Mages NEED Another AP Armor Item

Sugar Momma·Feb 23, 2016·210 votes·10,875 views

Discounting (its stats are too low to justify building it on an AP mid/top/jg), AP champs have one option for armor/AP: .

It's nice and all that costs 3500 gold. Okay, I get that its active is powerful and it should be more expensive. But what if you're an AP champ who doesn't need the active but needs armor? With all the AD comps running around these days, the answer is: Too bad, gotta spend that cash.

Riot, please, AD champs get and which are both very cost-efficient and have very good actives/passives. AP champs need another option as well.

270 Comments

Lord OwlBearFeb 23, 201641 votes

I would go as far as to say there should be an armor version of item 3028 so mid champs don't have to get set back when they have to go out of their way to purchase item 3191

GinoSoldierFeb 23, 201618 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord OwlBear,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PaVYTKwW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-23T18:59:43.128+0000)

I would go as far as to say there should be an armor version of so mid champs don't have to get set back when they have to go out of their way to purchase

If AD mids can get everything they need defensively with Maw (MR, free anti AP shield) or offensively with Duskblade (MS, armor pen, bonus damage proc), i'd like AP mids to have the same kind of options. The problem is, all AD champs need at the core is AD and any amount they buy is going to be more cost-efficient than AP on it's own because AP absolutely need mana and/or mana regeneration and/or CDR.

Most importantly, early first-back items that build into actual items for AP all need to be reworked and improved/merged. Sheen is offensive and supports mana but demands taking risks and doesn't help sustain. Catalyst is a decent sustain item but gives literally nothing offensively until it's often too late. Chalice gives enough mana to lane but is hardly more than a burden against AD champions. Codex may give CDR but doesn't help with mana/regen so you basically just run out faster. Aether Wisp gives mobility at the expense of everything else. Seeker's Armguard may help against AD champs but requires time to come into full power and is just not sufficient in terms of sustain or even protection with all the armor pen running around now.

To be perfectly honest, i say scrap Zhonyas and it's active so that people can stop saying 'But you have Zhonyas you don't need anything else!', and build us a pair of genuinely good anti-AD items for mages. You want to stop an AD's burst combo? A purely anti AD shield that functions similarly to Maw's anti-magic shield would do the job perfectly without having Zhonya's massive downsides.

Something could also be done to make fully stacking Archangel's Staff more rewarding.

KillerKellFeb 24, 201610 votes

"Something could also be done to make fully stacking Archangel's Staff more rewarding."

I don't understand. MORE Rewarding?

Archangel's Staff is the Highest AP Item IN THE GAME. No item, on it's own, delivers more AP. That INCLUDES Rabadon's Deathcap, giving itself the Passive. So it gives a crap ton of Mana, I believe the most Mana in the Game (well, the AD Version I believe gives equal Mana since both derive from the Tear) and the most AP.

What more, really, should it do?

The drawback is you have to wait for the power spike, you have to play for the Late Game... and in the current meta no one plays for a late game.

The main drawback to Archangel's Staff is that the primary item to compliment it ALSO requires a Ten Minute Wait once complete (Rod of Ages). But this is off-set by Archangel's often being the ONLY Mana Item you need in your build... and it hitting harder than a Rabadon's on top of that is some serious icing on that AP Cake.

Guy Fox TeemoFeb 23, 201621 votes

The boards really think Mages should be long range, untouchable gods, that never have to manage their Mana , but do more damage then their entire team combined :L.

IllgoreFeb 23, 20162 votes

well, they may each have a few of the attributes but not all of em together^^

Sugar MommaFeb 23, 201618 votes

I'm not arguing mages need a huge buff or anything. They just need another armor option is all.

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 24, 20165 votes

and completely shut out assassins? if assassins don't win early on, whats the point in picking them? Whereas you could pick mages who have burst AND utility.

BolwinkelFeb 24, 201612 votes

Well what's the point in building Seeker's when an AD assassin can just build a maw or serrated dirk against me? Why not just build pure ap damage? I mean, they'll still 100-0 me fairly easily.

SH AzykanFeb 24, 20162 votes

the problem is that AD assassins win early on, and then in mid game, and then get too hard to kill late game as well. There is never a point where Leblanc truly beats out Zed because his itemization is so much better.

SpongebobIsLifeFeb 24, 20169 votes

I disagree. Late game lb can delete squishies better than zed. AP assassins/mages scales harder then ad casters and lb has ridiculous ratios. Also, for a target to counter to lb (adcs), they have to build a banshees, which means they have to sacrifice damage, while with zed they can build a mercurial scimitar, which not only gets rid of a bulk of zeds damage, it also also grants them 75 ad and 10 percent life steal!

SH AzykanFeb 24, 20163 votes

AD picks up item 3156 item 3139 item 3053 congratz they now take way less damage from LB without sacrificing much themselves

Itemization is making it harder for AP champs to do the same damage as AD

Perhaps Talon would have been a better example, but point still stands that AD itemization is making AP champs less reliable against them.

