why isnt armor reworked???

xDogMeatx·Aug 24, 2019·20 votes·10,632 views

having over 3.9k hp with chogath 187 armor (yes i checked before the game ended) dies in 5 seconds. vs all ad types.

isnt cho made to be a tanky/juggernaut champ?

besides him ofc armor needs the "every one point of armor is 1 point % of effective hp" into "3% of effective hp" cuz its pretty stupid MR is super effective while armor is flat out dumb vs ad comps.

i know armor is important but why buy it (besides kench/morde since they can armor/shield themselves in some way) when AP/AD form can tank just as much maybe you can at least kill your AD enemies.

58 Comments

JackMcCarryAug 24, 20199 votes

While i agree damage is too strong, in that game you had: item 3742 item 3027 item 3047 , and were building further AP before the game ended, so only 1 major armor item and boots, with a health item. Enemy team had 2 adcs, 1 of them kai'sa who does mixed damage ( and is too strong at the moment IMO) and a Xin who deals good DPS. 5 seconds against a team with 2 marksmen with 4 completed items (Xayah had item 3031 item 3046 item 3508 item 3094 ) is quite a lot to tank for Cho'gath who has no real teamfight tanking abilities, he's more of a specialist rather than an actual Juggernaut if i recall correctly.

Again, agree with your point to an extent, but your specific case isnt really a good example.

xDogMeatxAug 24, 20192 votes

actually i gave up on my full armor build after building glacial shroud yes i did look at my armor lvls after the game ended 187 armor. i had conditioning before selling i had 207. whats a specialist exactly? is he the only unique in that role? 207 when i died is basically 2 lifebars of effective health theres a video evidence on stacking armor/MR.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20192 votes

"I was building armor but stopped when the first item and boots weren't enough".

Only having around 200 is absolutely pathetic against a full AD team as a tank. The issue isn't armor, it's the fact that you built half of what you should have.

You didn't even consider item 3110 despite the fact that they had 3 AS-based champions. Not a single item 3143 or a item 3075 either. You didn't have item 3194 to deal with Kai'sa's passive either.

You were building like an off-brand Singed. What the fuck were you even going to do with item 1052 item 1026 ?

You built like absolute shit. This isn't armor versus AD, this is you not knowing what items to buy.

xDogMeatxAug 25, 20195 votes

i gave up building armor at that point if im gonna die i might as well die a mage instead of a juggernaut that cant reach or/and disrupt the targets. i realized how building tanky was stupid if the enemy is being a coward and kiting me. ill play their game and kite back with my W/Q. why build a vs AD if your gonna die anyways by not reaching your target. btw i was buying ludens echo. thought for a second on selling my deadmans to complete it but i needed the movespeed to kite them. who needs a frontline vs all AD comp (excluding rammus) if they are all AD you might as well start inting into their team cuz thats what i see if a tank champ does vs all AD.

i mean kaisa or whoever has great early game top lane as ranged should logically fall off since their early is god. i dont care if they are hyperscalers god late they should fall off even though they have a god lategame since the bully/burst is real. it doesnt make sense to say that but its true anyone who is ranged should fall off late as payback for giving the opponent anti fun time.

Z3SIeeperAug 25, 20192 votes

This is why Cho'Gath's have been taking Glacial Augment and rushing GLP.

https://u.gg/lol/champions/chogath/build

xDogMeatxAug 25, 20191 votes

that sounds awesome i should try it. im mainly using recommended build on chogath. maybe trying glacial build will help alot here.

Hi im 12Aug 25, 20191 votes

look at this dude telling people to consider frozen heart and thornmail lmao

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20191 votes

I....I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

JackMcCarryAug 25, 20194 votes

In the end of the day, you had 1 armor item vs 5 AD players, to make it worse item 3742 has one of the more "offensive" passives, when other armor items like item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 give better armor and great passives to further reduce the DPS of your enemies, Xayah had 100% crit chance, randuins would reduce her every auto attack by 20%, ninja tabi by 10%, together Xayah would do 30% less AA damage JUST from your passives, not including the 15% AS reduction aswell.

Imagine having item 3143 and item 3110 , Xin, Xayah and Kai'sa (all who rely on spamming auto attacks) would do 10% to 30% less AA damage ( depending on if they crit) and will have their attack speed reduced by 30% ! that's almost enough to reduce all the attack speed from item 3006 .

whats a specialist exactly? is he the only unique in that role?

