Now that assassins have been nerfed into the gutter people can see that ADCs are far worse. we need champions that can check them, and right now there arnt many that can do that after the "class update" of assassins. to top this all off, crit builds were buffed...
makkii25 votesPeople keep using adc's being strong as a justification to say assasins should have never been nerfed, saying that they were the counter. when the real reason adc are so strong is because 1. instead of being lategame champs adc's now hit their stride at mid game and 2. The tank update hit tanks too hard. It used to be that tanks not only protected their backline, they were mainly the ones responsible for engaging on outta position adc's to set them up for the team to kill. Nowadays adc's chunk tanks so hard that provided they arent fed, by the time they get up to what was once considered an "out of position" adc, half their health is gone, and thats if they dont have peel.
Zerenza6 votesFair point fair point, but the thing is that Assassins have been getting nerfed since the assassin update, buffs to ADC's, Supports, Changes to their itemization+Assassin nerfs is what caused it to get this bad, along with what you said. The thing is that, realistically speaking, an assassin's job is to kill an ADC who's out of position/alone. That's what their made for, tanks weren't made for it, their job is to engage on a whole team, not just the ADC. An assassins job is to pick off a key target and remove them from the fight, thing is they can't do that with all the buffs that Supports and ADC's have obtained.
Don't get me wrong, if a tank like Sejuanni catches an ADC out of position and the whole team follows up, that dudes dead. An assassin however isn't supposed to need that CC, he isn't supposed to have to have his entire team back him up, and he certainly shouldnt have to worry about the ADC one shotting him back. Not to mention, most if not all of the assassins nerfs have been to ranged champions abusing their items. When lethality was strong, Zed and Talon were too, but they weren't NEARLY as strong as Lucian, Miss Fortune, Jhin, Caitlynn, Draven or Varus at the time who eventually got lethality nerfed and subsequently severely hurt all AD Assassin itemization.
The Yetii Rider2 votesTanks are supposed to be killed by ADCs. Who else do they die to? They ignore the burst of mages and assassins. They die to fighters, skirmishers and marksmen who have extended DPS.
makkii2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-07-04T12:59:58.712+0000)
Tanks are supposed to be killed by ADCs. Who else do they die to? They ignore the burst of mages and assassins. They die to fighters, skirmishers and marksmen who have extended DPS.
Yeah maybe over a sustained 1v1 with lifesteal and anti tank items like botrk, not chunking them down below 50% hp from the point the tank starts engaging to the point where the tank is in melee range.
Tanks are supposed to protect and engage, when adc's alone are deleting most of their health, how the hell are we supposed to engage on a team?
Tanks sole purpose right now is to peel for the adc and no one else, and the engage portion of our job has been split evenly between the other players on the team.
It sucks for us, but its also terrible for everyone else, because theres no such thing as a front line anymore so adc's just tear through everything.
The Yetii Rider2 votesThat's...not what's happening?
It takes around eight or nine autos for a carry to kill a tank. Malphite, Sejuani, Rammus, Zac, Leona, Alistar, Tahm Kench and Nautilus all have engages that are nearly immediate. You will be in the thick of things way before you hit 50% health.
makkii2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T14:29:13.441+0000)
That's...not what's happening?
It takes around eight or nine autos for a carry to kill a tank. Malphite, Sejuani, Rammus, Zac, Leona, Alistar, Tahm Kench and Nautilus all have engages that are nearly immediate. You will be in the thick of things way before you hit 50% health.
So with a 2.0 attack speed thats 50% in two seconds flat, thats also disregarding more than half the adc lineup has dashes and all have fllash, and that once those tanks blow those cd's they dont have a second set to blow to do it all over again.
The Yetii Rider2 votesTwo seconds is a long freaking time, especially when you have to account for the 1-2 seconds the ADC won't be able to attack because they're being CC chained by the tank who initiated and his team.
makkii3 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-04T14:54:29.205+0000)
Two seconds is a long freaking time, especially when you have to account for the 1-2 seconds the ADC won't be able to attack because they're being CC chained by the tank who initiated and his team.
How is the adc gunna be chain cc'd if they avoid the initiaton with dash/flash like i said? Sure there are point and click cc's but amidst their whole team being behind them being chain cc'd is unlikely considering their team has cc of their own.
Once upon a time, adc's were relatively immobile and they needed to farm for damn near 30 minutes, as a reward they would get great lategame scaling for teamfights.
