to do a part (1 out of 3 things, he can dash to minions, champions and wards) of his stuff would be game breaking? wtf are you smoking?

luhegha74 votes

Hes an average champ, that takes skill to play well, if you die to him it means you cant move away from a skill shot, so you deserve it.

Serika Zero2 votes

he is so "average" that he gets in top tier meta junglers every year since i've started playing this game (s3), and always has around 49-50-51% win ratio despite his pick ratio being constantly over 30%

luhegha72 votes

So he wins 50% of the time, that is the definition of average. Hes not overtuned, and falls off late game.

Serika Zero2 votes

not when EVERYONE plays him to put it in a way you can understand.

Think about food. Now, Lee is the water. Water might not be the most expensive food and drinkable things you can buy, but you can't exist without it. You need it to cook, you need it to make drinks, you need it to make cookies, you need it to brush your teeth, you need it to wash the dishes, you need it to take a shower. And so on.

That's what lee is like. He is not balanced compared with something else, he is overpowered, that's why he maintains an average win ratio despite being PLAYED SO FUCKING DARN MUCH. HE ALSO HAS NO COUNTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SlowRoastedPoros2 votes

and always has around 49-50-51% win ratio

You can stop complaining now

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