No, there are others like him, GP for example, or Graves, fiddle, etc... it's champions who dont really fit any archetype, Cho'gath is really slow like a Juggernaut, but has no real sustain or defensive steroids, he plays like a mage with the kit of a tank. From the wiki: "Specialists are a diverse group of champions who do not "fit into a neat little box" in regards to other class/subclass specifications."

When i go top i sometimes go Ornn myself, i dont even go against full AD, but if i do, i can tank for a long time, but i have to play it well, being tank isnt just about standing there taking damage, if you spread your CC, have back up from your team and build right, you can tank a LOT more than 5 seconds in team fights, but it would be silly to think a Cho'gath can tank for more than 5 seconds with only item 3047 and item 3742 as his defensive items.

Z3SIeeperAug 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Imagine having and , Xin, Xayah and Kai'sa (all who rely on spamming auto attacks) would do 10% to 30% less AA damage ( depending on if they crit) and will have their attack speed reduced by 30% ! that's almost enough to reduce all the attack speed from .

Just pointing out that attack speed slows apply to total attack speed (it's not negative bonus AS, it's negative total AS).

So 1.0 AS + 35% from boots would be 1.35. A 30% attack speed slow would bring it down to 0.945 (way more than the boots give).

Essentially a 30% attack speed slow means 30% less base AS and 30% less bonus AS from all sources.

PxerkzaAug 24, 20198 votes

tanks in general suck atm

bruisers way outperform tanks except in initiation

but they definitely don't do the job of a tank properly atm

xDogMeatxAug 24, 20193 votes

tanks themselves as a identity i see their purpose its armor though that sucks unless your kench or morde (i used them).

Get Ogre HereAug 24, 20198 votes

Dude I can't give a perspective but all I know is that if I'm playing Talon and the enemy laner (no matter how squishy they are) can get 1-2 cloth armors and my kill pressure is reduced to 0 xd

Probably just a thing for AD assassins in general, so like I said, this isn't much of a perspective as much as it is an anecdotal observation.

I hope if they buff armor they don't make it too much stronger vs AD assassins.

AlienPrimateAug 25, 20196 votes

Armor is fine. People are just morons who think they can tank 5 ad's in a 1v5 with 2 armor items. You can't and shouldn't be able to tank for more than 5 seconds with 5 people focusing you. You should be able to easily tank 2 people for 10+ seconds though if you have spent as much gold on armor as they have ad and that is only flat ad without items like black cleaver and last whisper.

Pandemic PunchAug 25, 20195 votes

Imagine dying in 2.5 seconds to two AD champions when you have 860 armor and 4k health as Malphite

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20192 votes

You got a source on that actually happening?

iamthegoatofwarAug 25, 20192 votes

I'm trying to think on how that would happen...vayne was probably involved...maybe someone else with stupid DPS like yi? Not to mention I think the 860 thing is counting malphites passive being up which when popped drops down to like 1/3 or something? I ain't been playing much so I dunno the exact numbers on that one. But a full stacked vayne level 18 and a yi same with rage blade? Yha I could probably see malphite getting destroyed at that point.

also for yi lethal tempo or conq would further drive the DPS through the roof.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20193 votes

It'd have to be a Yi and Vayne, both with lethal tempo, rageblade, BorK, and Lord Dominik's, one might have to have a BC, and Malph would have to be behind them and not have a single AS-slowing item.

So, yes, possible. But incredibly situational and dependent on Malph not knowing how to press buttons.

ProfDrDeathAug 25, 20192 votes

Plot twist: The two AD champions were Kai'Sa and Corki.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20192 votes

That's...Somewhat believable. I don't think it'd be Corki, tho, he has no %hp damage to cut through that. I don't think he has the damage needed anyways.

I might believe something like a Nasus+Kai'sa, since Nasus could shred his armor with E and generally melt through Malphite through sheer damage. Kindred, maybe, with a perfectly-timed E and black cleaver?

Some combination of Kai'sa, Vayne, and Yi is most likely, though, since all 3 could bypass his armor, 2 of the 3 innately have %hp damage, and all 3 have access to item 3153 .

Either way, we're looking at a very small set of champions who built for this and are designed with good tank-killing capabilities and armor bypassing. Not average AD champions at all.

xDogMeatxAug 25, 20191 votes

great thing about malphite he functions like a better specialist in teamfights over chogath since his ult gives great mobility/aoe and his E/W scales off of armor now add in transcendence/aftershock with passive turned on and you got a god.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 25, 20195 votes

You got actual evidence of that?

