Meddler has stated on Twitter that they specifically hammered her on-hit build in a micropatch yesterday:
https://twitter.com/RiotMeddler/status/1105258532230721536
EDIT: I get people may disagree with comments I make below, but this part, the main post, is not an opinion. It's a statement of fact. So I don't get the downvotes.
Hemulen Magi18 votesShould have given a small nerf to rageblade/botrk and a small buff to nashor's tooth to encourage a shift to AP on-hit while simultaneously weakening Vayne.
If on-hit Neeko was OP, and even shoutcasters called her a clone of Vayne, then isn't Vayne too strong too?
Oleandervine6 votes[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:51:34.873+0000)
Should have given a small nerf to rageblade/botrk and a small buff to nashor's tooth to encourage a shift to AP on-hit while simultaneously weakening Vayne.
No, they were specifically nerfing Neeko here, not the items that would ripple and hit too many other champions.
Alzon4 votesWhy are you being downvoted? Rageblade doesn’t need a nerf just because Vayne and Yi abuse Phantom Hit - those champions just need the key abilities decoupled from Phantom Hit. Everyone else who uses the item is fine. Bork definitely doesn’t need a nerf, and Nashor’s definitely doesn’t need any changes either - it has plenty of people who viably build it.
When a certain champion abuses an item or rune that is fine on most other champions, nerf the champion. Avoid the Riot Special by minimizing blanket nerfs/buffs.
Karn Bishop4 votesBecause there are twats on the board who think their opinion is the only one, i was once even told that i had no right to voice my thoughts and opinions because it was not clear enough for their liking, like how arrogant must you be to declare someone banned from posting because they don't meet your random requirements for quality?
Bishasaurus Flex1 votesIsn't that what happens when posts get "below threshold" and disappear?
Z3Sleeper1 votesEh that's really when overwhelming opinion is that that opinion sucks. It's not just one asshole saying your opinion is invalid.
Or when one guy has 15 alt accounts and gets the downvote snowball rolling.
Partholonian2 votesHas there ever been a version of Phantom Hit that wasn't abused?
I get that Riot wants to have something that allows you to stack things faster like AS but is somehow cooler than AS, but it's just too big a difference to go from 3 hits to proc to 2 hits to proc. And 3-hit passives are a meme for a reason, there legitimately are a ton of them in the game.
Revert rageblade to one of its previous non-Phantom-Hit versions and stop playing whack-a-mole with the latest cheese build (and hurting legitimate builds of the same champion in the process).
Neeko isn't the problem. And because of that, Rageblade will still have to be addressed eventually, resulting in her being nerfed for nothing.
Ahri Baka3 votes[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:51:34.873+0000)
Should have given a small nerf to rageblade/botrk and a small buff to nashor's tooth to encourage a shift to AP on-hit while simultaneously weakening Vayne.
If on-hit Neeko was OP, and even shoutcasters called her a clone of Vayne, then isn't Vayne too strong too?
What do you mean Bro , Neeko is a mage , they can always hotfix everything a mage does that Forgot about the AD bias ? Apparently they think a 56% Neeko with 6% pick rate is op and should be hotfixed while some champions had 53% winrate BUT 30% pick rate I still never saw a mage having a high winrate with a high pick rate and didn't get insta nerfed next patch
Moody P13 votes12%.
It was 12%. And climbing, alongside her ban rate, alongside the fact she climbed to 60% win rates in Masters.
Trying to reframe an objectively overpowered champion getting rightfully nerfed as bias is ridiculous.
Boltonator3 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-12T15:04:35.620+0000)
12%.
It was 12%. And climbing, alongside her ban rate, alongside the fact she climbed to 60% win rates in Masters.
Trying to reframe an objectively overpowered champion getting rightfully nerfed as bias is ridiculous.
I feel like the nerf was justified if only because a mage should never be able to go AS/AD and do so well at the professional level. It reminds me of the time AD Malzahar was a thing ((granted he did have to rely on his voidlings to make it work but I digress...))
Moody P5 votesI don't care about what she buys, I care that she's overpowered
Neeko could be meta as AS champion if she wants.
Alzon5 votesAD Malzahar was never professionally viable, I believe. We had some guys playing it high up on the ladder, like Aqua Dragon (he might have been the only one actually), but I never saw nor heard of it in pro play.
