So, Runic Echoes?

trash sion·Feb 8, 2016·3 votes·1,031 views

http://champion.gg/champion/Udyr/Jungle

http://champion.gg/champion/FiddleSticks

http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Jungle

http://champion.gg/champion/Elise

http://champion.gg/champion/Evelynn

http://champion.gg/champion/Nidalee

Huh, would you look at that! Almost every squishy (or bruiser) AP Jungler that CAN abuse AP stats along with MS is doing... just that!

And what would you know, the one out of this list that synergizes EXTREMELY well with MS is... benefiting from the MS! Wowzers!

Seriously though, almost every AP Jungler saw a winrate improvement with the release of Runic Echoes, the main benefit being the AP and ganking power to those who couldn't weave in autos.

Side note, most AP junglers were also Shit-Tier before Echoes.

Whaddaya know, the one champion who WASN'T shit tier before Echoes, and who benefits explicitely from BOTH stats available has an exponentially high winrate!

Sure, MS is nice on all champions, but it solves one of few problems Udyr had. Lower the MS on Runic Echoes, and watch his winrate drop.

68 Comments

Shiroi KitsuneFeb 8, 20165 votes

Or... Keep multiple viable and powerful options open for junglers to choose from?

trash sionFeb 8, 20162 votes

Okay, let's use your logic.

We don't nerf RE, Udyr get's nerfed because RE is best case scenario.

Subsequently destroys his other playstyles.

Udyr is now FORCED to build RE, and even then it's now mediocre.

"multiple viable and powerful options"

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20163 votes

Udyr is brokenly overpowered. Nerf Udyr, not everyone else.

trash sionFeb 8, 20162 votes

That's the thing, Udyr is really the only one who can abuse the 10% MS, it's just "ah cool more MS" on everyone else. To nerf Udyr because of some cheesy AP build will gut the rest of his build paths and make it so you ONLY see this hypermobile Udyr, even if he ends up doing a little less damage or being a little less sticky.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20163 votes

Utter nonsense.

When a character is blatantly overpowered, he must be nerfed, your excuses aside there is no justification for such a high win rate coupled with such a high pick rate. He is clearly broken.

http://champion.gg/champion/Udyr 57% win rate 10% play rate

56% win rate 10% play rate

Remember that high play rate actually DEFLATES win rate, so Udyr being at 57% with such high play rate indicates he is spectacularly overpowered...

trash sionFeb 8, 20162 votes

You're still missing something...

Nothing in his stats changed. It was a single item that made his winrate what it is.

It's his synergy with the item, a synergy that no other champion shares on such a spectacular level, so it only makes sense to nerf the source of the winrate.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:36:12.483+0000)

Nothing in his stats changed. It was a single item that made his winrate what it is.

Irrelevant, he is performing at a level far beyond acceptable range. He must be nerfed.... it's called balance, you do not nerf everyone else to make the broken character not broken, you nerf the broken character to bring him into line with what others are capable of doing.

Let me put it to you in simple terms; Udyr is overpowered. Udyr gets nerfed. Udyr is no longer overpowered.

It's not complicated. Balance means that characters must perform within a certain range of parameters of which Udyr is outside of.

Or in even simpler terms (Good lord, how much more simple is necessary?); If you nerf Runic Echoes, you nerf everyone that uses it just to affect a broken character (Udyr). If you nerf Udyr, only Udyr (The broken character) gets nerfed

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

That's where the issue lies.

It'd be like if Tank Ekko were abusing a tank item that was "pretty good" on others, and deciding to nerf both Tank Ekko and AP Ekko.

The only difference here is that Udyr's two popular build paths both bring damage from the same ability, and both draw MS from the same ability. It doesn't make sense to nerf every variation of Udyr because one is OP, but because all of his stats between builds are bundled in the same abilities, it makes nerfing one build impossible without just nerfing the item he's abusing.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:47:13.152+0000)

it makes nerfing one build impossible without just nerfing the item he's abusing.

Nonsense.

