They are spending 2600 gold on this while you can spend 450 gold 
to negate 3/4 of it.
And dont act like squishies cant build because it builds into 
for AD or 
for AP. You have no excuse to not build this item, so if you arent willing to sacrifice like 5-10% of your damage to stop mages from dealing “true damage” to you then you aren’t allowed to complain.
JackMcSnipeyz12 votesIsnt that what mages say about lethality tho (which is worse than magic pen as a stat)?
Because i swear when assassins stack lethality mage players say zhonyas does nothing and lethality is OP.
D357R0Y3R3 votesthey don't understand that especially in season 9, going for resistances as a carry even the lightest item like is impossible
if it was possible, everyone in challenger would have done it
but since they're mage mains they will try to teach the best players to play league hahaha
Marshbouy2 votesit's the classic double standard. A 350 magic damage only shield is busted AF while becoming COMPLETELY INVULNERABLE while still be able to use certain abilities is "weak"
AHeroNamedHawke8 votesIsnt that what mages say about lethality tho (which is worse than magic pen as a stat)?
Because i swear when assassins stack lethality mage players say zhonyas does nothing and lethality is OP.
"lol just spend 450g on MR dude" "WTF I CANT SPEND 600g ON ARMOR ARE YOU INSANE I NEED LOST CHAPTER"
Classic mage brains
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2019-01-31T21:12:31.750+0000)
"lol just spend 450g on MR dude" "WTF I CANT SPEND 600g ON ARMOR ARE YOU INSANE I NEED LOST CHAPTER"
Classic mage brains
Its standard brains for every league player. They will not divert from their build path even if it benefits them.
JackMcSnipeyz1 votesWhy not buy armor boots? "You crazy? I need DAMAGE!"
Glossing over the fact they have the most efficent armor pen item in the game tacked onto boots, so efficent that taking a defensive boot option isnt even an option to them
Bears Dont Care1 votesWhy not buy armor boots? "You crazy? I need DAMAGE!"
Glossing over the fact they have the most efficent armor pen item in the game tacked onto boots, so efficent that taking a defensive boot option isnt even an option to them
Taking a defensive boot options is simply NOT an option. It is absolutely necessary to have a minimum of sorc boots.
JackMcSnipeyz1 votesSo it's fair for you to tell everyone else to waste gold and item slot on 1 item that wont be finished until late game, but not that mages use defensive options themselves?
Hmmmmm highly hypocritical of you
Bears Dont Care1 votesSo it's fair for you to tell everyone else to waste gold and item slot on 1 item that wont be finished until late game, but not that mages use defensive options themselves?
Hmmmmm highly hypocritical of you
You do not mean hypocritical, you mean contradictory. Hypocrisy is a matter of action, not philosophy.
As for the contradiction, there is not one. 450 gold for 25 MR 1100 gold for magic pen.
If they want to overcome this, they must build sorc boots AND oblivion orb to over come it. Even then, they overcome it by a mere 8 magic penetration.
If you were to go for null magic which is 720 gold, they would need a void staff to nullify it entirely.
yes, you spend 450 gold for a defensive item but this item allows you to resist their burst significantly, remain in lane to gain gold, and in later on in the game allows you to not get bursted down instantly.
In order for them to counter you, they MUST spend 2600 gold. This is not an option for many, many, many mages who do not wish to go magic penetration so early. They want mana and CDR which oblivion orb + sorc boots do not allow.
Now, as for the second part, as for WHY mages must get sorcerer boots it is a simple matter. MR scales as the game progresses. Sorc boots are a necessity to overcome this scaling, hence why the 450 gold for 25 MR is so very good. With every level you get, that is more magic resistance they must overcome.
That is the difference between mages and AD users. AD users can use every single boot. AP users must go sorc boots if they want their damage to be relevant.
There is much more to the game than just the singular lane
JackMcSnipeyz1 votesYou do not mean hypocritical, you mean contradictory. Hypocrisy is a matter of action, not philosophy
What? No, you are hypocritical. You're telling others to do a certien thing to fit your needs, but when we reverse the roles you exclude yourself and act as if it's different, it's not.
