what champion is the True AP version of pantheon (is there any mages that fall off mid/late?)

xDogMeatx·Mar 12, 2019·2 votes·3,623 views

any mages of the roster that has high bases yet falls off late game due to scaling reasons.

44 Comments

PhearBunnyMar 12, 20193 votes

What is this myth that Pantheon falls off? He doesn't fall off.

He either pops off or is useless. but he doesn't just fall off out of nowhere.

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What is this myth that Pantheon falls off? He doesn't fall off.

He either pops off or is useless. but he doesn't just fall off out of nowhere.

only vs fighters that build deadmans or other similar defense item he does fall off.

3TWarriorMar 12, 20194 votes

doesn't just "fall out of nowhere" of course he doesn't, he just paints a big circle for his targets to let them know he is going to crush them beforehand so that it's more "sporting" XD

MankeyMadnessMar 12, 20192 votes

40% CDR and item 3135 makes you immune to "falling off".

3TWarriorMar 12, 20191 votes

see my other post...

with how fast games still are, you're lucky to even get one, let alone even have opponents building MR like they should be

mages are fine

3TWarriorMar 12, 20192 votes

Chogath (if tank )

Elise (where most of her purpose is jungling single targets )

Heimerdinger , he's powerful, but pretty much everything can outscale him, so he focuses on what he can do at a time. he's versatile though

Lissandra : her entire purpose is defensive plays and crowd control

Morgana : (or at least she did, I don't know about her current version) she had a lot of power, but it's hard to lock down a target for her

Nasus ( if you play him as AP, maintains high burst but is still not built for team-fights)

Teemo : he's built around control, so damage isn't really his thing despite decent sustained damage

TwistedFate : falls off ridiculously hard. His entire gameplay is centered around snowballing and splitpushing unless you build him off-meta

Varus : i'm not even sure if AP varus is a thing anymore. His early poke is ridiculous either way but late game it tends to not be his focus

and I think that's it. Mages are a scaling class but their power is kept in check because most of them rely on skillshots to actually deal damage, magic resist basically cripples them, and overall being very inconsistent in their output of crowd control and damage, not to mention leveraging cooldowns

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

(if tank )

(where most of her purpose is jungling single targets )

, he's powerful, but pretty much everything can outscale him, so he focuses on what he can do at a time. he's versatile though

: her entire purpose is defensive plays and crowd control

: (or at least she did, I don't know about her current version) she had a lot of power, but it's hard to lock down a target for her

( if you play him as AP, maintains high burst but is still not built for team-fights)

: he's built around control, so damage isn't really his thing despite decent sustained damage

: falls off ridiculously hard. His entire gameplay is centered around snowballing and splitpushing unless you build him off-meta

: i'm not even sure if AP varus is a thing anymore. His early poke is ridiculous either way but late game it tends to not be his focus

and I think that's it. Mages are a scaling class but their power is kept in check because most of them rely on skillshots to actually deal damage, magic resist basically cripples them, and overall being very inconsistent in their output of crowd control and damage, not to mention leveraging cooldowns

oh ok. i thought elise doesnt fall off due to her play difficulty.

3TWarriorMar 12, 20191 votes

she functions about the same as lee sin but has less kill pressure and more poke damage and crowd control

xDogMeatxMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

she functions about the same as lee sin but has less kill pressure and more poke damage and crowd control

so she has some safety/stun for her power your saying?

3TWarriorMar 13, 20191 votes

I'll give an analogy

let's say basketball. Lee sin likes to dunk the ball, Elise likes to get close and take more accurate shots

both champions are hard-engage disrupters, lee sin commits to most of what he does and has a much bigger pay-off. Elise can commit but has a much less effective pay-off in exchange for her range and crowd control

I would say she is more powerful, but not more effective depending upon the situation at hand

She used to be one of the WORST junglers before riot put so much emphasis on the early game

your statement is about right though. They're both playing at the same objective but from different perspectives

Elise doesn't make any game-ending sudden plays, but she can fall back on her reliable abilities. Lee sin makes sudden flash plays that poke holes in his opponents' strategies, but if he is unsucessful, he gets shut down hard

xDogMeatxMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'll give an analogy

let's say basketball. Lee sin likes to dunk the ball, Elise likes to get close and take more accurate shots

both champions are hard-engage disrupters, lee sin commits to most of what he does and has a much bigger pay-off. Elise can commit but has a much less effective pay-off in exchange for her range and crowd control

I would say she is more powerful, but not more effective depending upon the situation at hand

She used to be one of the WORST junglers before riot put so much emphasis on the early game

your statement is about right though. They're both playing at the same objective but from different perspectives

Elise doesn't make any game-ending sudden plays, but she can fall back on her reliable abilities. Lee sin makes sudden flash plays that poke holes in his opponents' strategies, but if he is unsucessful, he gets shut down hard

you saying that hes made to break someones positioning vs her whos made to whittle the tanky enemies down plus CC the threats if there is any for carries. which lee sin can do in a different way? if im reading that right but he has more displaces/moves to use and if he fails he has 0 way out.

3TWarriorMar 14, 20191 votes

I think that about sums it up. It's not easy to compare them, but they do share the same intentions with different methods

xDogMeatxMar 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I think that about sums it up. It's not easy to compare them, but they do share the same intentions with different methods

its explained well.

PsyrixMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

oh ok. i thought elise doesnt fall off due to her play difficulty.

