Maokai's "Tank" Update has turned him into a Mage

Sugar Momma·May 12, 2017·157 votes·5,519 views

Maokai went from being best played as a top laner who built similar to Malphite to a support best built like Zyra. Great job, Riot!

111 Comments

RewtMay 12, 201742 votes

My favorite thing was when riot said that Maokai was never the best at anything and thats why he got such a hefty rework.

Lets just completely forget that maokai was the top tier tank for like 3-4 seasons straight.

DeathBurstMay 12, 201767 votes

He still wasn't the best at any specific need. He was jut good enough at everything, that's why he was a very contested pick. But his engages were still worse than Sejuani or Malphite, his peeling was still worse than Poppy, etc. For every single task, there was someone better than him, BUT he was medium+ on every task.

137434May 12, 20179 votes

Yup, Maokai was the epitome of "jack of all trades, master of none." The thing is in League being a generalist is extremely powerful, because it means you work well in just about every scenario (team comp, match up, etc). That is why he was reworked, to make him more of a niche pick that you want in certain scenarios, and not in others.

Sugar MommaMay 12, 20177 votes

But being a jack-of-all-trades is also a problem; if you are nerfed, you will never be picked as some other champion will do anything you do better.

Maokai was only ever a hotly contested pick or never picked as a result.

Baron of BreadMay 12, 20172 votes

Yeah, and that is bad (doesn't matter whether you are on the bad side or good side of being a generalist). Thus the update.

Serika ZeroMay 13, 20179 votes

i don't see why "jack of all trades" is a problem when they fucking design assassins with cc: ekko has slow, stuns leblank has snares and slows zed has slows talon has slows kha has slows fizz has knock up, slows

There's a lot of "generalists", or "jack of all trades" in this game. Here's a few: LeeSin - the poster boy Orianna - ~~the poster girl~~ Ahri - the poster girl Thresh - the support Nautilus - the tank, the pealer, the damage dealer, the wave pusher the dude underwater Ezreal - the, every season, there's a few items i'm using to break the game Azir - the guy that got gutted because he was good at everything

Like seriously, there's a lot of "generalist" heros in this game. Riot is just fucking picking favorites and fuck those that they don't like, for whatever reason.

They rarely to never truly tell you what the problem is or why they change stuff.

SkiasMay 12, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Yup, Maokai was the epitome of "jack of all trades, master of none." The thing is in League being a generalist is extremely powerful, because it means you work well in just about every scenario (team comp, match up, etc). That is why he was reworked, to make him more of a niche pick that you want in certain scenarios, and not in others.

Well yeah, you are absolutely right. Lee Sin, Maokai, Ahri, Lucian. All ultra powerful when even given the smallest advantages.

RewtMay 12, 20172 votes

Sure he wasnt the BEST at any one thing, But it didnt mean he was anywhere near par. His engage was Fantastic. Sure not as good as someone who's entire kit was designed around it, but still incredible. His Peel was Amazing. And actually... i think he had the best teamfight of any tank because of his ult.

RalanrMay 12, 20176 votes

Yeah you're only pointing out that he was a jack of all traits. Why the hell do you think he was the goto tank?

GGLineaRMay 12, 20176 votes

Jack of all *Trades is the phrase.

Sorry, that bothered me a lot. I feel better now.

RalanrMay 12, 20171 votes

My apologies. I've heard both honestly.

LordGeovanniMay 13, 20172 votes

You should sue who ever put jack of all traits into your vocabulary the phrase isnt even coherent.

YumaS2AstralMay 12, 201724 votes

He was basically the Lee Sin of tanks, then?

MelledoneusMay 12, 201746 votes

No, he was okay at everything, not better at everything. Big difference.

Wind WhistlerMay 13, 20171 votes

I can't believe fucking POPPY is peeling for ADCs now. This is just pathetic.

EvilUnicornLordMay 13, 20172 votes

Because all the mages decided they needed to become ADCs.

Of course, not mentioning anyone in particular... Lulu TwistedFate

Wind WhistlerMay 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because all the mages decided they needed to become ADCs.

Of course, not mentioning anyone in particular...

Lulu builds AD? I thought she just built attack speed.

EvilUnicornLordMay 13, 20172 votes

Why are we talking about Lulu?

I never specifically mentioned anyone, did I?

Bladerunner7777May 13, 20173 votes

I fear when Riot is looking to fk with the supports and ruining Nami because she's not "niche" enough.