He needs a nerf to his stats or abilities. Nerfing every one of those characters because Udyr is broken is an atrocious idea. By that logic instead of nerfing Graves, they should nerf ADC itemization and in the process, destroy other ADCs.

The correct path is nerfing Graves, not every ADC.

QuephaFeb 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:54:10.339+0000)

Nonsense.

He needs a nerf to his stats or abilities. Nerfing every one of those characters because Udyr is broken is an atrocious idea. By that logic instead of nerfing Graves, they should nerf ADC itemization and in the process, destroy other ADCs.

The correct path is nerfing Graves, not every ADC.

You can nerf the item in such a way that it pretty much only hurts Udyr. For instance, increasing the AP ratio and flat AP while reducing the base damage would keep things about the same for every AP jungler except Udyr because Udyr's AP ratios are actually really bad and he doesn't seek out AP in his itemization. AP junglers would deal around the same amount of damage, even more in the late game, but Udyr with Echoes would take a big hit.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You can nerf the item

That would be the wrong path to take.

The correct path is to nerf Udyr, not everyone else. Reducing Udyr's base stats is probably the best way to go.

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:12:52.470+0000)

That would be the wrong path to take.

The correct path is to nerf Udyr, not everyone else. Reducing Udyr's base stats is probably the best way to go.

Then Udyr still builds Runic Echoes and all his other options become garbage. Tiger Udyr would actually become a joke build.

You didn't even read my example which would have simultaneously been a buff to everyone that builds Runic Echoes EXCEPT Udyr who would have probably no longer wanted to build the item at all. I gave another example in this thread (movespeed only applies outside of combat) which would have been a big nerf to Udyr and have virtually no effect on any other champion that cares about Echoes.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20162 votes

That is correct, nerfing Udyr will make him weaker.

What's your point?

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:28:39.792+0000)

That is correct, nerfing Udyr will make him weaker.

What's your point?

An AP item with garbage stats for Udyr shouldn't be his best buy. Udyr's Q shouldn't be a joke. If Udyr is broken with this item then there are other champions with powerful interactions with it that will be broken as soon as people figure it out. There are a lot of reasons why this item could be the problem instead of Udyr.

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

Actually, now that I think about it, the fact that people aren't building this yet on Shaco must mean they haven't thought of it yet. Shaco has better AP ratios than Udyr, benefits a ton from movespeed, and the burst from Echo should be very attractive to him.

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

I've tried it, I like Runeglaive on AP Shaco better. Makes his clears less abysmal, you don't proc RE as often. The extra damage on Luden's rather than RE also makes it less attractive because you only have one direct damage spell, and to maximize that damage you kinda need Luden's.

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If Udyr is broken with this item then there are other champions with powerful interactions with it that will be broken as soon as people figure it out.

You missed a key part here... you just blocked out what you didn't want to hear. The point he is trying to make is that the only thing Udyr really gains from RE is movement speed. If just this stat breaks Udyr, then a champion that benefits from AP, waveclear, AND MS is no doubt going to become outrageously overpowered once people realize it.

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

I think we're on the same page, we have the same fear. I for one am a Tiger Udyr main, so to see Udyr completely gutted when building anything but RE would upset me. It's an issue because some stats on RE seem to ONLY benefit Udyr, and at that he even abuses them (MS). For most champions, MS is a "bonus" while on Udyr it solves his main problem: being kited.

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

Graves doesn't abuse a specific item, it's an issue with his stats after they were changed during the rework. Udyr has had no stat changes recently and this winrate change is entirely due to an itemization change.

SiytherFeb 8, 20161 votes

relax its Riot that does the nerfing. If they decide Udyr is to strong with this item they will nerf both him and the item just like always lol

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

mfw udyr gets sejuani'd

DeathBurstFeb 8, 20161 votes

What he is trying to say, with an incredible patience, is that there is no good way to nerf Runic Echo Udyr without nerfing all Udyr builds, and that if you do nerf it, then it doesn't really promote increased build diversity for Udyr: after the nerf, the other OK builds become underwhelming, and the RE build which was OP becomes just OK, so every Udyr is forced to go for the RE build.

