@Riot: you need to make a decision on jinx identity in this game

Critmaster Garen··3 votes·881 views

is she a lategame hypercarry, or is she a utility carry? because she cant be both at the same time.

even though her pickrate dropped to 30% (lol) she maintains a consistent win rate of 54% to 55%. and that is because right now jinx has 2 kits in one.

on one hand, there is her q. she gains a total of 700 attack range. its to note, that this is the third longest auto attack range in the game, only surpassed by kog with activated w with 710, and twitch with activated ult with 850. in addition, she also gains 10% bonus damge and her auto attacks deal aoe damage that can critically strike. the only ability that can compare to this is probably twitchs ult.

if she ever feels herself pushed into a corner, she can switch to minigun mode, and gains up to a whooping 130% attack speed within 3 auto attacks, that she can keep up as long as she keeps auto attacking. allowing her to outduel anything that manages to get past her rocket range. up until jinx relase, fioras e was the strongest attack speed steroid in the game with 120% as for up to 3 seconds. it also turns her into one of the strongest turret destroyers in the game.

its safe to say, that this ability alone turns her into a lategame hypercarry. with one enormous difference to other lategame hypercarries. her early game isnt nearly as weak.

and then there is the utility adc part.

the low cooldown, 70% 2 sec slow on her w, that deals more than 600 damage with total 300 ad and grants vision for some reason. that lets her poke like a mage.

her mines, that also grant vision for some reason, let her check bushes and easily wall herself off with a 1.5 second snare. low mobility or not. most other damage focused carries tend to have minor aoe slows. what makes her special that she gets to have 2 hard cc abilities in her kit that also provide vision?

her passive, that tends to conveniently proc on random assists in teamfights due to the aoe damage on rockets and makes the "low mobility" carry suddenly not so low on mobility anymore and lets her ghost with 175% movement speed.

if you just compare jinx kit to other ad carries, she has just way too much. she needs either to lose some underserved utility like the passive procs on assists and the vision on her q, and mines, reduce her auto attack range in rocket mode.

or she needs her damage tuned down. increase the ramp up time on her minigun, remove the crit damage from the aoe of her rockets.

13 Comments

Strawberrycocoa3 votes

Jinx needs the slow and the root to self peel since she can't escape well if dived on. If she didn't have her root she'd be unable to escape at ALL from aggressive opponents.

Her mine's root is NOT a hard CC by the way. Jinx has ZERO hard CC because hard CC prevents all action. Jinx has two SOFT CCs: a slow and a root which inhibit movement but do not prevent retaliation attack. If she roots you you can still auto-attack and use non-movement skills.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Jinx needs the slow and the root to self peel since she can't escape well if dived on. If she didn't have her root she'd be unable to escape at ALL from aggressive opponents.

Her mine's root is NOT a hard CC by the way. Jinx has ZERO hard CC because hard CC prevents all action. Jinx has two SOFT CCs: a slow and a root which inhibit movement but do not prevent retaliation attack. If she roots you you can still auto-attack and use non-movement skills.

a 70% slow might aswell be a snare.

she can drop her mines at the start of a fight and easily wall herself off behind them. a snare is a hard cc.

and as far as escapes go, her passive gives her enough movement speed to kite and keep her distance. dispite having to grab an assist, she usually does not have a hard time activating her passive.

she either needs to give up her damage or her ability to self peel and kite.

you dont see twitch with a 70% slow on a 6 second cooldown, and a snare in his kit. he has to use his invisibility to position at the start of a fight, and then his team has to peel for him. he has 0 self peel ability from there on.

its not even a question that jinx is op. the statistics speak for themselves. other ranged ad either focus on dealing damage, or on utility and poke. for some reason, jinx has everything.

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

A snare is NOT hard CC. You are capable of fighting back if she remains in attack range. You are NOT prevented from attacking her while snared. Can she escape you with it? Yes, absolutely. But she needs SOMETHING to escape with. If she uses it aggressively to pin you down for a fight, then all she's done is restrict your mobility because you can open fire on her right back without interruption even when snared.

If she is getting her passive triggered from an assist, that means you're already losing the fight since an ally died. If her team scores a death and she uses her passive to flee, consider yourself lucky they did not press the 5v4 advantage, or turn back around to 2v1 you.

Jinx does not need to give up either of the things you insist she does. She has high damage because that is her role. She only has enough utility to pin down fleeing targets (assuming they don't avoid the skillshots, hint hint). She does not have enough to be a "utility carry".

Twitch can also use his invisibility to flee, and he can do it on demand without requiring himself to already BE winning the fight like Jinx does. Twitch's invisibility is much more useful than Jinx's passive for safety.

