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The Issues with Ivern Megathread [Incoming Wall of Text]

Eedat··41 votes·2,445 views

There have been a lot of threads about this guy, a few of them my own. People keep asking "what is wrong with him exactly". I've commented what some of his problems are in the past, but I can't just list them out every single time. I'm going to list out some issues to get them in one place. The first few points and pretty much copy/paste from a thread I made awhile ago and some other issues I've pointed out since then.

1) His build is insanely cheap while still being extremely effective

A Jungler that builds nothing but ridiculously cheap, but very effective support items is rocking a 57% win rate because of it.

These builds are so insanely cheap compared to any other build path, but are just as effective.

Lets do some comparisons with other popular champs:

Caitlyn : item 3031 item 3085 item 3006 item 3094 item 3072 item 3036 = 16,300 Gold

Darius : item 3071 item 3111 item 3742 item 3065 item 3143 item 3026 = 15,100 Gold

Ahri : item 3165 item 3285 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 = 16,550 Gold

Zed : item 3142 item 3147 item 3111 item 3071 item 3156 item 3026 = 15,900 Gold

Ezreal : item 3004 item 3078 item 3158 item 3153 item 3036 item 3139 = 16,533 Gold

Riven : item 3142 item 3071 item 3111 item 3814 item 3074 item 3026 = 16,000 Gold.

Graves : item 1412 item 3071 item 3047 item 3812 item 3046 item 3036 = 15,500 Gold.

Orianna : Same as Ahri = 16,550 Gold.

Then you get...

Ivern : item 3174 item 3107 item 3158 item 3190 item 3504 item 3109 = 11,900 Gold.

These are fair. You could sub in or out a GA for a damage item and vice versa to change costs by 1k, but these are fair.

Being cheap does not hinder it from being just as effective as any of these builds, however. Which brings me to the next point.

2) Even though his build is ridiculously cheap, it does not fall off in the lategame

Why is it that a build that costs 4-5k less than any other build allowed to be as effective, if not MORE EFFECTIVE, as them? He gets huge powerspikes early and his build doesnt even fall off.

He still has a 55% winrate past the 40 minute mark

http://champion.gg/champion/Ivern/Jungle

How can you justify that such an insanely cheap build is allowed to stand anywhere remotely close to the same level of power as a build that costs 4k more gold?

Honestly this overlaps with a few of these items (cough)item 3107 item 3190(cough) being blatantly overtuned.

3) He has without a doubt the easiest clear by far

By a large margin. Much easier than even Graves. When the jungle changed for season 7, it got much more difficult and time consuming to clear. This didn't effect Ivern at all. Every other champion is taking more damage and more time to clear. Except Ivern. Yeah, he loses health for his passive. Who cares? Its not nearly as much as damage any other jungler would take clearing a buff, krugs, or raptors.

Just because he has a different jungle path doesn't mean it's difficult. Different =/= harder. One more time.

Different =/= harder

We got that? Good.

4) His 2 second buff steals are unfair and overpowered

The ability to steal buffs practically right from in front of your face is not fair. There is supposed to be a risk associated with invading. Ivern bypasses a lot of this risk. It's supposed to take time to clear which could mean you're getting collapsed on. Not Ivern though. Steals your buff in 2 seconds, throws a Q if you show up, and blast cones over the wall to safety.

You don't even have enough time to to make it from Wolves to stop him from stealing your blue. Multiple times I've dropped a ward on Blue and started my wolves so I would have Smite ready and Ivern strolled up and stole it before I could even stop him.

You just dont have enough wards anymore to keep track of him with the introduction of blast cones. You can try and maybe you'll get lucky. Maybe.

5) His shield doesnt lose the damage or utility even if you pop it

Janna's target loses the bonus AD

Morgana's target loses its effects.

Sion can't use the second cast of his shield

Skarner loses his bonus movement speed

Ivern still gets full effects when broken

?

Kind of self explanatory. Why is this?

There are a few more minor things, but I'm tired of typing. Feel free to comment below.

This is my list of a few reason that add up to why Ivern is so insanely strong right now. I obviously can't convey this in every thread about him, so I'll just redirect people here from now on.

50 Comments

EndlessSorcerer19 votes

Don't forget his ability to duplicate buffs. While often underestimated, the ability to have two champions with each buff is very powerful.