Now their items are cheaper and better, and the other roles items are weaker, so they only need to farm for 15 minutes to be relevant, they are as mobile as any other class, but they havent sacrificed an iota of scaling.
We have all these motherfuckers out here not named vayne soloing every dude that looks at them funny, which was never the purpose of adc's
Eternal7911 votesNot sure how much it would help, but what if they nerfed the mobility on marksmen like Cait, Lucian, Vayne, Kalista and Tristana?
ChingChongWong1 votesHorrible idea tbh. None of these adcs are strong/op except Cait. Also, the mobility is not the problem. Some of them need them to be relevant (Lucian, Kalista, Vayne)They just get their powerspikes too early since the buffs of crit items...
Anags2 votesNautilus is one of the worst champs in the game and kench isn't played foe engage but so that he can just cock block damage on one of his carries. His ult is used as a flank and he has no real engage.
Neither one of those champs belongs in your comment
The Yetii Rider1 votesNautilus is great. 4 CCs in 5 abilities, including point and click ranged CC.
Noblewind1 votesBeen saying this for a long time. ADCs get far too much of a power spike from just 2 items. DD/Draven issues aside, Runaans is the biggest issue IMO. It was healthier when ADCs were mostly single target damage dealers with situational AOE
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesi agree for most... but tank. Tank issue is ur #1.
ZT Xperimentor4 votesBeen a problem for the last couple years, glad to see some people coming to their senses.
I've mentioned it before, but they've been buffed in every class 'update' in some way; while every other class update has driven people from their mains.
AirKingNeo8 votesADCs have only been a problem because they've kept an absurd late game and keep needing early game buffs, only for their early game to be nerfed. We're just suck in a limbo where ADCs are good early or shit early, and they're broken when they're good early.
We're in a perfect state where we can make ADCs stay less expensive build wise (with current IE and ER costs) and perhaps reduce the power of those items (IE, ER) to prevent absurd late game and keep good early game.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesThat's also from snowballing in general; weaker towers, more valuable minions, permanent scaling buffs via dragon, ext. What farms faster? Damage. What has riot been buffing nearly every patch for the past couple years? Damage. It's no surprise that's it's been happening, however it's frustrating riot repeatedly turns a blind eye to this degenerate game design.
AirKingNeo3 votesI keep saying it, but no really hears it.
Nerf Infinity Edge to 235% critical damage (from 250%). Lower the cost by 150. (Maybe lose 5 AD too?)
Rework Essence Reaver. Caulfield's Warhammer (1100) + Pickaxe (875) + Cloak of Agility (800) + 125 Gold, total 2900 Gold. Stats: 55 AD, 20% Cooldown Reduction, 20% critical strike chance, same passive. 111% Gold Efficient.
Yes, I know Death's Dance is a problem as well as a few support items. However, nerfing those doesn't stop ADCs from doing absurd damage later into the game (and thus draintanking with it). However, if you make ADC's early game suck, we just go back to same fucking thing that's been this entire 2 years, which isn't fun either. The solution is to cut late game power, so they can keep being decent early in the game. Less DPS from IE also means less draintanking, so any healing from this point on means you buy Executioner's/Morello. Essence Reaver change just keeps ADCs from scaling to hard with Cooldown Reduction, but turns it into an early game item, but this verion might need 5 AD. I am not entirely sure.
Also Bloodthirster might need -3% lifesteal, -5 AD, and reduced cost too, but that's not entirely related to the problem.
Laetitian1 votesIn high Elo, ADCs are meant to be the reason why lategame teamfights aren't just won by who has the meatier frontline. I really think it's just time to limit their early game impact again. That way, the game isn't decided by which team focuses botlane harder, getting their carry the first item earlier.
AirKingNeo1 votesIn high elo, ADCs decide late game fights right now. That's just the meta.
EmperorPengu2 votesThe new thornmail changes should put them down a peg
VoraciousX2 votesThe new thornmail changes should put them down a peg
Actually the thornmail slows their attack speed so they won't feel it as much likely because their attack speed will be slowed so the other threats to the tanks that are fighting them will be dealing more damage than the ADC trying to fight them, which will make ADCs more likely to survive, unless someone jumps on them while they have grievous wounds AAing the tank.
If you're not pumping out as many attacks on the tank, you're not taking as much damage against the thornmail. New thornmail is actually a nerf overall minus the grievous wounds(it's even 25 less armor).
