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Can we please look at Nidalee

Jefftiffy··5 votes·755 views

She needs some damage taken out of her kit. She can chunk you for around 1.3k with just a single spear. Then come in and do 2k with her cougar form. Guaranteed. Why? Because she has a lock on jump on hunt that is also double range. Lock on is a pretty big buff let along double range. One or the other not both.

On top of this if you try to kill her she heals for 600. She has a 3s mobility spell, along with mobility from hunt. I mean right now its back to old Nidalee of dodging a spear or dying. Sure it does 1.5-1.8k damage instead of 2.3k it did before, but now she has an extra 2k damage to back it up. Along with a lot more utility. She has a free reveal now, she has the ability to target jungle creeps as well meaning Baron and Dragon.

Edit: Adding in suggested changes to Nidalee's kit

#1. Remove the AS buff on heal(why is it even there) or make it self cast only #2. Drop hunt bonus damage on Takedown from 33% to 25% #3. Lower scaling on traps from 20/40/60/80/100+(10/12/14/16/18%+2% AP) Max hp to 20/40/60/80/100 (5/7/9/11/13%+2% AP) Max hp #4. Remove AD scaling on Takedown. #5. Remove lock on her W but allow her to pounce up to the double distance as long as it is in the direction of who she is hunting (more skill better utility)

What this does: Removes some of her random stats in there while making her less of a tank shredder and trims off excess damage so she still has enough to kill people but she can't be nearly as reckless about it. AD removal on Q is to just kill AD nidalee all together while removing it scaling with Dragon and Baron. Her W will take skill to do the damage but will trade reliability for flexibility.

16 Comments

Nahui3 votes

Little bit extreme on the numbers there, bud. Like really extreme xD

SwiftKitten883 votes

nidalee's spear are single target and will hit the first target they hit and they are VERY easy to sidestep. nidalee strengh are she can take down a squishy immobile champion with ease. nidalee uses up her burst damage in about 2 seconds with spear pounce swipe takwodwnand after that she has 1 poucne left to entier try to escape or try to continue the fight with only auto attacks. nidalle is VERY eaily stopped by any silence or stun as she is VERY squishy herself andwhile silence she has no ability to attack or escape.

as for your post lets address some things. nidalee needs 40% cdr for a 3 second pounce. nidalee is an assassinand does burst damage. she also actaully needs mana and has many weaknesses.

if you can land a spear you can pounce in on somone. this itself is a drawback becuase you are now in melee range and your still squishy as hell. as for what you seems to be descirbing is a full build nidalee so yes.. if you feed nidalee 15 kills and she reaches full build then yeah she is going to heal for 600 and deal 1.8k damage with a max range spear. but she also has over 700 ap with full build and is STILL squishy.

not to meantin a nidlaee a full build is a whole hell of alot eaier to deal with than say a yi, yauso, foria, zed, talon akali or almost ANY other asssin fuild build she is easier to deal with than any bruiser when she has full build.

so if you telling me that your nidalee got fed and that her spears hit for alot its becuase YOU LET HER GET OVER 700 AP

nidalee is a VERY balanced champs with many strengths many roles and many weaknesses

nidalee has FINALLY just reached a 50% win rate.

she doesn't have an 88% win rate like ww did. or a 59% win rate like launch reksai or even a 55% win rate like the current vi

plus ill have you know that trying to CS as nidalee while starting with a dorans rings is great practices for your adc's becuase she is easily one of the hardest champs in the game to CS with (in human form)

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

nidalee's spear are single target and will hit the first target they hit and they are VERY easy to sidestep. nidalee strengh are she can take down a squishy immobile champion with ease. nidalee uses up her burst damage in about 2 seconds with spear pounce swipe takwodwnand after that she has 1 poucne left to entier try to escape or try to continue the fight with only auto attacks. nidalle is VERY eaily stopped by any silence or stun as she is VERY squishy herself andwhile silence she has no ability to attack or escape.

as for your post lets address some things. nidalee needs 40% cdr for a 3 second pounce. nidalee is an assassinand does burst damage. she also actaully needs mana and has many weaknesses.

if you can land a spear you can pounce in on somone. this itself is a drawback becuase you are now in melee range and your still squishy as hell. as for what you seems to be descirbing is a full build nidalee so yes.. if you feed nidalee 15 kills and she reaches full build then yeah she is going to heal for 600 and deal 1.8k damage with a max range spear. but she also has over 700 ap with full build and is STILL squishy.