Eedat9 votes

I dunno. I tried to point out things that were causing issues as opposed to everything his kit does. The double buffs are unqiue to Ivern, but I dont think thats what is pushing him over the edge. I feel its ok to leave untouched if a few of these other things get looked at

HentEye5 votes

I can tell you for a fact that blue side Ivern giving his friendly Cait a red buff for free pretty much means that bot's opponents have to sit back and never touch her.

Volibear Boss2 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget his ability to duplicate buffs. While often underestimated, the ability to have two champions with each buff is very powerful.

I really loved playing toplane against a enemy premade top/jungle, he had redbuff every few minutes.

sta supra1 votes

remember that ivern being a support means he cant really use the red buff as much as others (especially since he doesn't even attack the jg camps!) so its more a trade of who has the buff then 2 buffs. blue buff can still be a pain as ivern can still use it well but the reason most junglers leash the blue buff for there mids is because they dont need it as much after first clear AND ivern's build path give him natural regen meaning its even less effective then other junglers. for these reasons im going to agree with OP that while ivern can have his issues, his buff transfer is not a problem that needs solving so much as other parts of his kit.

World Ender12 votes

Let me sum this up in one sentence: He is a support that gets a jungler's income. This is the inherent problem with Ivern, and honestly it shows the major flaws in the current state of the support class. The fact that the basic limiting factor of whether a support is good or not is their level of income means that if a support suddenly has access to more income, they become unstoppable because their items are so cheap and base values are so good.

Hawkefire2 votes

Frankly, this is why I feel they need to readjust the income of supports. They should be on-par with the jungler's income (not more than that though). After finding a way to tweak the income so that it is similar to the junglers, then they should adjust the costs of their items so that they are similar to the costs of items that a jungler would be expected to build.

YumaS2Astral5 votes

Then there comes another problem: How can we adjust the income of supports, while preventing abuse?

Imagine mages like Brand or Zyra being able to abuse that. It would be insane.

Weasel Kensei2 votes

Dawngate did it with the role system they had in place. Players chose their role in lobby alongside their character (other players could see their desired role).

Gladiator [our solo laners and ADCs] This role is for players who want to farm lane minions as their primary source of vim. Shapers who fit into this role will often be the carry for their team, sacrificing early game strength for late game dominance. (You gain 200% increased Vim for scoring a killing blow on a minion. Melee Shapers will store 50% of the total Vim a nearby minion is worth if they fail to kill it. On the next minion kill you will gain any stored bonus Vim up to a maximum of 3 stacks.)

Tactician [our supports] This role is for players who want to support their allies in lane. The benefits allow you to earn vim while harassing, zoning, and setting up kill opportunities for your lane partner. ( The amount of Vim gained for being near lane minions when they die is increased to 200% of normal. You gain 20 bonus Vim when you damage an enemy Shaper with a ranged attack or ability. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. You gain an additional 20 bonus Vim when you damage and enemy Shaper with a melee attack.)

Hunter [our junglers] This role is for players who want to earn their vim and experience from killing the jungle monster camps, which is known as Jungling. The benefits give you the damage and sustain to quickly clear the camps with healthy lifebars, so you can go gank the lanes and capture the Spirit Wells. ( You do 10% more damage to jungle creatures. When you kill a jungle creature, you will heal for 2.5% of the creature's maximum Health. When you kill a jungle creature there is a 25% chance you will gain 30 bonus vim.

Predator [LeBlanc and Fizz... basically snowbally hypercarry champs] This role is for players who want play aggressive and get kills; for themselves, or their team. You can accomplish this by aggressively laning, acting as a part-time jungler who focuses on ganks, wandering around and invading the enemy's side of the map to catch them out of position, or coming up with your own strategy to score kills. ( The Vim gained for killing an enemy shaper is increased to 150% of normal. The Vim gained for assists against an enemy shaper is increased to 200% of normal. The experience gained for a kill or assist on an enemy shaper is increased to 130% of normal. The Vim gained for killing spirit well workers is increased to 200% of normal.

Each of those roles gave you a set of bonuses that dictated the optimal way to play the character you chose. Looking carefuly at that you can see a lot of the effects of certain items in LoL, and this role system was an evolution of that. It also meant that supports that played well could even have as much or more income than the carries if they were playing better.

Everyone had a ward, and there were no "special wards" but one character did have a passive that gave them a slightly superior ward.