EmperorPengu4 votesActually the thornmail slows their attack speed so they won't feel it as much likely because their attack speed will be slowed so the other threats to the tanks that are fighting them will be dealing more damage than the ADC trying to fight them, which will make ADCs more likely to survive, unless someone jumps on them while they have grievous wounds AAing the tank.
If you're not pumping out as many attacks on the tank, you're not taking as much damage against the thornmail. New thornmail is actually a nerf overall minus the grievous wounds(it's even 25 less armor).
True but them attacking slower means the shread through your health slower
King of Demons4 votesIf you're not pumping out as many attacks that means the tank (or anybody else for a few seconds if the person switches target) will survive longer. At the same time they will also lifesteal less. This change is massive. Especially the Bramble Vest part of it will be huge. The item is insanely cost efficient and counters champions like Lucian very hard. I predict that it will become the choice item against Lucian and even heal spamming supports, because the punishment for attacking + the armor is worth more than having Executioner's Calling and its poor stat efficiency.
So yeah, this thing is actually huge.
VoraciousX2 votes[{quoted}](name=Taku of Rivia,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-07-04T04:36:02.584+0000)
If you're not pumping out as many attacks that means the tank (or anybody else for a few seconds if the person switches target) will survive longer. At the same time they will also lifesteal less. This change is massive. Especially the Bramble Vest part of it will be huge. The item is insanely cost efficient and counters champions like Lucian very hard. I predict that it will become the choice item against Lucian and even heal spamming supports, because the punishment for attacking + the armor is worth more than having Executioner's Calling and its poor stat efficiency.
So yeah, this thing is actually huge.
It's a nerf overall.
Live Thornmail: Being hit by a basic attack reflects magic damage back to the attacker for 25% of your bonus armor + 15% of incoming damage. 100 armor.
PBE Thornmail: 250 health, 75 Armor, Being hit by a basic attack reflects magic damage back to the attacker equal to 10% of your bonus armor + 25, inflicting grievous wounds for 1 second. When hit by basic attacks, slows the attacker's attack speed by 15% for 1 second.
Let's take a 500 damage auto with 20% lifesteal vs thornmail. Say you have 70 armor + the 100 from current thornmail. That's 330 damage, you heal back about 66 and take 74 damage with JUST thornmail. So each attack you're dealing 330 damage and taking 8 damage.
Now PBE thornmail. You have 145 armor, so you deal about 355 damage, heal back about 43 and take 33 damage. Keep in mind I did apply grievous wounds. You'll be healing back 60% of 20% of 355. 20% of 355 is 71, 60% of 71 is 42.6(43). So each attack you're doing 355 damage and healing back 10 health.
You can account for the tank having more health but you're still healing back more than you're taking without even building MR. The difference just gets bigger the more armor you add.
The bramble vest might be good for early game, but the PBE thornmail is terribly worse than the live one, except for situations where the ADC is attacking the tank while the rest of the tank's team is within attacking distance, which shouldn't happen. The Cold Steel passive alone is kind of a nerf because as a thornmail user you WANT the ADC to attack you fast.
If they want Grievous Wounds to be more available they shouldn't have removed it from MF. Also they could easily make Morellonomicon more niche and make it so that it gives grievous wounds with any magic damage you deal instead of having that barrier of 35% health. It's already one of those mid lane items that almost every mid laner rushes and crowding out other options. They could stand to lower it's AP and give it grievous wounds always or at least at like a 75% health barrier so they can't lifesteal back up before you even get them down to 35%. Usually if you can get them down that low you can straight up kill them.
True but them attacking slower means the shread through your health slower
Thornmail is that item where you're supposed to make them shred through their own health by attacking you. Not where they shred through your health regardless. To beat current thornmail you pretty much have to have a mercurial, a bork or bloodthirster, and a maw. At least I did as Xayah vs Rammus. With a Thornmail they barely are supposed to deal damage to you, where they deal more to themselves. With these changes that won't be the case and it's a nerf.
The Yetii Rider1 votesThat's not how armor works. You don't subtract armor from the damage dealt.
The Cold Steel passive and the extra health help you survive. Your team should be the one killing the ADCs, the entire point of the tank update is to make tanks deal less damage in exchange for more survivability. It's not a nerf, it changes how the item is used.
VoraciousX1 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=00000000000100010000,timestamp=2017-07-04T13:05:13.934+0000)
That's not how armor works. You don't subtract armor from the damage dealt.