not to meantin a nidlaee a full build is a whole hell of alot eaier to deal with than say a yi, yauso, foria, zed, talon akali or almost ANY other asssin fuild build she is easier to deal with than any bruiser when she has full build.

so if you telling me that your nidalee got fed and that her spears hit for alot its becuase YOU LET HER GET OVER 700 AP

nidalee is a VERY balanced champs with many strengths many roles and many weaknesses

plus ill have you know that trying to CS as nidalee while starting with a dorans rings is great practices for your adc's becuase she is easily one of the hardest champs in the game to CS with (in human form)

No you don't understand the problem. She is extremely safe and has her cougar pre-6 now. No way to stop her from becoming a monster. She has easy farming with cougar. She has high damage and mobility with it and in human form she has an extremely long range spammable nuke.

She is the most toxic champ atm. You try to kill her she heals 600+. You try to dodge her spear she throws another one. Her mana costs aren't all that high considering she has no mana costs on her cougar.

And no champ in the game should do over 1k damage with a basic ability that is extremely long range. Look at Veigar. He has 0 mobility to make up for his high damage. His early game is terrible. All he has is damage. But why have him when you can have all that he has minus CC all game with more than double the mobility.

Nidalee needs her numbers cut back or utility removed. Saying she is one of the most balanced champs due to WR is utter stupidity. Why? Because her WR shot up 6% in s single patch. Tell me WR doesn't matter, but when it shoots up 6% in the span of about 1 week, there is a problem (usually its caused by people figuring out how to build and play a character or due to buffs).

Lee Sin has a 44-6% WR at all times and people complain about him. WR much of anything. WR spikes are usually the biggest indicator of a champion being broken.

And you act like you need 40% CDR for her pounce to reset to 3s. No she needs about 20% which when she builds a morello isn't that hard. On top of that it resets on kill.

Sure her spear is single target, but look at Veigar W. Does around 1k-1.2k damage end game with a huge cast animation and about a 10s CD that almost requires his stun. Nidalee has a fast moving spear that has huge range and is on a 6s CD

You act like she's the most balanced champ in the game when she is far from it.

SwiftKitten882 votes

nidalee can clear creep very easily in cougar form yes.. but buy doing so he has to use all 3 of her skills which although free in cougar form usally mean he has to be wining the game or else your lane oppoent can take free shots at which is a now "melee" champ in mid lane.

if you are having toruble vs nid here are some tips. play aggressive. nidalee can't trade unless she lands a spear and if you can deal any damage to her from behind your own creeps where she cant hit you she is forced to use her mana to heal that off. this makes it so she cant attack as often allowing you to push your lane more. nidalee does really well if she gets ahead becuase they she can buy mana regen and AP and if you let nidalee play agressive and dont punish her form trying to farm in cugar form your going to lose. that being sid trying to farm in cugar form while very effcient like i said is dangerous and set your up for taking free hits.

again everything about her has a plus side and a drawback. HENCE she is balanced. she is bursty BUT squishy she is mobile but has to land a hard-to-hit skillshot to take full advantage of it. she had a heal but it take alot of mana to sustain. and she canfarm for free in melee form buy by down so allows oppoent to easily take free shots on her.

EVERYTHING on her has a benefit and a drawback. THEREFORE she is balanced

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted} EVERYTHING on her has a benefit and a drawback. THEREFORE she is balanced

Lol no. She has range. Healing, mobility, damage, an on target gap closer. People do you not understand that she has the problem of out sustaining anyone she fights because of her heal combined with cougar form. 600 hp plus an AS boost. 205 Base healing plus around 700 AP (her average AP build has this much). Is 555 HP. That is a lot for someone who only has 1.8k HP. And her Q scales on a 6 damage=5AP ratio at max range 450 +700*1.2=1.3k. That is a lot for a 6s CD and is enough to almost one shot any squishy. On top of this she gets: 410 damage on her mobility spell, 565 on her swipe. 1140 on her Q (ignoring dragon buff boost to AD)and then add in 430 damage from lich bane.

That is in total just with cougar form: 565+1140+430+410=2545. That is assuming she uses her Q last like she should. That is a shit ton for the only thing being on them being hunt which requires either a trap or a spear adding in an extra about 350 (about the minimum damage from trap at that point on a squishy) or 430 if she shoves the spear down your throat. Meaning she can burst a single person for around 2.3k after resists late game every 6s. That is terribly broken especially when you don't even factor in her heal to escape as well as getting a reset on her jump to help her get out and her mobility boost from hunt and bushes.

