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So legit team comps excluding a mage, a tank, an assassin, a fighter or even an enchanter exist...

SSShutTheDuckUp··49 votes·2,358 views

...but not marksmen. So assassins and mages can replace each other, providing burst for the team. Vangards, fighters and assassins can work in different combinations, providing some mix of tankiness and damage. Both enchanters and wardens can protect their carries. Same goes for initiation and disengage, but with them I will just repeat myself. But it turns out that marksmen have no real alternative.

Hear me out. I am not asking for the marksmen to be gutted. I simply want diversity. Over the years we've seen many different classes of champions be played as toplaners, midlaners, junglers and supports. Not the same bot the botlane carry. I remember only 2 champions, who were not marksmen to be played there - Morde and Ziggs. As a result Morde was nerfed more than needed. When botlane Ziggs became a thing literally all of the marksmen were buffed, as well as support items, designed to help exclusively marksmen. Looking at you, item 3504.

Yeah, no favoritism whatsoever!

85 Comments

ProfDrDeath16 votes

You want to know why teams always have a ranged, auto-attack-based champion?

Because a ranged, auto-attack-based champion gives up the least efficiency by sharing XP. Meanwhile, ability-based champs want XP for those sweet, sweet damage and utility increases, while melees want XP for tankiness to survive having to walk into melee range to really do stuff.

This becomes obvious when one considers Mordekaiser's initial Juggernaut rework. He got an effect that allowed him to almost ignore the penalty from sharing XP, getting full XP himself when killing a unit even with a nearby ally. As such, he was massively overpowered as a bot laner.

SSShutTheDuckUp7 votes

I do not want to know why. I already do. I want diverse comps to be viable as well.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Why not make it so there's no XP loss for having multiple people together? What is this effect actually in place to prevent?

Kai Guy2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipK3YKlVWAg

DarkRitual1 votes

Easy change: Two people share exp, more than two in exp range gives penalties.

Deez Crits1 votes

How would this affect the jungler? The jungler is still necessary to utilize the gold and buffs.

You have two options: clear camps then go sit in mid/top (most likely mid so you don't lose pressure on dragon) for guaranteed exp advantage or clear camps then attempt to gank lanes for a possible advantage. Sitting in a lane also can offer the benefit of zoning the enemy from CS.

Not only will you have to evaluate whether this risk vs. reward scenario is acceptable, you would have to make sure junglers aren't getting massively ahead in terms of exp if they sit in a lane. Tweaking exp gains under the proposed change would be difficult to balance without making failed ganks more costly or forcing junglers to sit in a lane after camps.

DarkRitual1 votes

You are on a completely different page than this disussion. Your entire reply is irrelevant to exp sharing for duo laners.

Deez Crits1 votes

I think I misunderstood your original post; although if I did I don't see how your original comment I replied to is relevant.

Someone asked why not have everyone obtain full exp without splitting it when they are nearby. Someone responded with a video of a full team running down a lane; this is exactly why we have the exp splitting between team members. The game as of right now discourages this because of turret damage reduction (at least in lanes other than bot, but the five man strategy works best in mid where minions move a little faster) and the exp system, so now I don't really know what your "fix" is for if there's nothing to be fixed.

I assumed by "two laners sharing exp" you meant both laners would get the full exp due to the context. And, if this is indeed what you meant, you do have to consider how it affects other aspects in the game.

Kai Guy1 votes

Mordekaiser

Starcraft243ver3 votes

Ziggs Mordekaiser ?

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Mordekaiser, as said above, gets to ignore a good part of the XP problem that makes ranged auto-attackers the superior general choice for bot lane.

Ziggs, on the other hand, was only seen when ADCs in general were in a weak spot. That was, in Spring before the buffs to BotRK, Warlord's Bloodlust and Shiv/Firecannon on the ADC side and the buffs to Ancient Coin, the support item quests and enchanter itemization on the support side. Also, he made his team gain a tempo advantage almost by default, as he was virtually guaranteed tower first blood.

Penns15 votes

Well its ranged dps to objectives and champs, no other class has that so.. I dont think its a problem, as long as they arent overpowered with supports like right now.

SSShutTheDuckUp5 votes

I know that, but I do not like it. Why couldn't juggernauts be that good versus tanks? Why couldn't mages push that fast? Marksmen are the only class that was always meta and mandatory. I just want to see more diversity, it would make the game more interesting

yoshi27902 votes

Because Mages are AP. You want an AD Mage? Ezreal . Juggernauts have More defensive items, so they deal very little damage to tanks, Tanks will outheal most of their damage. They also aren't ranged so they are easier targets to hit with CC.

Marksmen are the META because they are needed. No matter how hard you nerf them, they will always be META.

Mens Hair Club7 votes

"they deal very little damage to tanks"

top jej my pal juggernauts shit on tanks in a straight fight

yoshi27901 votes

Yes that's true. But it takes very long, which is, bad.

