The jungle changes are more early-weak friendly than some would think

ReshiKillim··1 votes·825 views

You are not going to be required to get the scuttles to be doing well as a jungler. They are** valuable**, yes, but not so valuable that the game intrinsically punishes non-skirmisher junglers for not being strong at early 1v1s, nor is it going to drive them out of the jungle any more than skirmishers already do. It does however, open up an opportunity for most junglers that're weaker early.

Because if scuttles are a priority target for early strong junglers, you can predict what side the enemy will be focused on, and thus punish people for scuttle rushes. As it currently is, for an early weak champ, a scuttle isn't exactly a priority target. And it still won't be after the changes, because instead of trying to 1v1 skirmishers/fighters/strong early assassins for a scuttle like a monkey, you can just punish them by counterjungling them.

However, it is likely that champions like Fiddle, Rammus, and Sejuani are going to need some compensation for the changes, since they have some remarkably low clear speeds for junglers. None for Maokai would be really needed (besides a small amount of bonus damage to monsters maybe) though, as any real buff to him would be stronger in lane than it would be in the jungle.

Early weak champions in general aren't exactly the ones who're hit the hardest by this change, a number of them will actually handle it rather fine, Evelynn or Elise, for example. Kindred however, is an outlier in that it'd likely hit home extremely hard, since marks are telegraphed. But given that Wrekz (their creator) is doing some work on them, that shouldn't be a problem (hopefully).

The champions who have lowest counterjungling potential (mainly weak early tanks and Fiddle) are going to be hit the hardest, since they've got low clear speed, and just aren't good at invading the enemy jungle.

6 Comments

The Yetii Rider4 votes

That's the problem. The champions who have poor dueling potential are also fairly bad at counterjungling. That's because they have low early game damage, either because they are tied to scaling (AP junglers) or are item dependent (Bami's junglers). So the question I have for you, then, is what junglers make for poor duelists but DON'T have an issue counterjungling? It's pretty much just Nunu and Master Yi. Shyvana is the other primary counterjungler and she is a pretty fucking strong duelist.

Edit: Elise is a good counterjungler but a bad duelist? Lol. Elise has a stun and 2 damaging abilities on her Q, along with some spiders to block skill shots for her. How is she a bad duelist?

Evelynn is not going to be good to counterjungle early. Her low movement speed means that she may take longer to get across the river and kill the monsters than it takes for Lee Sin or Pantheon to kill the scuttle.

ReshiKillim1 votes

You brought up some really good points, though I hope that a negative impact to AP junglers will be offset by the changes to Runic Echoes and Talisman which will also be coming with these changes. Sure Evelynn's my fav AP jungle and kinda a main of mine, but other AP junglers really need the help far more than she will.

Bami's junglers, with the exception of Maokai, are gonna be worse off, but they're already pretty bad off, so they're going to need help either way.

Sustainable AoE damage is what mainly makes counterjungling on champs effective, which is why Shyvy is so good at it. She's mobile and she has a ton of AoE. Nunu is kinda the exception to that, since his Q is effectively a smite. Evelynn, Kayn, both of which are pretty horrible at early duels, but have good AoE, are pretty good at counterjungling, though Kayn is easily better at it than Eve.

Yi's alpha strike goes a pretty long way, so there's that.

Evelynn's got a pretty decent counterjungling capability, though it requires more aggression on the Eve player's part, and it's a bit more risky for her than others because like you said, she's got low movement speed, so you're going to have a rougher time with it if something goes wrong. Which is where knowing your matchups as Eve comes in. You can generally tell whether or not you can pull off counterjungling as Eve by who your opponent is.

Elise isn't a bad duelist, but she does lose out against skirmisher junglers, and a number of other junglers, since most of the skirmishers can just stat check her, and also outscale her. Which is why she's in a pretty rough spot overall.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Bami's junglers, with the exception of Maokai, are gonna be worse off.

Okay, so hold up. That is: Amumu Chogath DrMundo Hecarim Malphite Nautilus Ornn Rammus Sejuani Skarner TahmKench Volibear Zac who are going to be worse off. That's a LOT of junglers. Even if you take out the ones who aren't primary jungle, that's still many champions who are negatively impacted by this.

ReshiKillim1 votes

Amumu, Malphite, Hecarim, and Ornn should all benefit from the changes to Talisman, more mana available to them early on, though I'm not sure it'll totally offset the changes. Not sure if this would help offset things for Tahm, since he's a bit unique in how he jungles.

Skarner and Mundo's issues are mainly due to the natures of their kits, but I don't see it hitting them too terribly hard.

Naut, Rammus, and Sej are most likely going to get mangled by it in the jungle. But they're already in a bad state and it's definitely going to make things worse for them, but they've already got serious issues that need to be addressed.

Zac shouldn't be hurt too badly, more of a scrape to him, since he'll still be a majorly impactful presence as long as he's played right. He's never been much of a duelist, but he's got a pretty good clear, which shouldn't be harmed by the changes.

Volibear probably won't really notice much of a difference, besides leveling speed, since he's kinda-sorta somewhere between a skirmisher and a tank, while not really being a juggernaut.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

You already usually don't run out of mana in the jungle as Amumu or Malphite, and definitely not as Orrn (Orrn can literally just build more mana, wtf). Unless they increase the damage Talisman deals, it's not going to help clear speeds at all.

Mundo needs to constantly be leveling in order to get more health from leveling up to offset the cost of his Burning Agony in the jungle. Reducing XP on camps and putting it onto Scuttle, which takes AGES to clear and every ability Mundo uses to kill it will kill him more, is going to ruin him.

ReshiKillim1 votes

For Amumu, Malphite, and especially Hec the mana change is a bit of a buff early I would say, since you've got a lot more leeway in using mana for farming when you don't have blue. Like you stated, it's a bit iffy for Ornn, since you can just build more mana on demand, but I think it'd be a decent QoL change for him.

I really can't say much for Mundo, since he's probably my least played tank besides Sej, and I rarely encounter him in game so I'm not really familiar with how he plays out the jungle. So I'll take your word for it.

More from Gameplay

More by ReshiKillim