MankeyMadness2 votes[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-03-12T14:29:45.429+0000)
What do you mean Bro , Neeko is a mage , they can always hotfix everything a mage does that Forgot about the AD bias ? Apparently they think a 56% Neeko with 6% pick rate is op and should be hotfixed while some champions had 53% winrate BUT 30% pick rate I still never saw a mage having a high winrate with a high pick rate and didn't get insta nerfed next patch
Nothing should ever reach CLOSE to 56% that's beyond ridiculous
Ahri Baka1 votesNothing should ever reach CLOSE to 56% that's beyond ridiculous
56% winrate while having 6% pick rate is nothing compared to a champion that reached 53% winrate with 30+ Pick rate , Yes I'm talking about Lucian , he had those stats for a long time in season 8 Vayne atm , 52.43% winrate 22.90% pick rate
You know if Neeko reaches 30% pick rate as Lucian did , she would barely have 51% winrate at highest if Lucian in his days had only 6% pick rate , he would have 60% winrate
Ragnaveil1 votesIssue is, you can't compare her to an AD. The build was being used in more than one role, and AD's have a higher pick rate due to how small that champ pool is for that role.
Ahri Baka1 votesIssue is, you can't compare her to an AD. The build was being used in more than one role, and AD's have a higher pick rate due to how small that champ pool is for that role.
The number of Marksmen in the game is kinda the same number as mages
Leetri1 votesThere's almost twice as many mages as there are marksmen, what are you on about? I count 31 mages and 19 marksmen, but those marksmen include Corki and Kindred, champions that aren't played as traditional marksmen.
Ahri Baka1 votesThere's almost twice as many mages as there are marksmen, what are you on about? I count 31 mages and 19 marksmen, but those marksmen include Corki and Kindred, champions that aren't played as traditional marksmen.
How about counting them ?
Leetri1 votesIt's not like it's hidden knowledge, just check the wiki yourself. Mages: Jayce, Xerath, Lux, Ziggs, Zoe, Vel'Koz, Anivia, Rumble, Aurelion Sol, Ryze, Cassiopeia, Swain, Karthus, Taliyah, Malzahar, Viktor, Morgana, Vladimir, Ahri, Orianna, Annie, Sylas, Brand, Syndra, Karma, Twisted Fate, LeBlanc, Veigar, Lissandra, Zyra and Neeko. Technically Varus is classed as a mage too, but I don't count him since his primary class is marksman. 31 in total. 32 if you wanna count Varus. The mage list could be longer if you count specialists such as Azir and Fiddlesticks, but I won't. Marksmen: Ashe, Kog'Maw, Caitlyn, Lucian, Corki, Miss Fortune, Draven, Sivir, Ezreal, Tristana, Jhin, Twitch, Jinx, Varus, Kai'Sa, Vayne, Kalista, Xayah and Kindred. That's 19 marksmen, but Corki is a midlaner and Kindred are a jungler, so that's 17 champions that go bot and are classed as marksmen. Again, if you count specialists that's Graves and Quinn but they're not played bot so they still don't count.
Ahri Baka1 votesIt's not like it's hidden knowledge, just check the wiki yourself. Mages: Jayce, Xerath, Lux, Ziggs, Zoe, Vel'Koz, Anivia, Rumble, Aurelion Sol, Ryze, Cassiopeia, Swain, Karthus, Taliyah, Malzahar, Viktor, Morgana, Vladimir, Ahri, Orianna, Annie, Sylas, Brand, Syndra, Karma, Twisted Fate, LeBlanc, Veigar, Lissandra, Zyra and Neeko. Technically Varus is classed as a mage too, but I don't count him since his primary class is marksman. 31 in total. 32 if you wanna count Varus. The mage list could be longer if you count specialists such as Azir and Fiddlesticks, but I won't. Marksmen: Ashe, Kog'Maw, Caitlyn, Lucian, Corki, Miss Fortune, Draven, Sivir, Ezreal, Tristana, Jhin, Twitch, Jinx, Varus, Kai'Sa, Vayne, Kalista, Xayah and Kindred. That's 19 marksmen, but Corki is a midlaner and Kindred are a jungler, so that's 17 champions that go bot and are classed as marksmen. Again, if you count specialists that's Graves and Quinn but they're not played bot so they still don't count.
I really can't call Sylas/Vlad/Jayce as mages , sure they are classified as mages , but they are way different than mages From Marksmen there are also Teemo and Quinn Yes , not all marksmen go bot lane , it's the same as mages , half of them aren't playable in mid , 21 Marksmen and 27 isn't a huge difference
kingDeDeDarius1 votesWho would ever call jayce a mage? Or sylas even who is much more an appointment bruiser
Ahri Baka1 votesWho would ever call jayce a mage? Or sylas even who is much more an appointment bruiser
Well , him , I don't really even know how Sylas is counted as a mage
Z3Sleeper1 votesBurst mage. Doesn't quite fit the assassin bill nor is he tanky enough outside off-meta tank builds to be a fighter.