This League of Niches thing is tiresome

3TWarriorMay 14, 20171 votes

very much so, especially when it was enjoyable when you could focus on strategy and teamwork instead of "oh wow, flashy things!"

at least warwick is a step in the right direction where his kit is still the same but has more to offer

EeyoreMay 13, 20171 votes

My issue with that cut-and-paste response is what exactly is Maokai now the best at? Zoning? Being a Warden was already one thing he did that most other tanks don't (there's a very shortlist of wardens, shorter now without Maokai) - but his ultimate just makes him another fairly generic vanguard/diver. One issue Riot posed with his kit was "At the moment he goes in and then just tries to stay alive by spamming all his buttons on cooldown - he needs decision making!" - but he's exactly the same now, except now he doesn't benefit his team by staying alive in the middle of the enemy team.

Sejuani's new innate and E are great, but I think her ultimate is a little meh - it's basically just a non-global Ashe ultimate. Zac's new Q was great, and I'm still on the fence about his ultimate. The damage swap between W and E on Maokai was great, it means that his saplings are enjoyable on any build, and the PBAOE shunt on Q was nice - but I feel his new ultimate destroyed his identity rather than reinforcing it, as well as not being all that interesting anyway.

In my opinion:

Vengeful Maelstrom
Reverted.
REMOVED: Cost per second.
NEW EFFECT: The cooldown is reduced by 1 second for each second not used.
REMOVED: Detonation damage.
REMOVED: Damage reduction affecting Maokai.
NEW EFFECT: Damage reduction from his allies is now redirected to Maokai. Sap Magic's cooldown reduction will also trigger from redirected damage, but will not trigger multiple times from area of effect spells.

DeathBurstMay 14, 20171 votes

Well, I'm not gonna put time and details to answer a 3-line post whose reasoning doesn't even hold. I'm just gonna explain why the reasoning doesn't hold.

But if you offer more concrete arguments, I'm gonna happily discuss them. You say that Maokai new R makes him just another generic Vanguard. That's not true. His only gap closer is his Root, that has a medium range at best compared to all other Vanguard (Amumu bandlet toss, Malphite R, Zac jump, Seju R, Leona R and blade, etc.). And his R is super slow. If you just Root the enemy Tank and then just cast your R toward their backline, you're not going to catch them.

His R being so wide but so slow forces you to find good flank opportunities, and forces you to play in a way which is not typical of all Vanguards. He also has a huge zoning potential and can enable you to force an objective without contestation by just casting your R preemptively, just to deter opponents from engaging, which no other Vanguard can do. And this thematic/strength of "Vanguard with zone control" is reinforced by his saplings and the bush mechanics.

RikariMay 13, 20174 votes

Maokai was pretty much one of the two tanks that could 1v1 the adc lol,next is armor malphite

KingnewgameplusMay 12, 201711 votes

Graves went from an ADC to a jungle bruiser, this seems to be a theme.

Bottom LanerMay 13, 20177 votes

People do some crazy shit when they try to quit smoking

CasterGilgameshMay 14, 20172 votes

guys plox leave graves alone he was having a mid life crisis like all middle aged men....

XxxLumberJackxxXMay 12, 20179 votes

I think its weird to release a tank with no tank abilities. Esp when he used to have c the best tank ability

SpecterVonBarenMay 12, 20176 votes

Alistar

DJMason88May 12, 20176 votes

Guess 70% damage reduction isn't a tank ability.

SpecterVonBarenMay 12, 20175 votes

Now, follow my logic here. Someone says " Esp when he used to have c the best tank ability" and another person responds with Allistar's icon. What can we infer from this?

Maybe we can infer that the person is saying, "Why no good sir, Alistar has the best tank ability in the game! And I shall post merely his icon as a joke to make this comment amusing so someone may find a small laugh at it. But woah be me if someone else should come along and choose to ignore this and think I'm responding only to your first sentence and not your whole post. Hohohohoho"

DanjengMay 12, 20173 votes

Guess having the highest base health in the game isn't enough.

The Lost MarblesMay 12, 20178 votes

I was thinking that Riot intentionally kept AP Maokai possible because IIRC, it used to be a legit way to play him ages ago. Probably just over-tuned him a bit on that front is all.

Kinda like how they tried to keep the various off-builds that Malzahar could use because his fans wanted them kept.

ErockandrollMay 12, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XywaZOZI,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-05-12T19:30:51.712+0000)

I was thinking that Riot intentionally kept AP Maokai possible because IIRC, it used to be a legit way to play him ages ago. Probably just over-tuned him a bit on that front is all.

Kinda like how they tried to keep the various off-builds that Malzahar could use because his fans wanted them kept.

