If We Want Carries To Be Weaker Early Game...

Meep Man··14 votes·1,584 views

We must make them actually have to wait to get to their late game. How? Make them have to pay larger amounts of gold in order to get their items. Let us take a look at the items here:

Standard/Example Full Support Build- item 3158 item 2301 item 3107 item 3504 item 3174 item 3050 item 2055 (about 6 lets say) Total Cost: 12300 Gold

Standard/Example Full ADC Build- item 3006 item 3031 item 3087 item 3085 item 3026 item 3072 Total Cost: 15800 Gold

A mere 3500 more gold is what separates Supports from ADCs in League of Legends. Now, bare with me here, but allow me to make the same difference between a Support and a Carry in Dota 2. I know the games have their differences and that gold income is a little different in that game, but let's just look at the difference:

Dota Support Build- Guardian Greeves Pipe of Insight Spirit Vessel Aether Lens Glimmer Cape Eul's Scepter of Divinity Plus some consumables like Wards, Smokes, etc. ~20025 Gold

Dota Carry Build- Daedalus Boots of Travel Silver Edge Desolator Eye of Skadi Mjollnir Moon Shard Plus maybe a tiny number of Wards (lets say they bought 3 wards for a total of 240 extra) ~32210 Gold

In Dota 2, the difference between a Support and a Carry is about 12185 Gold. The difference between a Carry in LoL and in Dota 2 between their Support is huge. An ADC is LoL is at most about 1 large item in gold difference apart from their Support in total gold usage at full build. A Carry in Dota 2 is about 2-3 large items apart in gold difference from their Support. As someone who plays both games, the amount of effort between how much the Carry in each game has to farm is extreme. Carries in Dota 2 commonly have to gorge on every access of gold income on the map if they want to REALLY accelerate themselves to late game. ADCs in LoL usually just have to fairly casually farm and roam with their team to get enough farm. I'm not saying Dota 2 is a better game. It DOES have it's faults and many at that. However, in this aspect, I must say it performs much better.

TL;DR ADCs in League of Legends get off too easy when it comes to how easily they can obtain a full build in comparison to their Support. For a class that is supposed to be a late game class, they are commonly on just the same power level of other classes throughout the entire game unless the character is nerfed to the ground early game, which is rarely the case. The gold cost on their items should be increased if Riot wants to continue to advertise ADCs as a late game, scaling class.

38 Comments

Eedat10 votes

Your comparison to DotA is intentionally misleading. 1 gold in DotA =/= 1 gold in LoL. Saying the difference is 12000 gold is misleading. You also have to just completely ignore how gold generation works in both games. In LoL supports get tons of free gold from support items and in DotA you earn relatively less gold passively and more for last hitting.

This is apples to oranges to the extreme with a strong emphasis on bogus comparisons

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yeah, I was going to say this.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

If someone really wanted to put in the work, they could calculate average income and match it to average item/stat value, then use that to build an approximation of gold values that could be compared reasonably.

Would be interesting to see. As a avid Steam avoider, I'm not really in a position to do this though. :/

Revali4 votes

I'll never really understand the dota comparisons as their balance philosophies are completely different and bear no real point.

Maybe I'm an idiot, correct me if i'm wrong.

Anidan1 votes

As someone who plays both: No, you're right. The balance philosophies between the two games are pretty different, so trying to draw a comparison like this just falls flat. A support in League can reasonably expect to complete the build provided in a long League games; in a long DotA game, the support MIGHT complete 3 full items: maybe a Force Staff, Glimmer Cape, Spirit Vessel, or Eul's (any combination of the 2/3, based on the support). Depending on the support they may rush an Aghs instead which is a huge investment for a support. The build given for supports in DotA2 is actually pretty unrealistic given support gold income, because, as you can see from how much gold the carry needs for his build, the position 1 and 2 heroes (the "carries") will have to vacuum almost all sources of gold on the map, and with Position 4 and 5 (the "supports") have to make a dollar stretch for miles. Guardian Greaves, for example, will not let them stretch their gold efficiently.

RocketRelm4 votes

Well, to compare let's look at a standard full build for AP mages. item 3165 item 3020 item 3135 item 3089 item 3157 item 3102 (2900)(1100)(2650)(3800)(2900)(3000) = 16350 Total

The funny thing is that mages have a build more expensive, but are less powerful at that stage in the game. Now, ADCs are intended to be the end-all-be-all of hyper-late game, but once upon a time this meant being able to continue to exchange gold for power (without doing shit like selling boots) for a few thousand gold after AP champions capped out.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Don't worry. Mages compensate by having utility.

~~ Ashe Caitlyn Jhin Jinx Kalista Sivir Tristana Varus Vayne Xayah ~~

ProfDrDeath3 votes

Infinity Edge: Back to 3800 gold, now gives 75 AD.

