This game really feels like which ever team has the more op champions wins.

YoungFarmer·May 10, 2016·80 votes·3,738 views

You can do absolutely amazing in lane but if the enemy team has more viable champions than you you're going to lose.

89 Comments

LuggMay 10, 201631 votes

The game has been like that for it's entirety except for the tank meta. The tank meta was actually the least toxic and most balanced time IMHO.

Steel BlossomMay 10, 20164 votes

So long as you didn't count assassins.

EndlessSorcererMay 10, 201628 votes

Assassins still had their place in the game.

The main difference was that their purpose was to blow up squishy targets rather than any target and that they had to position themselves better to do it safely.

Steel BlossomMay 10, 20162 votes

Assassins had no way at all to punish tanks tho, they can't even stay behind and peel effectively because tanks had a permenant kayle ult with 200 armor....

EndlessSorcererMay 10, 201630 votes

Assassins aren't supposed to punish tanks; that isn't their purpose.

Assassins exist to murder squishy targets.

Assassins just had to change their approach to flank the enemy team or to wait out their enemy's lockdown rather than diving straight into a fight.

Steel BlossomMay 10, 20161 votes

When the enemy tank dives into our team headfirst with lackluster followups from his team, I would probably want to tag him with a small combo to melt him down for his bad engage with the rest of my team. But in a tank dominant meta, it took a full combo with ults and all just to deal 1/4 of a tank's HP. So assassins could either not waste their CDs at all to wait for a chance at the enemy back line, or use portions of their cooldown with literally 0 reward.

As for assassins having to change their approach...in my experience, a good team would keep their CC on a rotation, and set up decent vision to deny any nasty surprises. Assassins were working harder for less reward in that meta.

Another thing you have to consider, especially in non-competitive League, is that the tank meta made assassins take out a high-priority target on the enemy team and leave the rest to their teams. What if your ADC is behind and doesn't do enough damage to take down the tank before the tank kills him? What if the tank is the high-priority target, like a fed Nasus, or a Darius chopping everyone up? Assassins had no answer to those situations because tanks honestly only took damage from the assassin's ignite.

A Basic IslandMay 10, 20167 votes

then don't do the full combo, throw out your poke attack until a real engage

KillerKellMay 11, 201610 votes

Umm, if a Tank dove head first with NO FOLLOW UP, then you BYPASS THE TANK, since he's no longer Peeling for the Squishy.

Why would you tag him? He left his Carry exposed... now you have an Express Lane to the Carry.

KETSU0May 11, 20162 votes

Buddy i think u forgot carries have supports that make em untouchable with tons of disengage.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 201618 votes

Assassins should not be punshing tanks. If assassins are assassinating even tanks, then that means they are 1 shotting ADCs without even their full rotation, and a tank team usually has the bulk of their damage on the ADC.
I was plat in the tank meta and you know what one of the top bans was? Katarina. You know what another top ban was? LeBlanc. You know who was the top win rate champ? Ahri. You know who had a higher win rate in the tank meta than in season 6? Riven. And you know who was a top jungler during all this if Sejuani was banned? Rengar.

eeeeelMay 11, 20162 votes

Wait, aren't we talking about ekko, poppy, and maokai build sunfire visage and iceborn everygame tank meta?

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20166 votes

no the original cinderhulk tank meta.

the current meta isn't even a tank meta. Graves can absolutely destroy any of them in lane.

Jeddy017May 11, 201610 votes

Wrong "tank meta", the real & better tank meta was last year after the release of Cinderhulk. The only problem champs were those taking Cinderhulk like Gragas Sejuani & Sion (Cinderhulk top was an issue for a while)

IcyPepperMay 11, 20168 votes

Do you expect ADC's to effectively kill assassins at least 50% of the time? No, because assassins counter ADC's.

Look at it like this:

Assassin kills enemy ADC. Your ADC has an easier time killing the enemy tank because your tank lives longer and soaks up most of the oncoming damage.

ADC's have a hard time against assassins. Assassins have a hard time against tanks. It's the circle of life.

Of course, when balance gets fucked, that's not always the case, but we're talking general strats here.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 12, 20161 votes

i think the basic basic champ types are burst champs. sustained damage champs. and tanks. burst>squisbutsustainy>tanks>burst

tho we have fighters which are a ombination of all of them.

IcyPepperMay 12, 20161 votes

And hybrids of all types.

Graves, who gets tankier in extended engagements (and thus scales decently with health, since armor/MR is a multiplier for effective health) and bursty AF.

Diana, who's bursty with some sustained damage (mostly her passive, for clearing and trades) and some innate tankiness.

It goes on and on. Complexity is nice, otherwise we'd have too many cookie cutter champions. Balance suffers at times, though (Tank Ekko, anyone?).

BakedLotionMay 11, 20167 votes

{quoted}

The game has been like that for it's entirety except for the tank meta. The tank meta was actually the least toxic and most balanced time IMHO.