Before she may have been hitting around 2k in her spear after resists but at least it was really her max safe damage every 6s. I mean Zed gets complained about for burst a single person down with around the same amount of damage if his ult actually gets to proc. This is a champ doing it over and over again in a fight getting Quadras because no one can live longer enough to kill her or CC her.

Also, just because a skill shot is hard doesn't mean that it isn't overpowered. So let's say we have a 2k damage skill shot with 2k range. But its on 1s CD and costs around 5% of your mana and has a decent flight time. Without mana regen you can throw 20 in 20s. Increased skill should only reap slightly higher rewards as has been said multiple times. If you give too much you run into the Nidalee problem (or Zed if you want to go that route).

Oriana is a really good example of how to balance skill and damage. She has the potential to have the best team fight for a mage in a game, but its only slightly better than someone like say Lissandra because of her ability to just pick ults. And they are both heavily skill shot reliant. Their roles in their fights are different but it is no doubt that Lissandra is a good team fighter but Ori is better and hence why she is played in the LCS frequently.

Just watch if Nidalee isn't changed she will have a target put on her back the second the Zed movement is done trying to nerf him into oblivion when he takes a lot more skill.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Lol no. She has range. Healing, mobility, damage, an on target gap closer. People do you not understand that she has the problem of out sustaining anyone she fights because of her heal combined with cougar form. 600 hp plus an AS boost. 205 Base healing plus around 700 AP (her average AP build has this much). Is 555 HP. That is a lot for someone who only has 1.8k HP. And her Q scales on a 6 damage=5AP ratio at max range 450 +700*1.2=1.3k. That is a lot for a 6s CD and is enough to almost one shot any squishy. On top of this she gets: 410 damage on her mobility spell, 565 on her swipe. 1140 on her Q (ignoring dragon buff boost to AD)and then add in 430 damage from lich bane.

That is in total just with cougar form: 565+1140+430+410=2545. That is assuming she uses her Q last like she should. That is a shit ton for the only thing being on them being hunt which requires either a trap or a spear adding in an extra about 350 (about the minimum damage from trap at that point on a squishy) or 430 if she shoves the spear down your throat. Meaning she can burst a single person for around 2.3k after resists late game every 6s. That is terribly broken especially when you don't even factor in her heal to escape as well as getting a reset on her jump to help her get out and her mobility boost from hunt and bushes.

Before she may have been hitting around 2k in her spear after resists but at least it was really her max safe damage every 6s. I mean Zed gets complained about for burst a single person down with around the same amount of damage if his ult actually gets to proc. This is a champ doing it over and over again in a fight getting Quadras because no one can live longer enough to kill her or CC her.

Also, just because a skill shot is hard doesn't mean that it isn't overpowered. So let's say we have a 2k damage skill shot with 2k range. But its on 1s CD and costs around 5% of your mana and has a decent flight time. Without mana regen you can throw 20 in 20s. Increased skill should only reap slightly higher rewards as has been said multiple times. If you give too much you run into the Nidalee problem (or Zed if you want to go that route).

Oriana is a really good example of how to balance skill and damage. She has the potential to have the best team fight for a mage in a game, but its only slightly better than someone like say Lissandra because of her ability to just pick ults. And they are both heavily skill shot reliant. Their roles in their fights are different but it is no doubt that Lissandra is a good team fighter but Ori is better and hence why she is played in the LCS frequently.

Just watch if Nidalee isn't changed she will have a target put on her back the second the Zed movement is done trying to nerf him into oblivion when he takes a lot more skill.

You could at least address the negatives he brought up about her rather than just going on another rant about how much damage she does late game.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

You could at least address the negatives he brought up about her rather than just going on another rant about how much damage she does late game.

So what she has a 6s window in which you can catch her without 1/3 of her damage when she has 2/3 of it left which is enough to kill you.

Sure she is squishy, but I mean when she kills tanks there's no point in trying to make that argument. Fighting her doesn't have very many windows and requires her to screw up. There is no counter play in her screwing up. That's putting you at the mercy of who you are fighting.

If Nidalee plays smart, she won't have mana issues and will harass you out of lane or at least far enough away from the farm that she can. On top of this she roams extremely well.

You can't really play aggressive against anyone pre-6 with nidalee. It isn't possible. Why? Because she will just wait you out then kill you because she sustains better. Sure its her weakest point but we are looking at some one like Azir. There is no defined weak point to her other than the generic: "She's squishy" argument. I mean you CC lock any person they will do bad (save Olaf). You focus someone down ofc they will do bad. That doesn't mean that Nidalee has any unique weaknesses. She has all the generic ones that work on every other champion in the game.