MR scales as the game progresses. Sorc boots are a necessity to overcome this scaling, hence why the 450 gold for 25 MR is so very good. With every level you get, that is more magic resistance they must overcome.
You know how this game works? Both armor and MR scale with levels, HOWEVER armor scales harder, you get more base armor than base MR as the game progresses, so if anything flat magic pen is stronger than lethality, as champions will always have more base armor than MR.
That is the difference between mages and AD users. AD users can use every single boot. AP users must go sorc boots if they want their damage to be relevant.
No, the difference is AD users dont have such a strong option so they can choose between boots, mages get the best stat on such a slot efficent item, which is part of the critic of mages easy access to flat pen.
There is much more to the game than just the singular lane
You're just making my point stronger.
Bears Dont Care1 votesWhat? No, you are hypocritical. You're telling others to do a certain thing to fit your needs, but when we reverse the roles you exclude yourself and act as if it's different, it's not.
Mages =/=Assassins=/=bruises=/=marksman They may all deal damage, but all of them deal damage in a different way and have different build requirements and flexibility. You cannot state "but they are both fruit" to justify sticking a tomato in a fruit salad.
You know how this game works? Both armor and MR scale with levels, HOWEVER armor scales harder, you get more base armor than base MR as the game progresses, so if anything flat magic pen is stronger than lethality, as champions will always have more base armor than MR.
You know why this is right? The number of penetration items available for mages is significantly less compared to the number of penetration items for AD users. That is why MR scales less and why armor can scale higher. Less penetration items= less MR to ensure both types of damage can remain relevant.
No,
Yes.
the difference is AD users dont have such a strong option so they can choose between boots, mages get the best stat on such a slot efficent item, which is part of the critic of mages easy access to flat pen.
Read what you stated outloud please. AD users don't have a strong option, and therefore they have flexibility. AP users have a strong option, which is why they are forced to take the only other flat penetration item for them in the game. The two are not supporting statements.
You're just making my point stronger.
To be honest, I believe you are viewing this emotionally not logically. AP users must go sorc boots because there are no other options available. Furthermore, it gives 18 penetration because the amount of MR available at base, is higher than it was prior to the removall of the rune system. Hence why void staff went from 35% to 40%
Daddy Ants1 votesIsnt that what mages say about lethality tho (which is worse than magic pen as a stat)?
Because i swear when assassins stack lethality mage players say zhonyas does nothing and lethality is OP.
But.... 
can negate 2.5 full lethality items...
1100 Gold cancelling out the lethality on 6900 gold of items...
Super useless /s
Moody P6 voteswe need a crit item that gives MR
Ephixus3 votesHell no...
Warlord Rhinark4 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:50:16.923+0000)
we need a crit item that gives MR
The ultimate anti-magic crusader:
Moody P2 votesThey downvoted me for speaking the truth
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-01-31T09:52:49.458+0000)
They downvoted me for speaking the truth
I miss building Force of Nature + Visage in Nexus Blitz and being near unkillable by AP.
LeftyRaydy1 votesI miss building Force of Nature + Visage in Nexus Blitz and being near unkillable by AP.
I miss orb of Winter on the ARAM Map.
agac42343 votesno they down voted you because i had a stupid idea that would make ADC super op. imagen being able to deal the most dmg in the game and not being able to get killed because u built dmg
saltran2 votesYou are the hero that adcs mains need.
General Matty1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:50:16.923+0000)
we need a crit item that gives MR
Yes.
On My Kill List1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T02:50:16.923+0000)
we need a crit item that gives MR
not sure why your being downvoted. this is a good suggestion.
boricCentaur16 votesSigh stop acting like , are good items there not. is very situational to make good use out of it there needs to be champions like 
. is just sucks it gives a bad amount of ad and a bad amount of mr it is only ok for a 5/6 item. So no you cant buy those items to stop pen since they will just hurt your build.