Black Coffee 6662 votes

varus has slow and snare. hes utility. ashe has scouting arrow and stun. utility twitch has slow and invis. utility trist has knock back cait has long range poke, snare that reveals brush, and slow/escape. utilty graves has fog of war utiily kali can save or throw teammates at people and has scout mechanic. utility quinn reveals fog of war utility urgot gets free maxed black cleaver on e and reposition. utility vayne has knock back stun. utility draven has knock back. definitely utility. sivir has aoe movespeed buff and spell shield. utility mf has slow and wave clear luc has waveclear kog shreds armor and has reveal poke and a slow. utility

ezreal and corki are the only REAL adcs in this game

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Black Coffee 666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YEsXBNnx,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-05-06T07:55:04.539+0000)

varus has slow and snare. hes utility. ashe has scouting arrow and stun. utility twitch has slow and invis. utility trist has knock back cait has long range poke, snare that reveals brush, and slow/escape. utilty graves has fog of war utiily kali can save or throw teammates at people and has scout mechanic. utility quinn reveals fog of war utility urgot gets free maxed black cleaver on e and reposition. utility vayne has knock back stun. utility draven has knock back. definitely utility. sivir has aoe movespeed buff and spell shield. utility mf has slow and wave clear luc has waveclear kog shreds armor and has reveal poke and a slow. utility

ezreal and corki are the only REAL adcs in this game

all of those have varying degrees of utility. the relation is usually less utility the more inbuilt damage they have.

ashe being one extreme, and twitch being the other. his only cc is a relatively weak slow. his invisibility is attached to an attack speed buff and a positioning tool before a fight starts. as soon as hes caught up in a fight, the delay makes it extremely difficult to use it as an escape. hes all damage, but basically a sitting duck in return.

jinx damage nearly equals twitch damage potential, but she doesnt have the drawbacks he has. she has a hard slow on a short cooldown, extra cc on her e, in addition to ms passive. and she has a better lane phase than him.

meaning there is not enough tradeoff for the damage she deals from long range.

the combination of utility and damage she has is more than other ranged ad have. she has at least some quality any other ranged ad has, while every other ranged ad is specialized in his nieche. like i said. shes like the lee sin of ranged ad. she can poke, she can waveclear, she can splitpush, she can teamfight, she can 1v1, she can scout, she deals burst damage with her ult. and thats why she needs to lose either some of one or some of the other.

also, i wouldnt classify urgot as a ranged ad. hes builds more like an ad scaling poke mage. in fact, he rather counters ranged adc.

Aww Kat1 votes

This is perfect

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

This is perfect

it would be perfect if they decided where theyre going with her.

the problem with overly versatile champions is, that theyre either too good at everything, or that their strengths in every field get watered down enough so theyre outshined by more specialized champions.

jinx cant exist with her kit and be balanced, any more than jayce can. the problem is, that they have it too easy to adapt their playstiles to whoever theyre fighting.

in jinx case compared to other adc, she can either focus on long range damage and w poke from relative safetly, or plain outdamaging most other champs at close distance.

they need to chose from her kit one or 2 clear strengths, focus on that, give her a nieche and forget about the rest.

lofi n chillhop1 votes

D: I totally wanna play a jinx game right now

seriously I am a 2-year-old and you are waving icecream under my nose...

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

D: I totally wanna play a jinx game right now

seriously I am a 2-year-old and you are waving icecream under my nose...

guess you got to abuse broken as long as it lasts.

IcyPepper1 votes

Problem about her Q is that she has the lowest base AS of her class, with a 17% boost to .625 autos per second at level 18. Fiora's, on the other hand, is .675 with a 51% boost at level 18. Knowing how multiplication works, you should know this prevents Jinx from spamming her rockets (apparently AS per level is calculated as bonus AS as they level up, along with a base of .625 or .675 or whatever else) and makes her high AS highly dependent on her Q.

the low cooldown, 70% 2 sec slow on her w, that deals more than 600 damage with total 300 ad and grants vision for some reason. that lets her poke like a mage.

Her W can be blocked by minions, and has a delay that makes it relatively easy to dodge. If you know how Ahri, Zed, even Annie's main poking spells works, this isn't very comparable to a mage. It can be used to harass if a support hides out in a bush (Blitzcrank, I'm looking at you) which I'm betting is a good reason for the vision, but is otherwise very avoidable. And if she has 300 AD, with a standard adc build she should be able to deal 600 damage with an autoattack like everyone else. Hell, using the spell for damage instead of autoattacking might lower her dps because attack speed.

her mines, that also grant vision for some reason, let her check bushes and easily wall herself off with a 1.5 second snare. low mobility or not. most other damage focused carries tend to have minor aoe slows. what makes her special that she gets to have 2 hard cc abilities in her kit that also provide vision?

A lot of snare abilities give vision for a brief moment. Nidalee traps, Caitlyn traps (who also has a slow AND small leap in the same spell, btw, with a poke spell that goes through minion waves instead of being blocked). If you're going to call an adc's abilities minor aoe slows, you can't call Jinx's W hard cc. Not only is it easy to dodge, but sounds heavily biased. Is a slow hard or soft cc or not? Caitlyn has a slow and a snare, does that mean she has two hard cc? She can also semi-ward three different places with her traps permanently too, until someone activates it.

her passive, that tends to conveniently proc on random assists in teamfights due to the aoe damage on rockets and makes the "low mobility" carry suddenly not so low on mobility anymore and lets her ghost with 175% movement speed.