Now, you could argue that closing some options for Udyr in exchange for opening options for a lot of other AP Junglers is still a good trade, but at least acknowledge his real argument, because it's definitely not "utter nonsense".

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

there is no good way to nerf Runic Echo

That is correct. There is no reason to nerf Runic Echoes instead of nerfing Udyr.

Anyone arguing that Udyr does not need nerfs does not understand the basis of balance; You do not nerf everyone except the overpowered character, you nerf the overpowered character. Udyr is overpowered, he must be nerfed, NOT everyone else.

Do you not understand that nerfing everyone is a bad idea? Let's go down to simple terms again; If you nerf Udyr, Udyr becomes balanced. If you nerf Runic Echoes, you just nerfed every single person that uses Runic Echoes, side effect of which will be Udyr will still be overpowered because balance exists on RELATIVE DIFFERENTIATION, not on raw power.

Balance exists based on alternatives. Nerf everyone and Udyr is still overpowered because everyone got weaker... conversely nerf Udyr and he becomes balanced.

DeathBurstFeb 8, 20161 votes

Can you quote an even more misleading part of my post, please?

And, repeating what you said in another comment is not useful. And not right in this context. I never talked about nerfing Runic Echo, or everyone else than Udyr. No, really, go back reading my comment: never.

At this point, I don't even know if you are intentionally trolling or not... So I'll give it a last try:

Nerfing all builds of a champion because only one of those builds is OP is a bad thing. Maybe it's the lesser of two evils, I don't know, that is debatable. But it is still objectively bad.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Nerfing all builds of a champion

Nerfing Udyr because Udyr is overpowered is not wrong.

It is literally standard operating procedure.

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:39:28.995+0000)

Nerfing Udyr because Udyr is overpowered is not wrong.

It is literally standard operating procedure.

No, it isn't, because champs have been screwed over several times by this sequence.

Sejuani has a really high playrate and winrate! She must be broken, time for a nerf! Later everyone realizes that it was cinderhulk that was OP and it doesn't really matter which tank you play, as long as you build Cinderhulk you win, so Cinderhulk gets a nerf. Then Sejuani sits in the garbage heap since now all her abilities deal no damage and she doesn't even have the broken item that was barely keeping her alive.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No, it isn't, because champs have been screwed over several times by this sequence.

Of course, sometimes nerfs go too far but those are the exceptions rather than the rule, furthermore at that juncture we are talking about degrees of nerfs rather than "is it wrong to nerf" which is what people are arguing , suggesting absolute nonsense like nerfing everyone instead of nerfing Udyr.

Nerfing Udyr is the correct path... the debate as to "how hard should he be nerfed" is another debate entirely.

Then Sejuani sits in the garbage heap since now

50% win rate, 3% pick rate. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani https://champion.gg/champion/Sejuani

I guess your counter-example floundered pretty hard.

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:44:18.021+0000)

Of course, sometimes nerfs go too far but those are the exceptions rather than the rule, furthermore at that juncture we are talking about degrees of nerfs rather than "is it wrong to nerf" which is what people are arguing.

Nerfing Udyr is the correct path... the debate as to "how hard should he be nerfed" is another debate entirely.

50% win rate, 3% pick rate. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani https://champion.gg/champion/Sejuani

I guess your counter-example floundered pretty hard.

The cinderhulk nerf was over a year ago, her winrate used to be much lower directly after that, and a 50% winrate for a champ like Sejuani is pretty bad. She's a very one-dimensional tank with poor early dueling and clear speed that is much more powerful in solo queue. In real play she suffers when the enemy jungler actually plays jungle and knows how to pressure her.