Alzon1 votesLook at what Maw gives you when its passive procs and then tell me that it’s a bad item again.
boricCentaur11 votesI did and it still sucks still only good as a 5 or 6 item maybe you should look at it no I'll tell what it does since you do not it gives a 350 magic shield, its ad goes up to 70, and it gives lifegrip sounds good but then you realize you only get it well under 30% hp and for 5 seconds it is basically a worst 
on bruisers and on assassins and adcs 30% on your health is very low most of the game like talon at level 15 has a base hp of 1849 so you will have to be at 554 to proc it and then your hp with the shield is 904 still not a lot it may save you but it you will not get any use out of the rest of it. Also have you even looked at the stats it gives like 50 ad is not a lot and the mr is not a lot too given that it gives no heath the 10% cdr is nice like there is no reason a assassin would build over almost anything since it just lowers there damage too much and it gives no hp bruisers will not want to build it over other items like the core items for assassins,bruisers, adcs are just better leaving it only as a 5 and 6 item and in fact it may not even be good a talon at level 15 with 
gets more ad and double the shield and the shield is easier to proc from and it is only a 60 second cooldown vs the 90 on and keep in mind that the ad and shield will be stronger from that point too.
Moonscourge2 votesSigh stop acting like
Mercurial has been one of the best items in the game for ages now. It's not good only if there is a Malzahar. It negates champions like Lux, Sejuani, Thresh.. any long ranged CC suddenly becomes meaningless and their engage will fail.
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzrO3EYQ,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2019-02-01T02:45:04.255+0000)
Mercurial has been one of the best items in the game for ages now. It's not good only if there is a Malzahar. It negates champions like Lux, Sejuani, Thresh.. any long ranged CC suddenly becomes meaningless and their engage will fail.
? XD
QSS = 90 second static cooldown.
Most CC is a fraction of that cooldown.
Salron3 votesyeah its not like those 2600g also give other stats oh wait
Dr Dog2 votesthe complaint with m pen isnt theses two items its the fact m pen is both more accessible to all ap users than armor pen is to ad champs and way more impactful, nowadays most mages have absolutely no mana issues after 
then they can go straight to 
for +18 m pen then 
for 15 more m pen, grievous wounds, some hp bulk and good ap then go for the 
for a whopping 40% mr shred all while getting 30% cdr from ludens and transcendence letting them spam spells that ignore most of the mr your gonna end up getting and still end up doing a ass-load of dmg from a usually very safe distance especially considering most mages grab a 
on top of all that.
and lets not ignore the fact it hurts a lot of ad users builds a LOT to rush these expensive mr items just to deal with most likely only one or 2 enemy champs and it could 100% end up costing them their lane if the enemy champion is someone who can abuse them getting early mr to deal with the mid laner for later in the game when their own enemy is ad
Modl Ryden l2 votesYeah... but what smart squishy is going to sink 450g into something that doesn't build into anything useful early game.
It's alllll about early game.
Marshbouy2 votes"just delay your powerspike by 450g and still not negate all of the Magic pen while we spend 2600 gold on items we were already going to buy"
go away k thx
taleofsonata2 votesMr in low quantity has always been a super strong stats, its the fact that people don't build them because it goes into super defensives items. Even tho they have mixed MR items that have overloaded passive.
Fang1 votesSo everyone has to spend gold to counter mages, only? Why do I have to build magic-resist-everything just to counter a Xerath/Zyra/Brand SUPPORT? There's a big bloody problem with the mage items combined with the fact that mages generally have very high base damage. MR doesn't do jackshit, running around like a headless chicken to dodge spells while getting CS because you can't get in range to poke a SUPPORT with ONE ITEM is a big fucking problem. If you're gonna tell me that I need to rush all of the items mentioned just to survive, then how much impact do you think I'm going to have against anyone that has Ninja tabi?
The problem is that mages can go for their core items without losing out on anything (Morello, Luden's, Liandry + Rylai, Rabbadon, Zhonyas, Void, RoA - whichever really). For MR to be efficient, you need HP as well; our main items don't give HP, few AD items (Frozen Mallet, Trinity Force) give HP. Needless to say, that's not the case for mages, because they get HP from most of their items by default, and god knows why that's the case. If I DO get in range to punish a mage that's been sitting behind a tower and spamming skillshots, why the hell do I have to deal with someone that has 2k+ HP and likely the armor from a Zhonya's as well? How do magic damage counters even remotely compare to the ones available to ADC's?