Zeal Upgrades: 2900 gold, no change in stats (for the first patch).

Essence Reaver: 3600 gold, 75 AD. Counts Infinity Edge (the completed item) as having 30% Crit Chance for the Crit->CdR conversion.

New Item: BF Sword + Cloak of Agility - 2200-2400 gold, 45 AD, 20% Crit Chance. Builds into Infinity Edge and Essence Reaver.

New Item: Vampiric Sceptre + Pickaxe - 2200-2400 gold, 40 AD, Unique: 12% Lifesteal. Builds into Bloodthirster, Ravenous Hydra, Death's Dance.

Lord Dominik's & Mortal Reminder: 2800 gold, 40% bonus ArPen.

Black Cleaver: New Unique Passive - Last Whisper: Grants 10% bonus ArPen against a target with 6 Cleaver stacks.


Two slot-efficient items to smoothen out power curves in the later stages of the game and make building their completed items less of a pain to build. Other ADC items a tad more expensive (and possibly slot-efficient). Keep Zeal at 1200 gold to offer a bit of power to ADCs early - not gamebreakingly much (as the cheap upgrades do now), but enough so the role is not entirely crippled.

Make Armor Pen and Armor Reduction a bit better for dealing with tanks.

That would be my suggestions.

Meep Man1 votes

I would only change the gold cost, not the stats, unless it becomes necessary AFTER the change. What you are suggesting could overall be nice changes after the outcome of the ADC changes is studied.

Bjørnetjenesten1 votes

Do you know what other items costs 3800 g? Rabadons. Do you know who buys rabadons? No one.

You are litterally removing a core item for an entire class from the game.

What they should do instead is give crit items a passive so the price goes up the more crit you buy. This means cheap first item, of your choice, but the next item will be more expensive and so on. Buying 4 crit items should be really fucking expensive, this way you force adc to build something else than 70-100 crit. Unless they get really fed/50+ min.

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Eh yeah meanwhile trinity at 3,7k gold, hydra 3,5k gold, steraks 3,2k gold. Stop this bullshit that infinity edge shouldnt cost more. It is an item meant to be a lategame powerspike through the crit amplification and raw AD yet it has often been even a first buy for adcs. It needs to lose AD or get gold increase to 3,6. I wouldn't even let ER be cheaper to make adcs more likely to go ER instead of IE.

Bjørnetjenesten1 votes

Just saying 3.8 is alot of gold to save up for 75 ad and crit amp. 3.6 sounds reasonable, but again thats what it used to be last year. Dunno if you remember "adc in 2k17 lul" meme and ziggs becoming the strongest adc. Everyone was crying about adc role being useless and hitting their power too late. So rito buffed ad item prices.

They need to increase the prices, but only by a small ammount, maybe 100-200 g and see how meta shifts, you never know the effects of price increase, cause it effects all champions indirectly.

Sujiren2 votes

And lower the gold income in general. Remove first blood turret gold, tune down global gold gains from turrets. Right now some marksman, skip the midgame entirely, by picking a couple of early kills + turret gold.

Meep Man2 votes

I would rather shift ADC items up in cost only as that would affect other classes. Melee Carries/ADCs aren't that big of an issue.

Sujiren2 votes

Most other classes while also having expensive items, come online faster than adcs. Example someone like Zed is already threat with just item 3147 , Jax hard spikes at just item 3078 . Now adc, needs atleast item 3031 +item 3087 before they become relevant. So lower global gold income overall is a buff to other classes, since they need less than adc to function.

Meep Man2 votes

It wouldn't be a buff to anyone as the overall difference in time would be the same, or at least the % difference in time. A reduction in gold income across the board would only make games last longer, which isn't necessarily the goal here although it could come as a secondary result since ADCs commonly end the game quickly once they reach full build or near it.

We don't want to affect any other parts of the game with this change, as that isn't the goal here. The goal here is to make ADCs take longer to get items and reach their prime, not buff everyone but ADCs. This change you are suggesting could cause unforeseeable consequences elsewhere in the game that were not originally planned.

Zed genius1 votes

{quoted}

Most other classes while also having expensive items, come online faster than adcs. Example someone like Zed is already threat with just item 3147 , Jax hard spikes at just item 3078 . Now adc, needs atleast item 3031 +item 3087 before they become relevant. So lower global gold income overall is a buff to other classes, since they need less than adc to function.

Yes, other classes should be relevant before lategame. Assassins thrive in mid game. The amount that an adc gets on 6 items compared to a zed with 6 items is not even comparable. The only counterplay to adc's is beating them before they get the powerspike and we get people complaining that ad carries are beatable before lategame now?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Why not just nerf static shiv away so people go back to building hurricane/phantom instead? x)

That and shift some of the marksmen's tank killing ability over to another class while also increasing the price of each crit item about 100-200 gold.