Less LC$BIGPLAYS during tank metas so cant have that happening

LuggMay 11, 20165 votes

Which I don't understand. The games where MUCH closer and more competitive. Which probably explains it since they had to boost the Korean teams back up.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 11, 20161 votes

Then explain why there were clear OP champions for every role during the tank meta? And explain why these champions had huge play rates + winrates since the game was so balanced. Less toxic lol, trying way to hard for that upvote farm with this one.

LuggMay 11, 20168 votes

The difference between the top tier champs and bottom tier champs was the closest it had ever been. There were only 4-5 OP champs and they were usually banned out. Plus there were a TON of viable Junglers and Supports and quite a few viable champs at the other positions. So yeah, it was the most balanced state so far.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 11, 20163 votes

No it wasn't. Champs like Eve, Kha'zix and Elise were considered unviable compared to Gragas, Rek'sai, and Sej who was permabanned, Which by the way that meta is only one of the few times we got to see a champion get that close to a 90% ban rate. Also Cinderhulk itself was so busted it was being built on top laners. Only tanks and AOE mages were viable in that meta, and only team fighting comps worked.

Things like fighters, assassins, and any type of utility support not named Lulu in the mid lane couldn't survive. And ADC was Jinx or Vayne, anyone else was a bad pick. In three roles, Top, Jungle, and Support, tanks ruled and anything else was second class. In the mid lane only AOE mages were viable. And you had choice of two adc's becasue if you took anyone else you would lose to them.

The highs and lows of that meta were extreme, just in the mid lane alone look at the difference between Ahri and Veigar.

LankPantsMay 11, 20166 votes

No it wasn't. Champs like Eve, Kha'zix and Elise were considered unviable compared to Gragas, Rek'sai, and Sej who was permabanned

They were also considered unviable in the Lee/J4/Rek'sai meta that preceded the tank meta. They were all undertuned and weak.

The difference is that tanks were all unviable in the Lee/J4/Rek meta and Lee/J4 weren't unviable in the tank meta. You also had guys like Amumu, Udyr, Rengar, Zac, Vi and Naut seeing play too.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20162 votes

Veigar was buffed back to relevance in 3 patches. Kalista was still a top ADC in the tank meta with one of the highest pro pick rates. Triforce Kog and Ashe both had 52% win rates and the 2nd highest win rate ADC after Jinx was Corki. Katarina thrived in that meta.

Elise was unviable in most of season 4 since her numbers got destroyed. Same with Kha. He received 5+ buffs before he started coming back due to Lizard-Hydra-full tank Kha giving him a 80% ban rate in season 4.

Other that Grag, Rek and Sej, you had Rengar, Lee, Vi, J4, Sion and Fiddlesticks, all of whom had over 50% win rate other than Lee. I personally was a Hecarim jungle/Nautilus support 2 trick pony for most of season 5 and climbed to plat 1 using "out of meta" champs.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 11, 20161 votes

You are using just win rates. You know how many "bad" champion I can name right now that have over 50% winrates. I mean all I have heard all season is how bad mages are, go look up how many mages have over a 50% win rate. And you can name all of those champions, but what was actually redeeming about picking them over the then power picks. It was just like any other meta, their were strong champions that were picked often. Their were champions that were second rate. Then their were trash champion. And the gap between those was not that small. Their was also only one good way to play at that time, just like every meta there was no real strategic diversity.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20164 votes

I personally played in a relatively high elo and knew that there was diversity in my games. I climbed with an out of meta champ myself.

YCitizenSnipsYMay 11, 20161 votes

Same can be said of any meta. Doens't mean the tank meta was any better for the game. Still had the same OP and UP picks. Still had the lack of diversity with most of the power picks seeing 20 to 30% pickrates. Still have only one good strategy. Still had lack of item diversity.

I don't personally car how well you can c limb with "off meta picks." There are plenty of master and challenger players who main "bad" champions. The point is the Tank meta wasn't better for the game. All the same problems of any other meta, its just that tank players make up most of these broads so they circle jerk about how great it was.

BluePolarizerMay 11, 20162 votes

right now the difference between highest win rate and lowest win rate, highest ban rate and lowest ban rate champs is higher than ever except possibly season 4 Kha'Zix and Kassadin.

KillerKellMay 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Veigar was buffed back to relevance in 3 patches. Kalista was still a top ADC in the tank meta with one of the highest pro pick rates. Triforce Kog and Ashe both had 52% win rates and the 2nd highest win rate ADC after Jinx was Corki. Katarina thrived in that meta.

Elise was unviable in most of season 4 since her numbers got destroyed. Same with Kha. He received 5+ buffs before he started coming back due to Lizard-Hydra-full tank Kha giving him a 80% ban rate in season 4.

Other that Grag, Rek and Sej, you had Rengar, Lee, Vi, J4, Sion and Fiddlesticks, all of whom had over 50% win rate other than Lee. I personally was a Hecarim jungle/Nautilus support 2 trick pony for most of season 5 and climbed to plat 1 using "out of meta" champs.