Funnily enough though, AP also have answers for other AP champs item 3001 item 3174 item 3060 , and the opposite is true for AD vs AD.

Chaos Milk TeaFeb 23, 201617 votes

There is a bit of untapped creativity in mage builds that you can use against assassins.

If you really have trouble with a specific type of opponent, make a rune page that swaps in extra flat armor.
Consider bringing barrier over ignite and try to farm and scale into team fights. >
Stop finishing your mana item before building Zhonyas. In converse, stop rushing Zhonyas before buying mana. If you were going to build morelonomicion build the Idol first and then rush the Zhonyas. + > > >
Consider Archangel staff or Rod of Ages over your usual mana item for matchups against assassins. Both make you much harder to kill, with stacked Archangel acting as a second Zhonyas and ROA making you much tankier to assassins. Tear of the Goddess and Catalyst will provide good mana regen in lane in the mean time.

LankPantsFeb 24, 201613 votes

The problem here is that you're coming up with all this complex stuff that overall cuts down on your efficiency and slows your early build significantly.

AD assassins don't even have to spare a passing thought to any of this, all they have to do is rush one of their three super efficient items ( item 3156 , item 3142 , item 3147 ) and they get great efficiency from it without ever slowing down their build.

There's also the fact that mages are gated in their early game by mana regen. There really isn't an option for mages to avoid it and it's really not a good combat stat. Because of this and the fact that most AD assassins get a longsword as their first they're basically 1k gold up on their first core item assuming the mage doesn't rush Morello's but if they do they lose anyway.

Oh and did I mention that Zonya's has an atrocious build path. While the enemy assassin is finishing up their Maw you'll probably be farming up your last few hundred gold for a NLR, but it's not even easy to reach this point because you've been sitting on 1k gold while they've spent gold incrementally on their smooth build path item, meaning that you're at a gigantic item deficit while waiting on your NLR. The best part is you get to do it all over again while you wait for the insane combine cost on Zonya's.

That's before even mentioning that AD assassins have the advantage of having diverse build paths. They can go anyone of the 3 items I listed before while as a mage you're absolutely locked into buying a Zonya's first. If you don't you just die for it.

KillerKellFeb 24, 20166 votes

Needlessly Large Rod needs to be built from something, most likely the Amp Tomes.

That way you can grab a Mana Item and not completely miss out on meaningful AP that will build into a Core Item.

Guyy FieriFeb 23, 201614 votes

They don't really though. Yall have Rod of Ages. The tannkiness you get from that is stupid. Yes it isn't armor but for that many raw stats, I'd still say it's pretty silly. Give a mid lane Mage ROA, Zhonya's and Abyssal and maybe an Athene's, the amount of durability you will have while still cranking out damage is just stupid.

Very Hard EngageFeb 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

They don't really though. Yall have Rod of Ages. The tannkiness you get from that is stupid. Yes it isn't armor but for that many raw stats, I'd still say it's pretty silly. Give a mid lane Mage ROA, Zhonya's and Abyssal and maybe an Athene's, the amount of durability you will have while still cranking out damage is just stupid.

the entire purpose would make it so mages would have 50% reduced damage because of armor, and actually manage all the penetration assassins naturally build, and it wouldnt just be survive your true damage anyway thanks to a lofty health pool.

tell me, what good is 50armor on zhonyas when my enemy laner has duskblade youmuu and maybe maw? that mandates a second armor item to manage, no other option exists outside of actual tank items.

items which you normally build, your build path, which enable your 1v1 kill potential, destroy AP's naturally low armor pool.

which would ofc, be at the expense of our damage output. just to survive assassin antics.

DengedenFeb 23, 20164 votes

Or you could ... not fight them? 9 out of 10 times you outrange them or you have some sort of defensive ability.

Zenthon PrimeFeb 23, 20163 votes

Gapclosers + Flash gets nearly any assassin in range of most long-range mages. Only Xerath can outrange that with max-range Qs (also Ziggs but he can't do anything useful from that range 95% of the time), and even he needs to be close to minions sometimes or he's gonna burn through his mana insantly.

OneSmoothDudeFeb 24, 20162 votes

I mean if an assassin Flashes then gapcloses to you under a turret and/or into your team, kills you, and then is able to escape, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that they deserve that kill.

Heckin SupportFeb 23, 20164 votes

The problem with RoA is that mages need mana regen, and cdr. This only gives tanky stats, and it requires stacking. Games are a lot more fast paced and if you first buy this you're damage will suffer.

Guy Fox TeemoFeb 23, 20169 votes

It should suffer? Tanky stats for slightly less damage early? they can't have both lol...

NineTailedMysticFeb 23, 201610 votes

The real issue is that we need those stats early vs an AD, if we're sitting in lane with Catalyst's HP/Mana, yea we sustain well enough, but have no Armor. When we complete Rod of Ages we have to wait 10 minutes for it to stack all the way, so by then it's likely 20 minutes in.

The discussion here is how AD mid laners get to finish their items far before we get to finish Zhonya's while suffering for it just to have some survivability.