Spoofghoul2 votes

They are tanks . . .

People like you is how we end up with shitty balance

hurr durr the guy with 6 defensive items doesn't die in 2 second i demand buffs!!!!1!

now we have this overpowered adc clusterfuck going on

Skins Project7 votes

WDYM?

When Ziggs Adc was meta for a lil, or mord adc. Both are "legit team comps"

OHminus14 votes

These two examples mean nothing compared to 7 seasons of other classes being interchangeable

Skins Project4 votes

OP claims NONE, i'm saying there are. Mord ADC is STILL VIABLE right now. Just because people don't do it doesn't mean it doesn't exsist. Beyond that the op's claim is also fringe cases, so don't fucking say it's so damn special.

SSShutTheDuckUp6 votes

I actually mentioned them and what happened when they were viable

OHminus2 votes

^Was about to mention this in my reply, but I saw you commented this. Guy doesn't know how to read.

Skins Project3 votes

Because it's pointless. Majority rules on these forums. The OP claims they don't count anymore because they're "weak" but they still exist, are are still viable. But y'know, say something the circlejerk can get behind yeah?

OHminus1 votes

Still viable? Sure. Meta? No.

There hasn't been a single extended meta where adcs weren't a focal point of every team.

Skins Project1 votes

Now who can't read. "legit team comps" ≠meta

OHminus1 votes

Yes, and those "legit" team comps will make you lose more than you win.

Both Morde and Ziggs REQUIRE certain supports (Blitz/Thresh ... maybe Rakan for Morde, Brand, Zyra, Karma for Ziggs). Both those "botlaners" are not viable if, say, their support picked Janna.

Also, I would say the one who can't read is still you. I wasn't replying to your original post, but was replying to your asinine comment about these two botlaners still being viable. I agree that both those botlaners are "viable", given the correct support and the "correct" enemy team comp (Ziggs sucks against anything that can hard engage against him, and Morde just stinks whenever he can't get to the enemy carry). But OP's post is demoaning the fact that outside of these two fringe cases, there have been almost no team comps where a marksman wasn't required (also, when both of these champs in the bottom lane were "legit", they still went up against Jinx, Trist, Kalista, and Sivir (in Morde's case) and Jhin, Caitlyn and Varus (in Zigg's case). Also, imo, "legit team comps" = meta - if a certain comp is "legit", it means it wins more than it loses, thus making it one of the "most effective tactics available".

Skins Project1 votes

Your interpretation isn't mine. The OP's post is complaining that marksmen are too powerful in comparison to other classes, and hence are in every meta, and claims there are no "legit non-marksman teamcomps"

Beyond that, mentioning doesn't make it false.

"All apples are red, with the exception of any non-red apples"

OHminus2 votes

Wow you're a bit triggered aren't you?

Take a chill pill, and while you're at it check your match history. There's at least one marksman on each team, isn't there?

(Also, pffft. Morde adc. Viable? Maybe, if you want to lose 70 percent of your games)

Bob the Toastr3 votes

Yeah, he's only really viable if you have a blitz. Otherwise it's hard to engage.

Mens Hair Club2 votes

or a Leona, a naut, an Alistar...

any tank support really

Skins Project2 votes

https://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=iamrubicksama

OHminus1 votes

Wow, you found one example of a person who has a 70 percent winrate with Morde!! Good job!!

Now please, give me at least 60 of these and I'll be convinced that Morde bot isn't garbage.

Skins Project2 votes

Viable mean's it's doable.

Popular mean's it's popular. It doesn't have to be both.

IcyPepper2 votes

When Ziggs Adc was meta for a lil, or mord adc.

The fact that you use "ADC" instead of "bot" suggests there's a problem with that lane.

NekoniClaws6 votes

Botlane is dictated by the support possibly more than the ADC. You can take a diver bot, wait for a wave to push and then jump on the adc - but you can't do it if someone's there to peel for them. Ranged attacks and peel also have natural synergy. Anything not marksman going bot has to have synergy too, or you're fighting at a disadvantage by default.

Games without tanks and without AP aren't exactly OK in general either, they rely on seperate win conditions and tend to, (not always, but tend to) fall flat against teams with the full spread. It's simply that there are some midlaners who hate playing AP, and everyone in general hates playing tanks.

SSShutTheDuckUp5 votes

I've tried different combinations for botlane - duo mages, duo tanks, duo divers, tank+mage, etc. While they can wok in lane all of them eventually get outclassed by marksman-support duo. And I find this very dumb. I'd love more options and more diversity. Marksman+support is not just META (most efficient tactics available), it is the only efficient tactics available. Why should it be that way?