There's kind of a thin line between Full Tank and AP bruiser. Gragas for example, if going Jungle, he could build Runic Ekko if he wanted to be more of a Bruiser, or Cinderhulk if he wanted to hyper tank. Though since Cinderhulk doesn't have the ratio it use to have, The buiser build can be better. Especially for Tanks with High mana costs. (Not sure about Maokai, as I don't actually own him yet)

But even in Top lane, Tanks are fairly caster focused. Using spells to clear the minion waves instead of high ratios, but you can still build a basic level of damage and mana. (probably why the LCS Top lane tanks build like 2 or 3 doran's rings) And RoA was at one point, a core item on Maokai.

And that's my other issue with the tank update, is that they didn't really address the starting options for tanks. (Except for Doran's shield.) At the moment, the best Mana items for tanks should be Frozen Heart, and righteous glory. Yet those items are a bit slot inefficent compared to most tank items. With Frozen Heart in particular, getting replaced with ICB. (Giving the tank more offensive utility than defensive ones.)

Oakleaf RangerMay 12, 20172 votes

Frozen heart is an item I always found to be more optimal on supports rather than solo experience tanks. It allows tanks to build another tanky damage/cc item and since the general rule of thumb is not focus the support you create a situation where the enemy team has to deal with a aoe attack speed slow as long as the support is alive.

XxxLumberJackxxXMay 12, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XywaZOZI,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-05-12T19:30:51.712+0000)

I was thinking that Riot intentionally kept AP Maokai possible because IIRC, it used to be a legit way to play him ages ago. Probably just over-tuned him a bit on that front is all.

Kinda like how they tried to keep the various off-builds that Malzahar could use because his fans wanted them kept.

When zed was released Maokai ap was my go to counter

SpecterVonBarenMay 12, 20173 votes

Except... they didn't? AD Malz is dead since it plays the same as AP Malz but worse since he loses any additional damage on his Q E and R (As crappy as they are now)

The Lost MarblesMay 12, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Except... they didn't? AD Malz is dead since it plays the same as AP Malz but worse since he loses any additional damage on his Q E and R (As crappy as they are now)

I never said they did it well, just that they did it at all.

If they didn't have AD Malz in mind, they wouldn't have even given the reworked Voidlings an AD ratio on their attacks.

LongHair FoxMay 12, 20177 votes

Check the pbe and the maokaimains subreddit... riot is working to make him a tank again.

Dextix LTMay 12, 20178 votes

Would have been nice if he was not turned into a mage in the first place....

SociopathFriendMay 12, 201722 votes

Because Riot sat down at a table and said, "You know what would piss off the players? Turning Maokai into a mage." /s

o Recovery oMay 12, 20173 votes

Maokai What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target.

Serika ZeroMay 13, 20172 votes

meanwhile, binladen was a CIA operative and had a PhD..........

ShinkoMinoriMay 12, 20176 votes

At least that way I can use his victorious skin

DunkinNoobsMay 12, 20174 votes

Just admit that his new E was a stupid idea and change it back. So long as he has dominant bush control, he'll be played support.

EvilUnicornLordMay 13, 20173 votes

#Maokai's "Tank" Update has turned him into a Teemo

Fixed it, your welcome.

JustJaysonMay 13, 20172 votes

Maokai I am still trying to figure out. Tried a coupel support games with him last night. Tried to hybrid tank and ap items like liandries and it just didnt work. If you go full ap then you want to try to engage in jungle where you can make best use of saplings in bushes, but if you W to someone your just going to get blown up. If you build full tank, you still do not have any shielding or damage reduction abilities and fall behind any other tank.

SîlentStormMay 13, 20172 votes

An assasian Lmaokai

CasterGilgameshMay 14, 20172 votes

im tirggered by the new mao i almost wanted to break my own pc i swear i was close to uninstalling this is fuckin unbelievable its even worse then release zyra

Meep ManMay 12, 20171 votes

Honestly, of they want him to be a Tank again, they need to reduce the AP Ratio on his E to (+1% per 100 AP) OR convert it to something like a (+25% AP) ratio on the flat damage. Then, they need to increase the root duration on his W back to 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 second(s) and then increase the root duration of his ultimate to something like 1-3 seconds from 0.6-2.4 seconds. That would bring him back to being a Tank.

SpecterVonBarenMay 12, 20175 votes

This is indeed part of the problem. They made it so that he no longer gets stronger CC from maxing his Q or W (I don't count adding .1 second to a duration as anything of note) and so the most obvious thing to max is the thing that gets a bunch of bonuses from maxing it, his E. They're trimming that down on the PBE now but they still aren't giving much encouragement to max his other two skills.