The Cold Steel passive and the extra health help you survive. Your team should be the one killing the ADCs, the entire point of the tank update is to make tanks deal less damage in exchange for more survivability. It's not a nerf, it changes how the item is used.
It's a nerf any way you look at it. 250 extra health for a weaker item overall. It doesn't matter if that's how armor works or not, either way the point still stands. It's less overall, you could use any formula to determine damage dealt but the damage would still be stronger vs PBE thornmail and they'd still be lifestealing more than if they would vs live thornmail. Also, what ADC is gonna sit there auto attacking a tank when everyone else in their team is right in their face? You only attack the tank if the tank is the only one near you, so unless the tank jumped on the ADC and even then you wouldn't be able to auto attack the tank because of the CC train that is likely to follow.
Heck I don't even think Rammus(the main one who builds this item like practically every game) will want thornmail if it changes tbh considering how it's less armor and the cold steel passive will make them auto attack less during his taunt, but maybe that's what they want.
Mizaya2 votesADC damage is where it should be at. It's assassin damage that's lacking. Look to increase their damage or nerf defense, pls don't nerf damage for yet another class...
Critmaster Garen11 votesADC damage is where it should be at.
no? not for their survivability.
adc currently deal more damage than most of the other carry classes while being way too safe at the same time.
fighers, assassins, and mages have problems either bursting them out or dpsing them down when out of position due to all their fool proof items.
Mizaya6 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-04T01:54:11.765+0000)
no? not for their survivability.
adc currently deal more damage than most of the other carry classes while being way too safe at the same time.
fighers, assassins, and mages have problems either bursting them out or dpsing them down when out of position due to all their fool proof items.
ADC should deal most damage though? And they do, and typically sacrifice survivability for it. You don't see caits get PD second item, they get shiv + rfc so they can do the more damage. You don't see Twitch go PD 2nd item because he builds runaans so he can do more damage. But yeah, PD does get built by ADC sometimes, because it deserves to have a place in the game. If PD was some item that turned ADCs into literal god-mode, you would see it built on every single ADC, every single game, no? But you don't. Because damage for survivability trade-offs exist. Likewise, you won't see a DD on either of those ADCs in 95%+ of games, maybe in a game that goes super late, maybe.
Honestly, this whole point about defensive items making ADCs "unkillable god drain-tanks" is not only statistically nigh irrelevant, but also almost completely false in reality? Well, there is one exception, Draven, who I usually ban, but I ban no other ADC because they can't do the same thing Draven does.
Anyways, yeah, it is super frustrating to try to kill an ADC that is well protected by their team with an uncoordinated team , but like I said, too many damage nerfs across the board, needs to be looked at. But It's also frustrating to see the same exact posts complaining about "DD OP QQ DRAIN TANK QQ" and whatnot when you go look at high elo ADC builds and see nothing of the sort.
Divewing3 votes"Adcs should deal the most damage"
Can you define most damage?
Because right now ADC itemisation allows this fucking bitch 
to 3 shot people without needing the thing her kit was completely built around (true damage). On no planet will you ever find me agreeing that it's fine because ADCs should "deal the most damage".
ADCs should kill ALL things at a CONSISTENTLY MEDIUM PACE barring specific exceptions a la 
.
If you want, in terms of burst numbers, the highest damage, then I disagree with you completely and believe that should go to assassins and burst mages
Mizaya1 votes"Adcs should deal the most damage"
Can you define most damage?
Because right now ADC itemisation allows this fucking bitch
ADCs should kill ALL things at a CONSISTENTLY MEDIUM PACE barring specific exceptions a la
If you want, in terms of burst numbers, the highest damage, then I disagree with you completely and believe that should go to assassins and burst mages
No, they should kill the tank the fastest, actually second fastest behind melee DPS like Yi. They shouldn't and don't have highest burst, ever seen a fed Taliyah? There was a Taliyah that 100-0ed a cait in rift rivals this morning, literally full health to deleted in at most a tenth of a second. That's mathematically impossible for any ADC with autoattacks.
But yeah considering that Yi isn't played enough to really be considered, they should have basically the highest sustained damage. And even then there are AP carries like Cass that can match their damage late game anyways.
Eternal7911 votesYeah, only time I've seen a marksmen 100-0 someone that fast was when they were testing Jinx's W being able to crit... and dam that was funny to watch.