Smooth561 votes

And why not ? There are players who enjoy playing adc or support. For adcs, the diversity lies in which champion you choose. And those who don't like playing adc still have 4 roles available where they can have arguably more diversity. I would be sad if adcs wouldn't be meta since i play 90% of my games as adc since season 3...

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

Not what I said. For example - mages. You can play mage pretty much everywhere, yet there are team comps without a mage.

Smooth561 votes

If by mage you mean AP carry, that's not true or at least it's not an efficient team comp.

NoPaxt5 votes

Still whining about Ardent Censor?

  1. Pay attention to the support.
  2. Lock down and focus who they are buffing/healing.
  3. Delete that target first.
  4. Rinse and repeat.
Ariel the Cruel7 votes

Why this doesn't work in Yolo-queue:

  1. Supports don't exist. It's just a 4v4. (>_>)
  2. Teams have as much focus as a herd of cats.
  3. People always focus on the front-line first.
  4. We're out of soap.

;p

DuskDaUmbreon7 votes

What happened to 4?

Jhin is very triggered!

And yes, very astute

To notice four lines.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

What happened to 4?

"Supports don't exist. It's just a 4v4."

You're covered. ;p

SSShutTheDuckUp4 votes

I do not whine about ardent, i don't like how marksmen are irreplaceable and mandatory

NoPaxt5 votes

Ranged damage is necessary, because with out it everyone just dies to AOE spam...

Oh and when Mordekaiser is my "ADC"... A marksmen has to go top or jg.

SSShutTheDuckUp3 votes

Yes, and that is dumb. There is no need to be that way. You can replace a tank and an assassin duo with two divers for example, but if you replace the marksman with whatever you'll get outscaled and probably lose.

AirKingNeo2 votes

Every team comp as a frontline (Tank/Bruiser) and every viable team has a burst character (mage/assassin) and every team as a peel character (support), so why are you so offended that every viable team has a DPS character (marksmen)?

I still ask this question and I still haven't gotten an answer.

SSShutTheDuckUp3 votes

Well, not exactly. "Juggermaw" team comp for example can lack any burst, it is just Kog'Maw/Twitch bond with 4 peelers/shielders/healers. That's just one example. There were multiple META through the years, even in pro play we've seen double assassin team comps, who were lacking a solid frontline, depending on what were considered string at the time.

But even if what you are saying is correct - why are marksmen ALWAYS the choice for DPS? We have DPS mages, but you will not see for example botlane DPS mage plus midlane burst mage, while you can see double marksmen team comp. Lucian mid being the most recent pick, however there were a lot of them during the years.

HeeroTX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YFfaYnFB,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-08-29T23:49:03.888+0000)

But even if what you are saying is correct - why are marksmen ALWAYS the choice for DPS? We have DPS mages, but you will not see for example botlane DPS mage plus midlane burst mage, while you can see double marksmen team comp. Lucian mid being the most recent pick, however there were a lot of them during the years.

Marksmen are "always" the choice for DPS because any other options are STUPID:

  • Melee DPS vs Ranged DPS, your DPS is not protected by your tank, thus DPS dies first (if DPS is melee they will be RIGHT NEXT TO the tank and thus equally accessible)
  • AP DPS vs AD DPS, your AD DPS is more reliable because it's not "gated" by mana and cooldowns. Also, AP (except in very rare cases) doesn't target structures, so is useless for objective pushing.

There's no way to address point 1 unless you remove range entirely (go back to the stone age, tactically speaking) or remove tanks/make them useless (ie. EVERYONE deals insane damage so why bother with a "frontline"). Point 2 is addressable but would require two MAJOR changes. #1, AP would need to be applicable to structures and #2, you need champions that EITHER get AP enhanced auto-attacks OR get HUGE burst that equals AAs in DPS calcs, but even then they will likely be worse than marksmen because of the large windows during cooldowns. And if you make a champ that has AP AAs, then what's the difference really, aside from what items they buy?

TL;DR - The only way to make marksmen not "meta" is to make League a totally different game, either tactically or structurally.

Out of curiosity, can you give an example of what you could envision as a "different meta-comp" that you wish was viable? To be frank, the reason you keep marksmen (always) is for structure destruction, which is why the Ziggs idea was the one replacement. "3 assassin + Support + Tank" (just as a random example) would never be "meta" because even melee AD would kill structures faster and tanks could reasonably keep the melee safe if there's no ranged DPS on the opposition.

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

There is no need to be like that. Ranged mages can also AA the turrets, but their lack f attack speed guts them. If ranged AA scaled for example at 50% AD, some mages could be on-par with marksmen when destroying turrets.

Answering your question: what would be wrong if a teamcomp has 2 tanks, an AD assassin, a mage and a support? And if it had tools to push as fast as, for example a comp of 2 tanks, an AP assassin, a marksman and a support. At current stage of the game the latter is better at killing BOTH tanks and structures.

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