Static nerfs alone would hurt snowballing badly, then some extra nerfs will be the finishing touches.

Maybe also make it so marksmen stop building relic shield, it seems to be a bit over the top how they stack it and other stuff.

The heal page seems pretty broken overall as well, not just on marksmen, seems like it needs nerfs since it seems to be making champs like Nasus, Jax and trundle go crazy along with marksmen.

RookPusher2 votes

They're weak enough in the earlier game. I'd argue they're too weak. But this is considered "compensation" for their insane late game.

Buff early game, nerf late game imo

Zed genius5 votes

bUfF aDc PlEaSe ThIs RoLe Is ToO wEaK

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YJapHha3,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-01-08T20:57:47.494+0000)

bUfF aDc PlEaSe ThIs RoLe Is ToO wEaK

Did you not see the part where I said they should nerf the late game? Or did you just want to take a cheap shot?

ADC sucks. It's a BS role because if your support is a meatpie you're screwed. If they aren't, you're a fed monster that's fairly unkillable. Just because you have an axe to grind doesn't mean I need to ignore facts.

Zed genius4 votes

so buff their already strong early game? For what? What's the point of that lol

RookPusher1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YJapHha3,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-08T22:28:40.922+0000)

so buff their already strong early game? For what? What's the point of that lol

Yeah I mean that's a matter of opinion I suppose. And it's not one I have a strong feelings on. But one of the reasons I loathe playing ADC is how screwed you are without a competent Support.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Adcs do need a late game nerf but they dont need early buffs at all. they also need early nerfs

Dark Nephthys2 votes

That's true but games don't even get to late game so much anymore and that's not even all because of ADCs being strong (though it is a good portion of it). I do agree that the ADCs items should be increased a little bit, as their items are pretty cheap and its annoying seeing hyper carries reaching late game with 1-2 items. Though doing so would hurt the other ADCs who don't become instant monsters early and who aren't doing amazing right now like Sivir Ashe and even Jinx who is a hyper carry that is being out-performed by others.

Though doing that would allow some one who has always had a kind of weak early, be able to actually compete KogMaw as he wouldn't be effected by crit items being increased so there's that.

Whisper872 votes

These cheaper builds is how RIOT promotes proactive fighting and interaction to keep the game exciting and limit game length. But to your point lets say right now (just as an example) the average game length is like 28 minutes. Champions other than adc's typically feel pretty damn good with just brown boots and 1 built item. ADC's who build the crit multiplying build up above don't really feel strong until Berzerker Greaves, IE/ER, and their fully built zeal item come online. They aren't really going nuts until that second zeal item comes in and against tanks they actually need a second zeal item and a LW.

So the argument is that if the ADC comes online at 2 items and Berzerker greaves (at this point they are not situated to hard carry, but are now an actual threat), it's too easy for them to get into 4-5 item range where they CAN hard carry, right? .....WRONG. This is an erroneous line of thought, especially with how much early game bursters are getting our of the Runes Reforged. Let me explain why using numbers and gameflow:

So if an ADC needs IE, Shyv, and Greaves to feel like a legit threat: It costs them 3400, 2600, and 1100 gold for a total of 7100 gold. While lets say Zed mid or Ahri mid come online at just Duskblade/Yomuus or just Morello and then brown boots to get onto folks, that;s just 2900g for the damage item and 300g for boots, totaling 3200g. If a game is 28-30 mins, think of what percentage of the game the ADC is in a power trough compared to other damage champs. And this is not even including if you actually used your early game superiority to delay that 7100g even further and build up your own power curve, and also not including if the ADC went like Tabi which delays their build.

So at the point when Zed has Duskblade/Yommuus and brown boots, the ADC is sitting on something like Static Shyv and Brown Boots, or more likely BF sword, Zeal, and Brown boots. Now, if the ADC sees like a Zed and/or Kha on the enemy team they may opt for ninja tabi. Because of the way Attack speed synergizes with Crit and AD, their powerspike from IE + Shyv is actually delayed until they spend another 1200g to get another zeal. Now, add on top of that the fact that items like Lost Chapter, Serrated Dirk, and Caufield's Warhammer all have much more value than just a flat BF or Pickaxe or Kirsheis Shard. Even Black Cleaver if you are on a bruiser only costs 3000g. And Warrior enchant out of the jungle only costs 2625g.

If you are playing anyone utilizing Morellos, a Lethality Item, Black Cleaver, or other similarly well rounded first items, it is your job to use the power you have from about 1400g to develop a lead and stay ahead so that the 5500g gap the adc needs to close becomes insurmountable. If a crit building adc is getting ahead of the more low econ damage sources that's because their team carried them early our you erroneously chose not to target them while they were weak.