Guy Fox TeemoFeb 23, 20162 votes

How about no, you don't get it early, that is your weakness your SHIT early, and not zhonya's is not Some, its a lot. You basically get to negate any chance of that enemy mid laner zed killing you after 15mins. To me thats an insanely good trade off.

Zenthon PrimeFeb 23, 201610 votes

If Zed is smart, he can then abuse the fact you don't have a mana regen item and push you in with Q spam, forcing you to waveclear with spells and run out of mana. That is, unsurprisingly, the true reason many mage mains hate Zed.

MimaropaFeb 23, 20167 votes

item 3170 Please move this to SR

agbudarFeb 23, 20162 votes

yea i know a whoooooole bunch of champs that would just love that item

MimaropaFeb 23, 20162 votes

see! which means its a good item that many champs can use it.

XosraFeb 24, 20166 votes

Since they raised the cost of hourglass so much why don't they give it back its 120 ap again. As it is right now the part you use to make it give you 20 more ap than hourglass itself and that is dumb.

KillerKellFeb 24, 20161 votes

It's not just the 20 AP... the Passive stacks with itself. So giving a 30% Bonus AP Item an extra 20 AP on the Base, nets it an actual 26 AP.

True, not earth shattering. But it does matter.

XosraFeb 24, 20162 votes

I was talking about Zhonya's your talking about Deathcap lol.

RalanrFeb 23, 20164 votes

item 3050 is it not good enough because it's a support item?

CherysseFeb 23, 201646 votes

because it requires a partner to be fully eficient, the AP is low, etc

RalanrFeb 23, 20163 votes

Well it wouldn't be an early rush.

XeroKimoFeb 23, 20165 votes

Well I think they kinda wanna look for an early rush since Zhonya's to be effective agianst ad mids you actually need the item itself compared to Maw or Mercs, QSS or hexdrinker is sufficient enough to have a winning chance against aps

RalanrFeb 23, 20163 votes

The winning chance is late game as AP is a late game stat. You just need to farm a lot.

Sona PingFeb 23, 201613 votes

Actually... it isn't. It's worse late game. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2NmfsLlk-ad-mids-counter-ap-mids-just-solely-off-items?comment=00010001

RalanrFeb 23, 20165 votes

Ahh...I guess that's how I like to imagine it.

DealthFeb 24, 20164 votes

If you REALLY want an armor item you could buy item 3110 . It's less damage but that is the trade-off.

Sugar MommaFeb 24, 201617 votes

It's not less dmg it's no dmg, lol.

HershellFeb 24, 20166 votes

Unless you're playing Ryze. xD Ryze

DessemFeb 24, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sugar Momma,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PaVYTKwW,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-02-23T18:53:30.167+0000)

Riot, please, AD champs get and which are both very cost-efficient and have very good actives/passives. AP champs need another option as well.

The worst part about those two items is that they both have 1300 gold components that have a 'lesser' version of their active/passive. AP champions need to spend 3500 Gold to be able to say, "No, you're not doing that", whereas an AD champion can opt into "No, you're not" for 1300 Gold on either denying burst damage, or CC.

I absolutely understand Seeker's Armguard with a mini-Zhonya passive would not be desirable. However, some more agency for AP champions to "counter-build" AD champions would be nice.

CitadelOfIceFeb 24, 20163 votes

-> item 3170 <- nurf the MR and toss it onto the rift.

Davidt1234Feb 24, 20163 votes

item 3170 they should add moonflair spellblade, maybe change the numbers a bit, but i think it would be a cool item for SR :P

dangopeeFeb 24, 20162 votes

What you want, 700AP with 160+ armor?

The Taco KatFeb 24, 20166 votes

Something that doesn't give mid lanes 45 armor which is entirely negated by the enemy's AD carries' armor penetration anyways.

Vanic998Feb 24, 20163 votes

I don't think that AP champions need another AP armour item for the same reason as what Dongopee said, but I do believe that riot needs to remove some armour penetration from some ad items. mainly because NO ONE buys Zhonyas as a first item so it's unfair that AD champions get to penetrate our armour before were even able to buy armour.

MiraweaveFeb 24, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that AP champions need another AP armour item for the same reason as what Dongopee said, but I do believe that riot needs to remove some armour penetration from some ad items. mainly because NO ONE buys Zhonyas as a first item so it's unfair that AD champions get to penetrate our armour before were even able to buy armour.

Or we could just un-gut zhonyas now that we're apparently making counter items rushable item 3156

SnugglePuggle94Feb 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

mainly because NO ONE buys Zhonyas as a first item

Ahem, every AP player that goes against a Zed builds it first item, and if they don't they are downright stupid.

Vanic998Feb 24, 20161 votes

Ap champions can build Zhonyas as a first item if they want to, but for mana reliant ap champions, specifically mages, building Zhonyas as a first item will make you safe from zed, but it will cause you to have mana problems.

SnugglePuggle94Feb 24, 20164 votes

I know that, dude. I'm an AP champion main. Still, if people want to survive against Zed, they have to get Zhonya's first. It's basically a no brainer, otherwise you are just giving him more kills by going for a mana regen or damage item.