This would be a case where a nerf would go too far because Udyr's winrate is directly correlating to how many people realize they should build Echoes on him, which is not an item designed for him and gives him strengths he isn't designed to have. You would be nerfing him under the assumption that he has a solid chunk of burst when he runs out into a gank, and he has so much movespeed that he can easily get to and stick to a champion when these are not intended to be things that Udyr should have.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The cinderhulk nerf was over a year ago, her winrate used to be much lower directly after that

Except that's not what you said, I even quoted you saying that it extended until now.

and a 50% winrate for a champ like Sejuani is pretty bad.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

QuephaFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=0000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:54:40.902+0000)

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

That has always been the case for tanks with a ton of power budget in their ults. Amumu, Malphite, Sejuani pre-rework, they all have powerful solo queue win rates even when they're worthless in pro play because they have ultimates that clearly tell their team "ok we can teamfight now and steamroll"

DeathBurstFeb 8, 20161 votes

It's wrong that it is standard procedure. Look how they nerfed Tank Ekko without nerfing Full AP Ekko. Look how they carefully tune the different Ezreal builds relative to each other.

Unless you are claiming that all Udyr builds are OP, including Cinderhulk Udyr? Because it's obviously wrong too.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's wrong that it is standard procedure.

It is wrong to nerf overpowered characters? That is nonsense. Riot , despite some mistakes in the past, has been consistent when it comes to balancing and they are not wrong.

Unless you are claiming that all Udyr builds are OP, including Cinderhulk Udyr? Because it's obviously wrong too.

I don't know what the name of that fallacy is , but it's most definitely a logical fallacy.

Udyr is overpowered. The statistics bare this out, you are arguing nonsensical outliers, using red herrings and overall just spouting nonsense. The reality remains firm; Udyr is overpowered and will undoubtedly be , justifiably nerfed.

There is no counter-argument as long as he maintains such an absurdly high win rate coupled with a high pick rate.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

ONE build of Udyr is overpowered, not the whole champ, and THAT build will be justifiably nerfed, I'm sure of it. The question is: how to do it with as little collateral damage as possible? And what is acceptable as collateral damage?

Because if your nerf ALL builds of a champ when ONE build is OP, you are basically forcing him to build only the once-OP build going forward.

And it's false to say that Riot standard procedure is to nerf all builds of a champ when one is OP, that's what I meant the first time, and I even gave examples (AD vs AP Ez, Tank Ekko) to illustrate, so could you please stop willingly misinterpreting my words?

Dominick DestineFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Udyr is overpowered

That is correct.

That is why he needs nerfs... you can try to spin as if he doesn't need nerfs but I will ignore nonsense like "UDYR DOESNT NEED NERFS" which is what you are trying to sell... do I really need to pull up the statistics again?

Furthermore, your argument hinges on you being a subpar player... you can play support Rengar or jungle Kog Maw, that's fine... but when Rengar gets nerfed because he's wildly overpowered, do not whine the way you are doing now. The character is overpowered and needs to be nerfed for the sake of balance, it's not complicated.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

That is definitely not what I said. My optimism got the better of me, but I'm now convinced that you are just a troll. I guess I'll just downvote and give up trying to interact with you...

Dominick DestineFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Tyou are ... a troll.

Nope not a troll, but you can pretend otherwise , I will not stand in the way of your delusions.

AbyssphereFeb 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

It's wrong that it is standard procedure. Look how they nerfed Tank Ekko without nerfing Full AP Ekko. Look how they carefully tune the different Ezreal builds relative to each other.

Unless you are claiming that all Udyr builds are OP, including Cinderhulk Udyr? Because it's obviously wrong too.

How does what you're saying make any sense? They nerfed AP Ekko by nerfing HIS KIT, they tune Ezreal by changing HIS KIT. And yet you are arguing against nerfing Udyr's AP build by changing his kit, and instead arguing that you should nerf his itemisation.

If you want to nerf Runic Udyr while ignoring the other builds he has then you just nerf the AP ratio on his R. You don't nerf the items he builds.

And btw it's not obviously wrong that other Udyr builds are OP at all. He has a 56% win rate with Devourer.

QuephaFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How does what you're saying make any sense? They nerfed AP Ekko by nerfing HIS KIT, they tune Ezreal by changing HIS KIT. And yet you are arguing against nerfing Udyr's AP build by changing his kit, and instead arguing that you should nerf his itemisation.

If you want to nerf Runic Udyr while ignoring the other builds he has then you just nerf the AP ratio on his R. You don't nerf the items he builds.