This all came down to being able to play the game with traditional MOBA position concepts, while no one having to be the "ward bitch" like in League. Incomes came down to playing to your role well and pressing momentum and taking objectives, scoring kills when you could and even the supports could finish the game with the most money if they were a great support. Happened to me more than a few times.

Eedat1 votes

Sorry, but supports having a Jungler's income just doesnt make sense at all. How are they going to have the same income with no farm? Why wouldn't any role just abuse this?

Hawkefire1 votes

Potentially, but the way you do it is using the support items used for gold generation. Essentially find better/alternate ways for supports to get their income.

It wouldn't be easy to set up of course, but it should be doable, and if supports end up being too powerful when like this, then we will have to adjust those supports so that they are not oppressive. Odds are it would require a lot of number shifts and probably a couple kits to be changed to accommodate for these changes.

Eedat1 votes

You're missing the point. If Support can passively generate as much gold as someone while not having to CS or anything, why wouldnt everyone fust do it? How does it even make sense?

Hawkefire1 votes

Why would they be "passively" generating gold?

There are far more ways of increasing gold generation for sup[ports than simply increasing passive generation of gold.

Heroquet1 votes

And then you have things like Hexakill, where Taric reaches juggernaut level, Leona becomes the Vanguard's representative, and Sona snipes on sight because they get a regular income.

Skorch8 votes

I sort of disagree on the shield. I see a lot of people complaining about the fact it still has its 2nd effect after the shield pop. But at the same time it...

  1. Helps with Iverns lack of damage outside his auto passive.
  2. Has the lowest bases out of all of those (except Sion) The reason Sions is smaller is because it scales nicely with HP, meaning Sion EASILY can get 300-400+ Shields. Iverns has a 190 Base with Decent AP scaling, but because of his build he doesnt get too much of it. ANY damage dealer can pop the shield with 1 ability.

That is why i think the effect persists.

The rest is pretty spot on though.

TricolorStar8 votes

Ivern is powerful, yes. But he is not this unstoppable wall of pain everyone keeps saying he is. Y'all keep calling for some serious changes or hard nerfs, but here's the thing:

Ivern has clear weaknesses. Very, very clear weaknesses. Literally all you have to do is either catch him at your buff during his first clear or camp him at one of his. That's it! He's a support, not a tank. Not a fighter. Not a mage. He does very little damage compared to other junglers, so just shit on him early game and you'll win.

How do I know this? I'm an Ivern main. Been playing him since he came out religiously. Ivern is one of the only junglers that actually has hard weaknesses. Graves? Very little weaknesses. Lee Sin? Please, don't make me laugh. Ivern relies on his team to secure the kills and to win the game. He himself cannot do it.

Don't punish a support for supporting. He (and Rakan now, kinda) are the only supports that are true support-junglers, and that's weird because we're not used to the extra utility. What needs to happen is that the jungle needs to become more friendly to a more diverse range of champions. Right now, only tank/fighter hybrids can jungle because it's far too punishing for squishies like Kindred to clear without putting themselves on the line. The only reason Ivern can do it is because of his passive.

tldr: Ivern is doing what supports are meant to do, and his success in the jungle is a symptom of a stale, unfriendly jungling environment that heavily favors melee tank/fighters.

TheSingularity1 votes

Actually if Ivern wants to do damage he can. Full on hit ivern with W max is obscenely strong. Like 1v1 fed quinns, xin zhaos and jax's level strong. Ivern item 1419 item 3022 item 3091 item 3006 item 3124 item 3115

It Hertz When IP1 votes

except then you sacrifice a lot of his supporting power, and if you want bruiser junglers there are better choices later game.

TricolorStar1 votes

{quoted}

Actually if Ivern wants to do damage he can. Full on hit ivern with W max is obscenely strong. Like 1v1 fed quinns, xin zhaos and jax's level strong. Ivern item 1419 item 3022 item 3091 item 3006 item 3124 item 3115

Yeah but that all hinges on him having bushes.

TheSingularity1 votes

I know. Good thing they're spammable and on a decent cooldown

Doozku5 votes

He should get less gold from his marks to make up for his cheaper build. IMO his instant camp steal can be cheap but he has no kill pressure and weak escapes. Every new champion has some kind of powerful moment that defines them but also feels frustrating to play against.