Saying to counter pick somone with insane late game and a pretty good early game and doesn't fall off at any point is kind of dumb. The champs I can truly know I will win lane against Nidalee: Azir (he's getting nerfed because Riot too dumb and made him a lane bully with late game), Veigar (counters AP champs in general), and Zed because I blow her up right after she spears (and guess who everyone thinks is OP).

On top of this you have to factor in her roaming potential of just snagging kills from other lanes which is really high so even if you do shut her down in lane, it doesn't mean you stopped her late game. This is caused by her huge damage on her spears.

Basically, Nidalee has a bunch of generic weaknesses that aren't defined. She isn't average in any other way. The only thing she sacrifices for being an assassin is AoE. I mean she even has an AS steroid on her heal. She is strong in every way imaginable minus the generic weaknesses.

PrinceOfStorms3 votes

If Nidalee is chunking you for that much, don't stand at max range.

When will people realize that Javelin Toss gains damage as it flies? Therefore, if you can't dodge the spear with a tiny hitbox, don't stand so far away that when it hits you, you'll die.

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

If Nidalee is chunking you for that much, don't stand at max range.

When will people realize that Javelin Toss gains damage as it flies? Therefore, if you can't dodge the spear with a tiny hitbox, don't stand so far away that when it hits you, you'll die.

Doesn't matter she can shove it down your throat for around 600 then nuke with Cougar. Either way you take about 2-3k damage depending on just how far she managed to get it.

And you act like the person that you know should be staying away from here (aka the squishies) should be right up in front just where you want them to be in order to get caught out.

Jefftiffy2 votes

Not really. I used to average a 2400 on her spear pre nerfs and rework. Now it does 20% less meaning about 1.9-2k if you build her pure AP. Now put in MR and thats about 1.5k damage (void staff nulls pretty much anything you build).

stealthfox942 votes

Good lord it's like the moment she's viable people complain about her.

Abyssphere2 votes

"Nidalee hits a difficult skill shot and then gets to assassinate me if she gets to execute her entire, crowd control void, combo". So much worse than Zed, Akali, and Katarina just targeting you and unleashing everything. Way worse than Veigar who gets to lock you down for the entire duration of his combo.

If you get hit with a Nidalee spear (one of the thinnest skill shots in the game) from 1300+ range away and can't stop a 750 range dash followed by everything else, you should probably consider what champ you're playing. Because I'm pretty sure any other assassin would delete you with far less restrictions and counterplay. Can you sidestep away from a Kat combo? Nope. Akali? Nope. LeBlanc? Not unless your reaction times are beyond godly. But literally walking to the side in the seconds it takes for Nid's spear to come renders her useless until she tries again. "But she can just throw another spear" yes she can, but every single missed spear is more time where she's not contributing anything, and where you're free to harass her.

I can also see basically no way for her to heal for 600 unless she has 800+ AP, nor hit for 1.5k with a spear unless she has a similar amount (and hits max range). In which case you've both stupidly fed her and built no resistances, and have not considered actually avoiding her slow, thin skill shot.

I really don't get how anything you bring up is a problem with Nid's kit. It all boils down to complaining that you're incapable of outplaying the easiest to outplay assassin in the game.

2000boxes1 votes

jungle tf counters nidalee

Jefftiffy1 votes

My point is that Nidalee has always been fairly viable, but Riot just keeps adding utility to an already toxic kit. Reworking her never solved her being toxic. Saying to stop an early game champ from getting to late game is a paradox. She has a lot of damage and her only barrier early game is mana. Late game she amps that damage even further while removing that mana gate. I have seen more Triple+ kills with Nidalee since her rework than before it because she can chain kills now instead of just trying to single out a single target.

I had a game last night where my team's J4 built tank with about 150 MR. One spear would drop him 1.2K HP. On a tank with MR. Tell me that isn't a problem on a 6s CD.

Fitz n The Fool1 votes

I agree shes toxic as fuck. Especially at level 2. Try playing a melee laner vs her its ridiculous. Get hit by a Q? Better be ready to Flash because here she comes leaping at you from the entire lane away to do assassin damage.

Her couger form damage is insanely high. I mean wtf? A champ that has 0 additional attack damage does some of the most absurd melee attacks in the game.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

nidalee jungle is a lot of fun, and shes not lee sin jarvan or vi

if we just nerf every champion that challenges lee in the jungle the second it's popular, then whats the point? finally we have a jungler thats strong and impacts games that isnt lee.

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