And btw it's not obviously wrong that other Udyr builds are OP at all. He has a 56% win rate with Devourer.

This isn't AP Udyr, this is Runic Echoes Udyr. He builds zero AP other than Runic Echoes which has always been standard operating procedure for Phoenix Udyr because his AP ratios are garbage.

Udyr only cares about the burst and movespeed from echoes and that is what is driving him over the top.

AbyssphereFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This isn't AP Udyr, this is Runic Echoes Udyr. He builds zero AP other than Runic Echoes which has always been standard operating procedure for Phoenix Udyr because his AP ratios are garbage.

Udyr only cares about the burst and movespeed from echoes and that is what is driving him over the top.

I called it AP Udyr because he builds one AP item, which is unusual for him - you can call it Movement Speed Udyr if you like. The point is that you can easily nerf this particular Udyr build without hurting the others by nerfing his kit, which is exactly what has happened with other champion off-builds in the recent past.

His AP ratios aren't trash, by the way. In fact, the active damage on phoenix is insane and the AP ratio on the stance is pretty average. Turtle form has a very decent AP ratio on the shield too.

There's plenty of room to nerf his AP ratios, primarily the active damage on phoenix form because that is ridiculously generous. He gets a lot more from the AP on Runic Echoes than you're saying.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

Do you think just nerfing his AP ratios would be enough? Since no other build has a lot of AP in it, that solution would satisfy pretty much everyone, but I fear that it wouldn't be enough to make Runic Echo Udyr balanced.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

The changes they made to Ekko were negligible for an AP build but severely reduced the damage the Tank build could output. So they nerfed Tank Ekko without nerfing AP Ekko.

But you're lending me words I never said. I never mentioned how Runic Echo Udyr should be nerfed. The ratio on R is an option, a smart nerf on Runic Echo may be another option. I don't know. And I never argued against changing Udyr's kit. I argued against nerfing all Udyr's builds, instead of the offending one(s).

(As for the Devourer build, the problem is probably Rageblade more than Udyr, imho... I still think this item is too strong, even after the increased cost. But that's another debate.)

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

Man, you really like taking half of a sentence out of context so it seems like people are agreeing with you.

Dominick DestineFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2016-02-08T23:55:04.301+0000)

Man, you really like taking half of a sentence out of context so it seems like people are agreeing with you.

Nonsense.

I quote salient points and dismiss fluff text. If I am addressing a specific statement made, I will quote it.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

Your are HALF-quoting salient points to make them wrong when they were right in the beginning.

Dominick DestineFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Your are HALF-quoting

Incorrect.

If I were going to quote the entire thing everyone says, there would be zero point in quoting to begin with. It's not complicated, I address salient points, not meaningless fluff text.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

I'm technically correct (the best kind of correct). You do quote half a proposition, and you do modify their apparent meaning by doing that.

trash sionFeb 8, 20161 votes

Thank you for helping to clarify.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

Sadly, I fear it won't help with this kind of people...

AbyssphereFeb 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Xv5Ge3t4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T22:18:32.429+0000)

Okay, let's use your logic.

We don't nerf RE, Udyr get's nerfed because RE is best case scenario.

Subsequently destroys his other playstyles.

Udyr is now FORCED to build RE, and even then it's now mediocre.

"multiple viable and powerful options"

It's more important to have multiple viable champions than multiple viable builds for a single champion. I'm pretty sure everyone that isn't an Udyr main would rather have lots of champions to choose from than the exciting choice of which item will best enhance their right-clicks on Udyr.

DeathBurstFeb 9, 20161 votes

That's a decent point. One that I mentioned an hour ago myself, but still a valid argument. At least you're trying to have a conversation, contrary to Dominik...

But look at it that way: wouldn't it be cool if we could have both? Multiple viable champs AND multiple builds for Udyr? Some people have proposed ideas in this direction, and you could help improve them. But dismissing the whole "don't nerf Udyr just because his Runic Echo build is OP" thread as nonsense is not very respectful or open-minded.