Ivern: Oneshot's camps Kled : Gets massive chunk of health for fighting and can take his whole team into the enemy team Camille : Can remove your ability to escape and force you to fight her. Taliyah : Can create a lanewide wall across the map and force you to waste flash or fight a losing battle.

I agree that Ivern has too much insane stuff, but I feel that he shouldn't lose his counterjungling since that's one of the defining moments of him. I'd rather take away something like buff-sharing or insane shield.

Salson2 votes

Makes sense, giving his Passive 90% gold efficiency and full XP would easily fix his cheap build.

TheSingularity1 votes

If I may, I've been on both sides of kled and while he does make certain match ups hell (like darius, teemo do). Other champions who are able to dictate when they want to fight/avoid him/have execute: Camille Darius Ekko Fiora Illaoi Jayce Kennen Yasuo turn this into a skill match up where the Kled has to out perform at every point otherwise he drops off in comparison.

While having specific match ups isn't optimal. Dodging his Q (obviously never that simple) item 3047 and freezing the lane at ur tower makes kled really risky, especially if you wittle him down til he loses skarl. A jungler can then block his ult if he tries to escape, gank a kled with no skarl (shity ms) or you can all in him after he uses W to farm.

Many try to simply out muscle a Kled, but kled is built (kit wise) to punish this by thriving in extended fights. I lose skarl against a riven after she ults me, I simply have to not pussy out and I can get skarl back within 4 W autos and a Q. If riven retreats she forces me to farm passively and run at her, allowing her to dictate the fight.

GelsominoKiller2 votes

I agreee.

It's also very thematic of him to "save" camps from the enemy jungler.

Ben Sharpio4 votes

basically, to sum up his whole identity: his kit is just too forgiving. With ivern being as strong as he is right now, anyone, even the most inexperienced junglers can play him because he ignores so many fucking rules about jungling. Him being janna of the jungle is a pretty accurate description, in a sense that he has the same level of braindead mechanics, with maximum effectiveness.

Also, riot refusing to add items that counter shields is a huge problem. Especially when a team gets lulu/ivern on their team, the game is practically over

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

I'm honestly shocked that a support build is actually not that much cheaper than a carry build. Ivern's build is only 4,000 gold cheaper than Riven's, which sounds like a lot but given that all of those builds require at least 11,900 gold, it's not nearly as big a discrepancy as I thought it would be.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

It is cheaper because a support is usually expected to have a lower income than other classes. However, because Ivern is a jungler, he has jungle levels of income, while working well with a support build. His passive allows him to bypass the need to build non-utility items that he would otherwise need to help with jungle clearing.

Velzard of Koz1 votes

Yes, we get it, the OP already said that. Specter's point is that while being cheaper, it still isn't THAT much cheaper for a class that's expected to have income disadvantage, while he directly compared it to a carry's build, who are far from such disadvantage, in this case Riven's being just 4000 gold more expensive.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I'm a support main. I know why its cheaper, I'd just never gone to the trouble to see how much cheaper it was though and was saying I'm surprised that its actually not AS cheap as I expected when compared to a carry build.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

you forgot his ability to prevent a melee from moving

between his Q insane low cd+2 sec snare, shield slow and obviously freaking daisy knocking you up constantly

The Deckowner2 votes

You forgot how Daisy pounds everyone who isn't Graves. Also every buff taken by his team(he doesn't even need to do the buff himself) can be given to two people. And most importantly, he is way to easy to play and require no understanding of the jungle to effectively jungle.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Nunu Syndra TahmKench DGAF about Daisy.

doiminat0r36002 votes

I personally think the idea of a "support" jungler was a bad one. He is able to carry with items alone. Getting utility of a support with the gold and farming of a high clear speed jungler is insane. The gold should be tuned down to about 2/3 of what it is now. Currently he is the lowest gold per minute jungler. But because of his common build, he doesn't need much gold.

KoKoboto1 votes

They should nerf the channel time and make it like 30s or something. Maybe make the health and mana cost a percentage so he always is risky in taking camps. Mid and late game the health and mana costs aren't that significant/near negligible.

DJMason887 votes

30 secs is wayyy too harsh.

xWaters1 votes

Why the fuck are you on some never ending Ivern crusade? Don't you read? Meddler said he is on the radar for some changes after 7.9, but he left Ivern out of this cycle to see how W nerfs affected him. He also wrote in his daily gameplay thoughts that he is going to look into increasing the shield CD in the early levels. Relax man..