Oh no xD, Elise falls off HARD lategame... she excels at early to mid game, but unless ur ahead, even making picks can get hard... that’s why many build into offtank after the first two-3 items. Cuz her usefulness kinda declines even tho it really shouldn’t cuz she has strong cc and a decent burst... them being single target, or hard to reliably get off on priority targets becomes the issue

xDogMeatxMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Oh no xD, Elise falls off HARD lategame... she excels at early to mid game, but unless ur ahead, even making picks can get hard... that’s why many build into offtank after the first two-3 items. Cuz her usefulness kinda declines even tho it really shouldn’t cuz she has strong cc and a decent burst... them being single target, or hard to reliably get off on priority targets becomes the issue

why do they make a super high skill ceiling/floor on her and make her fall off hard? how is that fair? (at least lee sin has displacements.)

PsyrixMar 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

why do they make a super high skill ceiling/floor on her and make her fall off hard? how is that fair? (at least lee sin has displacements.)

Don't get me wrong, she can still be used to great effect late-game, however her true power is early-midgame... A good one willl blaze like the morning star.

skills of luckMar 12, 20192 votes

closest by far is TF, global ganking ults with a stun and shit scaling

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=skills of luck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:52:36.863+0000)

closest by far is TF, global ganking ults with a stun and shit scaling

i thought his hard utility is his scaling? since rylais can be used due to his poke to add more cc in it. but yes his scaling outside his Q is bad since its damage loaded into that ability.

3TWarriorMar 12, 20191 votes

unfortunately no, his crowd control is risky to use and his damage output is the lowest of all mages barring maybe an inexperienced ryze

he has low cooldowns, but other mages have more than one effective offensive ability in teamfight situations

xDogMeatxMar 13, 20191 votes

oh.

Princess NunuMar 12, 20191 votes

i would say lb...

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Princess Nunu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:33:58.359+0000)

i would say lb...

Leblanc ?

Princess NunuMar 12, 20191 votes

yeah lb is short of le blanc

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Princess Nunu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:39:23.555+0000)

yeah lb is short of le blanc

i mean why Leblanc falls off hard.

Warlord RhinarkMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Princess Nunu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:33:58.359+0000)

i would say lb...

Except LeBlanc doesn't fall off, she snowballs hard.

EedatMar 12, 20192 votes

LB for sure falls off. Getting insanely fed and snowballing early also applies to Pantheon as well as LB

PsyrixMar 13, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:52:19.372+0000)

Except LeBlanc doesn't fall off, she snowballs hard.

LB is supposed to fall off, she doesn’t really excel at teamfights (which the late game largely comprises of). If she snowballs hard then Yh, she’s gonna do fine... as with every champ... but if the other team does catchup in gold and XP, Yh she does fall off.

NemeBroMar 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2019-03-12T20:52:19.372+0000)

Except LeBlanc doesn't fall off, she snowballs hard.

If you think the latter contradicts the former you don't know anything about this game.

Warlord RhinarkMar 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If you think the latter contradicts the former you don't know anything about this game.

I didn't state that it does, I just stated she doesn't fall off to the extent that people seem to believe that she does.

OleandervineMar 12, 20191 votes

I'm not sure Pantheon is a standard you should be looking for. I'm pretty sure Riot is not a fan of how severely he falls off late game, and probably will end up being something that is addressed should waffle stompers ever get a VGU.

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure Pantheon is a standard you should be looking for. I'm pretty sure Riot is not a fan of how severely he falls off late game, and probably will end up being something that is addressed should waffle stompers ever get a VGU.

i mean the AP champion that falls off like how pantheon works.

OleandervineMar 12, 20191 votes

{quoted}

i mean the AP champion that falls off like how pantheon works.

Like I said, Pantheon's design is an old design, and one that has left him in a weird spot. His kit has a sharp decline late game, too sharp, and I don't think it's something Riot has sought to duplicate. I think the way his kit flows is probably something they've learned not to repeat, and will probably be worked out of his kit if he gets a VGU.

My point is that you probably won't be finding a mage who falls off like Pantheon because Riot has purposefully tried to avoid that kind of kit design.

Sona PingMar 12, 20191 votes

Teemo?

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-12T21:21:32.099+0000)

Teemo?

possibly... after torment/deathcap his damage is limited somewhat after all thats the best combination in his buying priority (mushroom wise) he has respectable damage though put in ludans to add in that extra ap scaling on shroom explosion.

Sona PingMar 12, 20191 votes

Champion can be a harrassing lane bully that can exploit and easily all in some match-ups but falls off as the game goes on, partly due to a specialized, non-attack, ultimate, and can start to lose against those he was strong against and so then goes on to try to contribute to the team's effort in more limited ways but can be effective like a strong single target cc?

xDogMeatxMar 12, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YQkFFPTj,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2019-03-12T22:30:16.862+0000)

Champion can be a harrassing lane bully that can exploit and easily all in some match-ups but falls off as the game goes on, partly due to a specialized, non-attack, ultimate, and can start to lose against those he was strong against and so then goes on to try to contribute to the team's effort in more limited ways but can be effective like a strong single target cc?

hes a vision type champ that specializes in seeing enemies before they reach important objective points or just flat out chunk them or just stop them scurrying off.

Sire HippingtonMar 12, 20191 votes

Karma , her best bet is to transition into a support also, Lulu if she still was played as sololaner Nidalee for jungle

Also, the main issue for falling off usually isn't lack of scaleings but haveing a kit that works well in small scale fights but badly in full scale teamfights. Pants Q+E has nearly the same ad-ratio as Talons full combo, but due to the lowish mobillity and the channle time on E, he has a hard time applying it at the right target in a 5v5.

macspamMar 12, 20191 votes

Fiddlesticks . The E base damage hurts a lot in lane but the scaling is not very good.

xDogMeatxMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted}

. The E base damage hurts a lot in lane but the scaling is not very good.

thats true i seen the E ratios

taleofsonataMar 13, 20191 votes

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