Paroe2 votesSo everyone has to spend gold to counter mages, only? Why do I have to build magic-resist-everything just to counter a Xerath/Zyra/Brand SUPPORT? There's a big bloody problem with the mage items combined with the fact that mages generally have very high base damage. MR doesn't do jackshit, running around like a headless chicken to dodge spells while getting CS because you can't get in range to poke a SUPPORT with ONE ITEM is a big fucking problem. If you're gonna tell me that I need to rush all of the items mentioned just to survive, then how much impact do you think I'm going to have against anyone that has Ninja tabi?
The problem is that mages can go for their core items without losing out on anything (Morello, Luden's, Liandry + Rylai, Rabbadon, Zhonyas, Void, RoA - whichever really). For MR to be efficient, you need HP as well; our main items don't give HP, few AD items (Frozen Mallet, Trinity Force) give HP. Needless to say, that's not the case for mages, because they get HP from most of their items by default, and god knows why that's the case. If I DO get in range to punish a mage that's been sitting behind a tower and spamming skillshots, why the hell do I have to deal with someone that has 2k+ HP and likely the armor from a Zhonya's as well? How do magic damage counters even remotely compare to the ones available to ADC's?
Do you happen to understand why it is AD+MR items dont give you HP? Because they have lifesteal. Also youre talking about cores... Every good bruiser builds trinity force, which is a one item core that has a powerspike equal to the old marksman 2 item core of IE+shiv.
Immobile mages usually have high base damage to make up for their immobility, and have scaling so they can burst down targets like marksmen and assassins because they usually lack sustained damage due to cool downs and having no AD. That whole "AD+ASP" thing is a LOT stronger than you think.
Fang1 votesDo you happen to understand why it is AD+MR items dont give you HP? Because they have lifesteal. Also youre talking about cores... Every good bruiser builds trinity force, which is a one item core that has a powerspike equal to the old marksman 2 item core of IE+shiv.
Immobile mages usually have high base damage to make up for their immobility, and have scaling so they can burst down targets like marksmen and assassins because they usually lack sustained damage due to cool downs and having no AD. That whole "AD+ASP" thing is a LOT stronger than you think.
Lifesteal is not efficient unless you have attack speed and high base AD while being able to get in range, chances are there are no minions nearby and you certainly won't chase down a Xerath/Ziggs/Brand/Lux or whatever when their spells barely have any CD. Most of them will have Morello which negates healing even further; the gold is just not worth the stats against the burst / grievous wounds / dot dmg.. It feels terrible to buy any of them because it rarely makes a difference, Dark Harvest is a thing as well, you don't even have to hit more than 2/3 spells to do enough damage later on in the game (Or 1 in case you're Karthus jungle, because spamming R and scaling your DH is a thing ).
It doesn't matter if you're immobile though, not all ADC's have a dash either. Most mages have slows/snares/stuns or the likes on one or more spells in their kit, that's usually plenty to keep someone at bay unless they flash on you -- but that's how it works for ADC's too. You can't say the CD's are long, they are not. You'd think that mana issues would be relevant, but not even that. I just want to be able to play ADC (Jinx, Twitch, Kalista) again without feeling like I'm handicapping myself. I'm spamming Zyra support at the moment on this acc just to prove a point. Frostfang needs a nerf so people will quit spamming mages on support and having the most dmg dealt at the end of all games while getting items at the same pace as midlaners would. Beyond that, it'd just be nice if the dmg output would get nerfed overall. Buff the mana regen on mages if needed, but give a window to allow actual counterplay; I don't see any sensible reason that mages should be allowed to deal the same amount of damage as assassins although on a lower CD, but from half across the map and to multiple targets if they please. :T
xDogMeatx1 votesyep why spend it on magic pen if you can buy a maw then become a drain tank be default. just buy a instead it does what magic pen does but better it doesnt fall off.
Wait, mages can buy merc instead of sorceres boots?