EDIT: Graves is still better and faster at clearing the jungle. What are you on?

TwinkiePro1 votes

Faster? not even. Healthier? certainly. Ivern loses HP and mana, yet graves can usually pass a full clear without taking more than half his hp in damage.

Ivern and Irelia1 votes

I just made an in depth post of my own today. Id greatly appreciate it if you took a look at it.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xEcuPAmP-the-official-unoffcial-ivern-mains-discussion-on-ivern

Nevrankroaton1 votes

It is just that having an effective support (like Lulu top/mid was) allow carry player to be more durable and able to set their play. When you have two character that can shield/heal/peel/engage for the carry, it allow the carry to have more liberty and opportunity to express itself. It allow you to make someone who would possibly feed to actually not feed, making him not be behind in gold and experience.

Ivern, of course, has a number of huge mechanic that make him carry his team like put the ennemy jungler with less exp/income with his invade, actually allow even better tower dive than many jungler, deny vision, offer free buff to top or bot lane alongside with letting him being healthy on mana since he can take blue while giving it to his teammate.

But it is also important to realize that even if you olaf him, it is just the idea of jungle support or just support having viable income that make Ivern even stronger. Ivern is the typical champion that will be hard to nerf because you can nerf number or remove aspect of his gameplay (so he become Azir, and we all know how OP and stupid Azir was) but it isn't the only problem. Even if you make support item way more expensive, it will STILL be the idea that utility is actually far stronger sometime than other aspect.

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

the thing that makes ivern powerful is that the enemy jungler doesnt try to single him out enough. if the enemy jungler were to get 4 kills on ivern before 20 minutes and then use that gold and xp to snowball a lane then ivern would be worthless.

when fighting ivern look for the camps he's trying to take and then take them yourself - you'll cost him gold, xp, and he'll have lost hp.

GelsominoKiller1 votes

I'll share my opinion since this is a well made post.

  1. I agree completely. People forget how supp items being overtuned actually impacts ivern more than kit issues. Again, this is more of a item framework/supp position issue than anything else.

  2. perfectly on point again.

  3. i dont see this being a problem on a champ lacking damage and mobility. It's an unique strength of his.

  4. Again, i don't see the issue. His steals may be unfair early for sure, but it's very thematic of his character, and a strength you need to play around (remember: his steals may be fast but he cant CONTEST a buff). I'd like to preserve this aspect of his kit. I'd add that much of the safety of his invades is exacerbated by those cancerous blast cones.

  5. Removing the slow if the shield is popped is out of the question. If this was the case, his shield not being big at all, Ivern wouldnt simply function as a champion on a basic level. His ganks would be a joke, his damage output even more laughable and his peeling severely hurt.

You forgot to add the double buff generation. It's so hard to track down ita actual effectivenes. It is actually a non interactive, unintresting mechanic, yet it is op as fuck. In my opinion if it was removed Ivern's winrate would tank by 2-3% instantly.

Eedat1 votes

He doesnt lack mobility in the jungle. He Qs a camp and dashes to it

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

Because they would be a huge nerf for everyone playing the support role. These items are meant to be bought by champions with the low gold income of a support. Ivern on the other hand has the income of a jungler, which is significantly more and therefore can get all these items way earlier.

You shouldn't nerf every support in the game just because 1 champion is too strong while using these items...

Anhartamin1 votes

[deleted]

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Agreed, these items are too strong in my opinion and deserve nerfs.

Wyrmblade1 votes

These circlejerks get stranger by the day.

DeathBurst1 votes

1/ and 2/ aren't exactly specific to Ivern, even if he is the champ most impacted by it. But note that this is a totally decent Soraka build, or even for Nami or Sona.

3/ and 4/ I disagree that they are issues. You're right about the facts, not about it being OP or unfair. And I'm kinda surprised you mentioned these points but not the double buffs. If you consider the double buffs a unique and original strength but not unfair, why are you considering 3/ and 4/ to be unfair? They are really on the same level for me.

5/ I wholeheartedly agree with you. Probably the best nerf you can hit him with if need be (and well, I do think that need be).

Incarceration1 votes

1 & 2: He's on a jungler's income, that's why it just seems overbearing, and it feels like there is no counterplay.

DeathBurst1 votes

I know, that's why I said "he is the champ most impacted by it". Still, it's not an Ivern problem, it's an Items problem.

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