Can possibly qualify as a skirmisher.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesI would have guessed that he counts as a battle mage. Short range? Check. Can deal constant damage? Check. Has some form of durability built in his kit? Check.
Z3Sleeper1 votesThe difference between Riot's burst and battle mage classifications seems to boil down to AoE or single target and sustained damage vs burst damage.
Burst Mages aim to single out vulnerable targets by locking them down and following up with a devastating barrage of damage from range. Burst Mages struggle heavily against beefier targets who can shrug off their initial spike of damage.
Battlemages (also known as Warlocks) get into the middle of the fray, seeking to wreak havoc upon the entire enemy team with their overwhelming sustained area damage. Due to their relatively short (but not melee) combat ranges and the need to burn down their opponents over time, Battle Mages have significant defensive capabilities that range from sustaining endlessly to literally defying death for a short period of time.
Due to those two factors, Sylas falls more into Burst Mage.
Chembaron Yamada1 votes? But the battle mage description fits him much more.
He is short ranged. He is AoE focused (his main damage sources, Q and passive, are AoE, ult can be too). He has defensive capabilities with his insane healing.
I don't understand how you come up with the conclusion that he is a burst mage after reading these descriptions. For me he has clearly written battle mage all over his face.
Z3Sleeper1 votesW is single, E is single and passive is an on-hit (which requires attacking a single target, probably the one you're loading ur single target spells onto), mostly single.
Q is basically single as well (are you really hitting multiple people with Q + Q2 that often? Nah).
Also ult can be single target as well, goes both ways so we leave it out.
In practice he's a single target burst mage, thus the burst mage title.
I mean, if you're really bursting multiple targets with Sylas, you're pretty fed. Like, compare him to Vlad's AoE teamfighting, it's incomparable.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesJust because his AoE is not as good as other mages does not mean he has no AoE.
And saying that passive doesn't count as AoE because you have to attack a target doesn't make sense. Jinx has to auto attack a target with fishbones, too. But I highly doubt that anyone is going to claim that her Q does not count as AoE because of that.
Also another point to consider: Sylas is supposed to be an AP bruiser. He lacks the proper itemization for it, but that was the goal. And an AP bruiser already screams that he has to be a battle mage by design.
A burst mage is the equivalent of a long range assassin. They are squishy, but they immediately blow up key targets with their ranged damage. The equivalent for AP bruisers in these subclasses is battle mage. Since bruisers are supposed to deal constant damage while being tanky. Sylas is supposed to be an AP bruiser, so applying that logic, he has to be intended as a battle mage.
Z3Sleeper1 votesI'm just saying dude, in practice, he's a single target damage dealer. His attacks are techincally AoE but mostly for the virtue of being skillshots left on the ground for the target to potentially dodge.
His Q is akin to a Karthus Q. While sure it's AoE, it's really meant as a single target attack. The AoE on the ground's purpose is moreso to act as a counterplay mechanic for the target.
And his passive is akin to Diana's passive. Sure it hits multiple people, but more times than not she's hitting a single target with it.
So yes he does do AoE, but more as a secondary effect.
Battle Mages though, such as Swain, Vlad and Viktor, are dealing primarily AoE damage. Swain Q, W, E, R; Vlad W, E, R; Viktor W, E, R are all meant for hitting multiple targets and it shows in teamfights where they are typically responsible for a huge chunk of multiple enemies' health bars simultaneously. Sylas on the other hand is taking targets down one by one outside of his ultimate.
I mean, go play Sylas or watch videos of people playing him. Rarely are they ever wiping teams without a team wiping ultimate like Swains. They're taking down targets one by one while hardly damaging secondary targets whatsoever.
Like look at Diana too. 4/5 of her abilities are AoE, yet more often than not she's really only doing damage to her primary target.
Also Sylas is officially classified as a burst mage.
Chembaron Yamada1 votesSource for him being officially classified as a burst mage?
Leetri1 votesRiot would. Jayce is classed as an Artillery Mage, while Sylas is a Burst Mage.
Leetri1 votesTeemo and Quinn are not marksmen, they're specialists. I'm going by official classifications, AKA the only ones that matters. Otherwise you're just arguing semantics, and I could call every single enchanter a mage as well since technically they are mages just focused on utility instead of damage. And AP assassins are just mages with mobility instead of CC. And tanks are just mages with durability instead of damage. Get my point? You could split so many hairs and argue semantics, which is why it's better to just stick to the official classes.