KazekibaAug 24, 20194 votes

5 seconds is a pretty long time given that ADCs can drop 7-8 attacks in that time frame, not to mention abilities. Armor and MR use the exact same calculations, so MR is just as strong as Armor, by raw stats alone. Armor is actually stronger, since every champion in the game and all sources of damage except Gromp and fountains deal physical damage.

overpoweredscrubAug 24, 20194 votes

yeah armor is basically useless. I could buy ninja tabi, thornmail and have more than 100 armor which means 50+ physical damage reduction, yet still die in 5 seconds. The damage chart will say most of the damage was physical. Armor is basically useless at the moment. But the bigger problem would be that if they made armor useful like it was during the tank meta, then we would have tank meta again. Riot needs to make tanks durable like they used to be, but nerf the damage someone building tanky would dish out. aka tank akali, tank fizz, tank yasuo. They shouldn't nerf the champs because that's not the problem, it's the items. If tank items make a champ durable, it doesn't reduce their damage. I think if someone is building tanky, they aren't building tanky to deal more damage, they are building tanky to not die in 5 seconds. So to balance someone being hard to kill, that person's damage output should be irrelevant imo.

lilpokfluf3Aug 25, 20192 votes

I think the biggest issue tanks have is active items don’t exist the way damage items exist. Sure you have passive grev wounds but then what you’re just supposed to hope the adc hits you?

The reason tanks aren’t effective is because there aren’t reliable ways to mitigate damage from your team. Riot needs to quit buffing tanks damage and just figure out how to lower team wide dps if a tank is on the team while also keeping damage focused junglers viable.

Currently they’ve taken the easiest path and just keep buffing tank damage to keep up with carry damage, let’s hope they change it eventually.

overpoweredscrubAug 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I think the biggest issue tanks have is active items don’t exist the way damage items exist. Sure you have passive grev wounds but then what you’re just supposed to hope the adc hits you?

The reason tanks aren’t effective is because there aren’t reliable ways to mitigate damage from your team. Riot needs to quit buffing tanks damage and just figure out how to lower team wide dps if a tank is on the team while also keeping damage focused junglers viable.

Currently they’ve taken the easiest path and just keep buffing tank damage to keep up with carry damage, let’s hope they change it eventually.

yeah definitely a bad idea what they did. Im not a fan of tanks, juggernauts, bruisers whatever you wanna call it, not a fan of a champ being tanky and dealing high damage to squishies. But I do believe tanks, juggernauts bruisers etc, should be durable if they are going tanky. If I going tanky, it's because I want to not die in 5 seconds, not because I want to do more damage.

GayrensTariAug 25, 20193 votes

XDDD OMG enhance all armors and you don't need to doge ever fun fun

grimrookzeroAug 25, 20192 votes

umm kid 80% of the game is dont dodge just dash and blow up

GayrensTariAug 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

umm kid 80% of the game is dont dodge just dash and blow up

That is good...for someone lag a lot.

Gamer GalladeAug 25, 20193 votes

armor is not really the issue, its kinda fine.

on the other hand, Magic resist needs a complete overhaul. they are far weaker compared to their armor counterparts and doesnt help that AP are too strong at the moment too.

HeretusAug 25, 20194 votes

destroy the 99.9% HP of any AD and watch him lifesteal 100% within 2 seconds , deal the same against any magic user, watch them run to base.

Support PositionAug 25, 20193 votes

I've learned if you wanna be tanky you need to drop the last number in your hp.

For lets say Cho for instance had 3000 hp. In turn you would need 300 armour/mr

So in this case cho would have needed 390 armour to actually nullify the damage and not pop like a balloon.

item 3047 item 3075 item 3742 item 3143 item 3068 item 3110 Would have needed something like this.

Which now that i look at it. Is fucking stupid.

WTBeGirl100EUhrAug 25, 20193 votes

187 armour is what, 1 armour item + tabi? CLEARLY that should allow you to be immortal against physical damage.

JuiceBoxPAug 25, 20192 votes

in what world 187 is one item and tabi, tell me?

WTBeGirl100EUhrAug 25, 20193 votes

Cho'gath naturally has 97 armour. Tabi is 25, another armour item is ~60. 182, +5 from the rune for 187 exactly.