Caitlyn gets free crits during the laning phase, Aatrox has a GA, Karthus can cast spells after death. Jinx has a passive, it's not really one worth complaining about. Especially when a similar and stronger one such as Katarina's exists.

if you just compare jinx kit to other ad carries, she has just way too much. she needs either to lose some underserved utility like the passive procs on assists and the vision on her q, and mines, reduce her auto attack range in rocket mode.

Any champion can sound OP under the right light. You need to highlight their weaknesses to make a stronger argument (which Jinx does have, as unwilling as you might be to say so).

or she needs her damage tuned down. increase the ramp up time on her minigun, remove the crit damage from the aoe of her rockets.

They did just nerf the close-range damage of her ult, which I actually did like. She's not supposed to be close range burst outside her minigun, she's supposed to be far-range poke in fights like that.

Her base AS is very low, there is no need to cripple her minigun. If you can keep trades short after she pokes with rocket, you can easily outtrade or outburst her.

I do agree that the crit aoe doesn't make sense. It's still an autoattack, so the target should be crit, but I don't think the splash should be as well. It is her only waveclear ability, but it's still a tad strong in that sense.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Kayle's splash doesn't crit, why should Jinx's? For real, if they got rid of that she'd be fine, but since they won't, here are some other nerfs that'd keep her in line: Higher mana cost on W at early ranks so she can't spam it, considering it only costs 50 mana it's pretty damn spammable. Take away the extra damage from rockets, really don't understand why she gets bonus damage (that also crits, btw) on top of range and splash damage. Higher the ult cd at early levels. I'm thinking the same as Draven's, 110 seconds from her 90 seconds.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

if all of that holds her back so much, then why does she still have 30% pick rate with THE highest win rates for adc? (5th highest winrate in the game).

because its not holding her back enough. the minor nerf to her ult didnt affect her at all.

if her q and e are suppsoed to be kiting tools, give me one good reason, why both of these abilities grant vision.

yes, her snare isnt instant. and her passive needs at least an assist to trigger. but as an adc shes too good at everything. even with a lower base attack speed compared to fiora, her duelling potential in minigun mode beats almost every other adc. while her damage in rocket mode is only beat by twitch.

a lot of adc either go strongly into the role of a damage hypercarry in teamfights, or they have a lot of inbuilt utility and cc. jinx still has both. and that is a huge problem.

she is the lee sin of ad carries. the has too much of everything in her kit. just the right amount of mobility, cc, coupled with 2 of the strongest attack steroids that exist in this game.

{quoted}

A snare is NOT hard CC. You are capable of fighting back if she remains in attack range. You are NOT prevented from attacking her while snared. Can she escape you with it? Yes, absolutely. But she needs SOMETHING to escape with. If she uses it aggressively to pin you down for a fight, then all she's done is restrict your mobility because you can open fire on her right back without interruption even when snared.

If she is getting her passive triggered from an assist, that means you're already losing the fight since an ally died. If her team scores a death and she uses her passive to flee, consider yourself lucky they did not press the 5v4 advantage, or turn back around to 2v1 you.

Jinx does not need to give up either of the things you insist she does. She has high damage because that is her role. She only has enough utility to pin down fleeing targets (assuming they don't avoid the skillshots, hint hint). She does not have enough to be a "utility carry".

Twitch can also use his invisibility to flee, and he can do it on demand without requiring himself to already BE winning the fight like Jinx does. Twitch's invisibility is much more useful than Jinx's passive for safety.

a snare is still hard cc.

and the fact that you can auto attack her doesnt help you, if her auto attacks simply deal more damage than yours. she switches into minigun mode and most adc will not be able to outdamage a jinx. so even if you are ranged, and if you can attack back, youre still gonna lose the damage race.

"she has high damage because thats her role" is a typical phrase of a ranged ad main. and its not an argument to defend an overpowered kit. she has more combined than others in her role, which makes her a problem.

ashes role is the same as jinx. she would still lose by miles in a direct fight or comparison between the two. and so are most of the others.

as far as twitch goes, his invisibility gets delayed by damage. its a really really shitty escape, and will in a realistic scenario only work as such if he burns flash.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i would say there are two factors that push jinx over the top.

the attack speed of her minigun and her passive. it causes an effect, where if she wins only one fight, shes winning too hard. one death in enemy team usually triggers her passive which allows her to snowball throughout the fight, and keep the passive rolling.

the attack speed on her minigun allows her to chew through turrets way to fast. meaning after she wins a fight, she can take turrets and objectives faster than other ad carries.

its a typical jinx lane, where when you have to recall only once, it means you lose your turret to her.

while on the other hand, she doesnt show significant weaknesses in teamfights.

i dont think riot is gonna pull a lee sin on her and keep her like this for years. with a win + pickrate like this, she will get nerfed, and in the end she will get the unecessary parts of her kit removed.

the best way to start is to remove the unecessary vision on her spells, the trigger on the passive for assists, and the total attack speed and ramp up of the minigun. to make her more vulnerable in case she gets caught, and to reduce her turret pushing ability.

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