I'll end with a scenario. Zed kills enemy mid laner and jungle a couple times each for a total of 4, then maybe roams top and kills Maokai once. Then he spends a few minutes harassing roaming in enemy jungle, forcing him off of farm and denying the blue buff hand off. All the while bot lane is going even. Zed finally goes bot lane but walks across a ward, support locks him up for a couple seconds and then ADC turns around and blasts him for 90% of his hp possibly kills him although unlikely. This is not an illustration of how ADC's get too strong early. It shows how when you are playing an assassin you utilize your superior priority in the early-mid game to hamstring the enemies while they are weak and understanding what their comeback conditions are and slamming those doors. Instead of wandering around in enemy jungle, it was probably more value to visit bot lane before they farmed 4.5k gold. Or pressure mid and take tower instead of roaming top to kill a low econ tank like Maokai.

It doesn't matter how much you want it to be, just constantly fishing for easy kills or cleanup kills is not going to be a reliable strat because the game is not designed that way. NOTE: this argument hasn't even touched on split pushing and/or gank pressure that ADC's may lack.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Ok.

Then make tanks weaker so that they don't mow everyone down without dying because the sustained DPS doesn't even tickle them.

Meep Man1 votes

Overall, I think the change to ADCs to make them more late game might enable changes to other classes down the line since the current class balance is based around the current speed at which ADCs reach prime status. Currently, Tanks kind of need the damage they have right now to be relevant, especially ones that are in the Top Lane as otherwise it just turns into a pillow fort lane where the Tanks absorbs endless poke and the enemy endlessly pokes the Tank, both sides not really doing much to each other. If we are to be changing Tanks after such a change to ADCs, I believe it would be wise to nerf their damage and not any other part of their kit as Tanks do not necessarily require damage to do their jobs. I would say nerf their damage and buff their crowd control if needed. This would make lanes with Tanks in them, especially Top Lane, not just become uninteractive lanes.

undesirable team1 votes

If carries were weaker early game then we'd see a cancer meta of lethality/early game carries. remember Draven Lucian Kalista Varus MissFortune

Zed genius1 votes

at least those fall off lul. A vayne does the same amount of damage while also scaling to be a hypercarry

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Except for kalista i'd rather have lethality ADCs who can atleast be tanked, build against instead of getting killed in literal two AAs by so called "hypercarries".

Jinx Hunter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=R FLASH EMOTE XD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YJapHha3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-01-08T20:32:09.194+0000)

If carries were weaker early game then we'd see a cancer meta of lethality/early game carries. remember Draven Lucian Kalista Varus MissFortune

That's why the whole of the marksmen class needs nerfs, you nerf one group and the other becomes cancer. It has always been like that. They all need changes or nerfs as a whole or the next one in line will just take over where the others use to be.

You have to nerf or change them as a class, nerfing 1 or 2 in a vacuum and ignoring the rest wont solve anything; which is what riot has been doing for years.

zlumpy1 votes

Why can't everyone just be weaker in early game? I want longer games back.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Must be playing Karma.

Plastic 5 ADC1 votes

Go play dota then LUL

vgamedude1 votes

I could never get into dota though I wish I could. The entire meta in that game is far more interesting and less restrictive. I hadn't realized the gold differences were that drastic.

Èreb Ysondre1 votes

Sure let's make this underwhelming role even more underwhelming. You need those items to so ANYTHING you have literally 0 way to deal with anything before 2 items and then your only way is through kite hopefully some items are cheap enough so you don't have to wait 20 minutes doing nothing. Meanwhile assassins with 1100 gold can already deal more than 60% on any ADC same with mage with 1 item or supports 1v1'ing ADC in the mid game. Right now and ADC vs almost any other champ in the mid game is a loss for the ADC except if you have summoners and such. Some ADC's are too powerful but the vast majority of the role is underpowered, as a Jinx player I feel particularly weak right now with most ADC being okay thanks to their powerspike of 2 items for 6000gold when mine is at 3 items. We have less champs to choose from less item choices no real defensive option and the ones we have are not rewarding to build we need time to do anything in the game, we are constantly under pressure of getting flamed by the team for not having damage and need to kite and position perfectly to not get one shot by any champions, even tanks. Meanwhile assassins have insane burst with one component item, mages do the same with an item while being so much more tanky and having cc and tanks have too much damage for how tanky they are. ADC is the unloved role even less than support and should have a major rework. It should be a role that struggles early but isn't pure garbage early, and hits powerspikes on each item completion and not one insane powerspike at some amount of item 2 or 3.

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