Critmaster Garen3 votesADC should deal most damage though? And they do, and typically sacrifice survivability for it.
not they shouldnt deal the msot damage and they sacrifice shit for it. because.
a) there are other carry classes in this game. theyre called marksmen and not adc. "adc" is an outdated term and riot changed it for good reason.
even when it comes to bot lane, meddler made his intention known to eventually increase diversity down there and allow mages to lane next to supports and then look into getting fighters into that position aswell.
currently the position of bot lane carry is the only one on the map that is occupid by a single class of champions. even the support role next to them is made up of a variety of mages, tanks, enchanters and sometimes even fighters and other marksmen.
the only type of duo lane carry weve seen so far was morde and ziggs. thats the entire extent of bot lane diversity in the last 6 years.
b) theyre gaining range for it. thats their survival mechanism and at the same time an offensive mechanism.
marksmen are NOT supposed to be the only carry you can play in this game. theyre not supposed to be the center of every teamcomp and theyre not supposed to be the most impactful class in this game.
there are even other types of lategame carries like 
Critmaster Garen3 votesAnyways, yeah, it is super frustrating to try to kill an ADC that is well protected by their team with an uncoordinated team , but like I said, too many damage nerfs across the board, needs to be looked at.
game damage as a whole needs to be tuned down. not just damage against marksmen. their own damage aswell.
chose between survivability, damage or range. you get 2 out of the 3.
you cant have everything and deal more damage than other carry classes while being safer. if you want to keep your current survivability, then youll need to accept that you shouldnt scale into lategame carries.
marksmen should not be the center of the game. its an archaic design that doesnt work due to the lack of drawbacks that other games have to compensate. like turn speeds in dota.
also, we have so many champions in this game, that carries are more diverse than marksmen alone.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesyeah dealing burst per second is legit*[zombie-brand-mindblown]*
Mizaya1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ryuumoku no koke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YLLVFdrt,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-07-04T17:13:22.619+0000)
yeah dealing burst per second is legit*[zombie-brand-mindblown]*
Well considering a Taliyah killed a cait in 0.1 sec earlier today in rift rivals, you would have to do 18000 damage per second to really be doing burst per second of a fed Taliyah. lol. Or remember that Rengar kill in 0.01 sec? 200000 damage per second to have that burst per second XD
Divewing3 votesActually it's the other way around.
You need to be able to delete ADCs in as little time as possible with as little counterplay as possible before their support shields them for 500% of their max hp as they lifesteal the rest in 3 auto attacks.
Burst like this is literally the only thing left that keeps ADCs from not completely overwhelming the entire game (they are stupidly close already)
KuroCaliber1 votesYou're exaggerating, I'm sorry, but no support ever can burst shield for even a 100% of an adc's health bar. I've done the calculations on another post concerning itemizing. If lifesteal is such an issue, then buy mortal reminder like assassins should be doing.
Divewing1 votesshielding for 500%
Pointing out I may be exaggerating was required...?
rtbf2216514122 votesCri builds were buffed you say?
Btw Rengar is considered a Diver now but if we go by this logic let us add...
AirKingNeo2 votesNone of those champions build crit.
rtbf2216514121 votesNone of those champions build crit.
Do I need to list the crit skills they have?
And Shaco doesn't build Crit? What?
CasterGilgamesh1 votesshaco is built ap a lot ....also what's your point listing champions with guaranteed crit in their spells?It still doesn't change that crit was buffed for Marksmen.
rtbf2216514121 votesshaco is built ap a lot ....also what's your point listing champions with guaranteed crit in their spells?It still doesn't change that crit was buffed for Marksmen.
Shaco is built AP?
That is only effective in Aram bud.
And IE gives affects him more than you think.
DemainaNyx2 votesThey can, that's the point.
Rengar gets a guaranteed crit out of ult. Shaco gets guaranteed crit on backstabs. And Talon has a crit multipler on his melee range Q.
I've had plenty of Rengars building IE + Shiv or RFC in my Silver games. Is it ideal? Probably not, but it's a strategy if crit is so busted.
Kai Guy2 votesThis is where a support meta should become really strong, but it wont as folks scorn the impact of the role.
Brain Errör 4041 votesIt's funny cause we are currently in the support meta where supports are literally the most annoying part about adcs atm...
rtbf2216514121 votesIt's funny cause we are currently in the support meta where supports are literally the most annoying part about adcs atm...
Yet we still can't carry stupid. We can, at most, carry one team mate only (Yet that team mate needs at least half a brain) while adcs can carry 3-4 idiots.
FireToa1 votesI wouldn't say all ADCs are a problem. The ones that come to my mind that really stand out are 