So, you know, this world.

EDIT: If you find the match history he only has Deadman's Plate and Tabi. Gee, wow, it's 1 armour item + tabi. Amazing!

RadeticDrawsAug 25, 20192 votes

Ever since they meddled with marksman class and their items the armor became less effective They however didn't fuck up with mage itemization so hard because as you said, mr still kinda works against them But mage itemization in general needs more creativity and freedom, and not locked to Ludens>Void>Rabadons Very few mages use different builds

You know how armor will become effective again? By either buffing the armor items by a double since after marksman itemization changes they became double bad or Remove/revert rageblade to it's first state, nerf Vayne W by at least 30%, and revert Yi Q changes

Other than that they should work on the scalings because it doesn't make sense for let's say Jax to scale so good with both AD and AP

Lock the champion to one type of damage A very few should do mixed damage

xDogMeatxAug 25, 20191 votes

vayne needs her W damage reduced to 8% per proc max while rageblade needs a revert but increase its pricing to compensate as well as increased stats a bit.

RadeticDrawsAug 25, 20191 votes

well by 30% percent i ment like 30% away of 14 8% is what I was thinking too Rageblade if increased in price will just be delaying the inevitable The item DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT have a place in the marksman itemization

That shit should work in TFT but not in SR

PiggyTheAstroAug 25, 20192 votes

187 armour against full AD team? I checked your match history, only armour you built was item 3742 item 3047 . You had 3 items (including boots) while the enemy team had 6. Come back when you have at least 300 armor.

DragonSheaAug 25, 20192 votes

Cuz Riot has gotten sick of people complaining and decided to make the game their own way.

JuiceBoxPAug 25, 20192 votes

The major reason that MR is super effective is because magic penetration is legit garbage. Lets compare. Magicpen item 3020 item 3165 item 3135

Armorpen item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3036 item 3033 item 3124 item 3071

Can you see the difference? There are much better options for armor penetration and a lot of champions stack them.

WTBeGirl100EUhrAug 25, 20191 votes

Flat pen is bad against building armour. You get less and less of a damage increase from building lethality items the more armour your opponent has. The reality is that only BC, Guinsoo (which also gives MPen but nice bias), Last Whisper variants and Void are the only ones relevant to stacking resists.

Void vs BC/LW, since you can't stack LW items. Also, BC and LW stack really poorly. You almost never want to build both and it's basically only effective against Malphite/Rammus.

foristAug 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

The major reason that MR is super effective is because magic penetration is legit garbage. Lets compare. Magicpen

Armorpen

Can you see the difference? There are much better options for armor penetration and a lot of champions stack them.

item 3124 applies both armor pen and magic pen btw.

JuiceBoxPAug 25, 20192 votes

Yes, but no mage actually uses it. It is made for adcs who have both ad and magic damage in their kit.

foristAug 26, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but no mage actually uses it. It is made for adcs who have both ad and magic damage in their kit.

If you're sorting it by class then you should separate lethality from arpen. Ad assassins don't build guinsoo's and adc's don't build lethality / cleaver.

AckelopeAug 26, 20192 votes

with exceptions, of course. MF and Lucian have both been known to dabble in lethality and cleaver from time to time.

foristAug 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

with exceptions, of course. MF and Lucian have both been known to dabble in lethality and cleaver from time to time.

Probably should recognize fringe cases for guinsoo's then, such: as kayle and twisted fate (and formerly on-hit neeko).

JuiceBoxPAug 26, 20191 votes

It doesn't matter. Each class can build what ever they want, but as a whole, each class has a lot of armor pen options available to them.

A lot of champions build black clever which shreds 24% armor. Now every one in the team does more damage regardless if they got pen or not. Magic pen just doesn't work like this.

foristAug 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't matter. Each class can build what ever they want, but as a whole, each class has a lot of armor pen options available to them.

A lot of champions build black clever which shreds 24% armor. Now every one in the team does more damage regardless if they got pen or not. Magic pen just doesn't work like this.

Probably because attack damage and magic damage scale differently. If you're looking for a substitute black cleaver for magic damage try item 3001 . It doesn't do pen but it does +15% all magic damage sources.

crippler38Aug 25, 20192 votes

I had 6k hp and over 150 armor as Cho'Gath with a spirit visage and I died in under three seconds from just brand and yasuo (also two turrets to add on 500 more damage).

It was super late in the game but I was sad.