Ahri Baka1 votesTeemo and Quinn are not marksmen, they're specialists. I'm going by official classifications, AKA the only ones that matters. Otherwise you're just arguing semantics, and I could call every single enchanter a mage as well since technically they are mages just focused on utility instead of damage. And AP assassins are just mages with mobility instead of CC. And tanks are just mages with durability instead of damage. Get my point? You could split so many hairs and argue semantics, which is why it's better to just stick to the official classes.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesThey do count, they're marksmen.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesNot even close to twice as many bud
kingDeDeDarius1 votesNot even close to twice as many bud, and trying not to count corki or kindred because they aren't playing "traditional" role doesn't discount them, unless you want to discount champs like brand who don't play traditional mage role anymore either.
Z3Sleeper1 votesI think they should both be discounted if we're comparing roles (mid vs bot) with some exceptions (such as Vel'Koz, Xerath, Lux, Annie, Corki and Quinn, who can be viably played mid/ADC). I wouldn't count the mages/ADC that aren't played mid or ADC that much though, such as Brand, Zyra, Graves and Kindred.
I think that still comes out pretty even.
According to my standards it'd be:
vs
(Sylas and Azir are kinda outliers too I agree. You can take those out if you want.)
So yeah, still pretty even even with the exclusions.
Neo Cyrus1 votes[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:51:34.873+0000)
Should have given a small nerf to rageblade/botrk and a small buff to nashor's tooth to encourage a shift to AP on-hit while simultaneously weakening Vayne.
If on-hit Neeko was OP, and even shoutcasters called her a clone of Vayne, then isn't Vayne too strong too?
The problem with nerfing Rageblade is that it would nerf Kai'Sa and it's extremely expensive as it is for what it gives. Then again I'd be alright with outright removing it. It seems only problematic champions ever use it.
SiG DxD2 votesvayne and riven seem to be immune to nerfs for alot longer than everyone
Sir Saltarin10 votesNice, now she can be back to be a niche mage on soloQ and unviable on pro play since her kit as a mage sucks.
Don't get me wrong, current on hit Neeko was busted and needed to be nerfed.
SweedishGunner2 votesOn hit Neeko needed nerfs but I think it's the items making her busted. Her W isn't OP in a normal mage build.
Same shit that happened to Viktor when Iceborn and Klepto made him broken top, they needed his Q which wasn't op in a normal mage build.
Salvor Hardın4 votesI very much agree with the Nerf to the AD and the W, but the attack speed nerf did not seem right, as it also hits hard to the Neeko AP.
I would have preferred to have the attack range reduced from 550 to 525
Oleandervine5 votes[{quoted}](name=Salvor Hardın,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:53:43.864+0000)
I very much agree with the Nerf to the AD and the W, but the attack speed nerf did not seem right, as it also hits hard to the Neeko AP.
Her biggest issued with the on hit build WAS her attack speed, so that's probably the most significant way to stop the on hit Neeko from cropping up. I think it's a pretty big stretch to claim that it's a hard hit to AP Neeko, who mainly uses her spells to burst opponents down, with her autos being an afterthought.
Malix Farwin3 votesHer biggest issued with the on hit build WAS her attack speed, so that's probably the most significant way to stop the on hit Neeko from cropping up. I think it's a pretty big stretch to claim that it's a hard hit to AP Neeko, who mainly uses her spells to burst opponents down, with her autos being an afterthought.
No the biggest issue was with the items. the AS nerf hurts non on hit to the point where building AS on non on-hit neeko may actually be required now. The champion is back in the gutter now.
Oleandervine5 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YApL76Ei,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-12T13:56:22.410+0000)
No the biggest issue was with the items. the AS nerf hurts non on hit to the point where building AS on non on-hit neeko may actually be required now.
How does an attack speed nerf hurt a burst mage who's primary damage is intended to come from Q,E, and R?
Sir Saltarin9 votesA mage needs to farm and stay in lane you know, and even if your core gameplay as mage Neeko isn't your W you still use a lot aa's to trade.
I've seen aswell the W buff but this change it's still a nerf overall for mage Neeko since you will max W the last so you only notice the buff on lategame.
So yes, mage Neeko is also nerfed.
Salvor Hardın6 votesNormally it does not reach the damage of the abilities, and one has to rely on the 3 AA to finish an opponent, this nerf reduces like in 35% her speed of attack to level 18. Taking a Dragon, Tower or any other objetive It's being weakened, too.
Boltonator4 votesNot sure the AS nerf was really necessary...but that’s League balancing for ya, taking out the faulty sink faucet and the entire sink as well.
Oleandervine5 votesNot sure the AS nerf was really necessary...but that’s League balancing for ya, taking out the faulty sink faucet and the entire sink as well.
It was probably done to remove any attempts to run the build anymore.