Not to mention you had, in LCS Play, Shen in Top, Support and Jungle.

In fact, just give me Old Shen back and call it a day.

LuggMay 11, 20162 votes

A champion considered unviable is different from one that is actually unviable. Eve and Elise still were viable in the right hands, K6 was probably in the unviable category at that time since there were plenty of junglers who did what he did better. Sej was definitely OP for awhile, but they nerfed her and things were much better at that stage of the tank meta which is what I'm referring too.

There were plenty of fighters and assassins that were viable. Assassins are always viable when mages are being played. Tank supports were the strongest, but other supports were still viable. Vayne and Jinx have been viable in pretty much every meta so far and other ADCs were definitely played often.

As for Ahri, she has never not been viable. Veigar was so strong before the delay on this stun, he was perma-banned in Korea.

YfrappefortMay 11, 201610 votes

{quoted}

The game has been like that for it's entirety except for the tank meta. The tank meta was actually the least toxic and most balanced time IMHO.

The tank meta before the juggernauts update was the best meta, agreed. Jungle diversity especially was astounding. Now look at it...

OleandervineMay 10, 201619 votes

It really burns me when people play these OP champs and then gloat that,they outplayed you, are winning, etc, as if their actual "skill" and not them face rolling the keyboard made a difference.

PbJMpP4xzkMay 10, 20164 votes

but remeber to not get toxic ehh.. but yeah you can brag all you want and triggers peoples all you want thats ok. and if peoples anwser back at you we will ban them keep up the good brag don't worry.

tidegateMay 10, 20162 votes

This right here, this is why league is a fucked up game

Blue Moon WolfMay 11, 20161 votes

Don't jump on ARAM right now then, I haven't gone one match today where someone didn't get an OP champ and start spaming their taunts >_>

PbJMpP4xzkMay 11, 20161 votes

its not only about the taunt, a player could spam the chat with "i am better than you, i will stomp you easily, don't cry when we gonna dance on your body and win" stuff like that and won't get any chat restriction or anything also they use the chat for the only purpose of making peoples tilt then when someone get hooked they procceed witht he classic "YOU MAD BRO ?" still if you anwser back to that you get banned and not them so yeah i am super happy that LYTE IS GONE since he was the reason league was like this.

Blue Moon WolfMay 11, 20163 votes

That's one reason I changed my chat changed to teammates only, so people don't try to pull this stupid "tilt enemy by being toxic strategy". It's not strategy, it's being a bad sport.

KillerKellMay 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

its not only about the taunt, a player could spam the chat with "i am better than you, i will stomp you easily, don't cry when we gonna dance on your body and win" stuff like that and won't get any chat restriction or anything also they use the chat for the only purpose of making peoples tilt then when someone get hooked they procceed witht he classic "YOU MAD BRO ?" still if you anwser back to that you get banned and not them so yeah i am super happy that LYTE IS GONE since he was the reason league was like this.

Why in the hell do you have All Chat on?

Man, don't do that. Of COURSE they are going to talk crap, try to tilt you.

You can solve that... by muting them. By taking All Chat off and only doing Team Chat.

PbJMpP4xzkMay 12, 20161 votes

even team chat is cancerous i fixed this for you

KillerKellMay 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

even team chat is cancerous i fixed this for you

It can be. Generally I have good fortune there. But All Chat... that's just asking for it.

KillerKellMay 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

It really burns me when people play these OP champs and then gloat that,they outplayed you, are winning, etc, as if their actual "skill" and not them face rolling the keyboard made a difference.

I can give you a Marine Corps Sniper Rifle, largely considered the best in the World.

There, you have the best Sniper Rifle in the World.

Doesn't mean jack crap if you can't use it.

I mean, if the Champ is so OP... why aren't you picking it for the Freelo? Why aren't you stomping them by taking that pick instead?

What I never, and I absolutely NEVER hear is "Man, I do great with the Champ... but I just can't stop him when facing him." It's always some one that gets stomped by Champ X but can't play Champ X for crap, then says Champ X is 'Easy' and 'OP' and 'No Skill'.

If it really was, you'd be climbing with him.

DarkSunSovereignMay 11, 20161 votes

Maybe you find that champ boring????? Maybe you don't like their personality???? IDK???? Not all of us are out there for freelo you know.

KillerKellMay 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you find that champ boring????? Maybe you don't like their personality???? IDK???? Not all of us are out there for freelo you know.

That's a fair point that I respect.

However, most discuss this OP issue when discussing Ranked... and Ranked is all about the W. If you can get the W and still hold to your role play ideals or lore ideals, cool. I still beg for an all Freljord Team when I go Ashe or Braum. :D

EndlessSorcererMay 11, 20161 votes

I actually do have that issue with Nasus and Malphite at times. I'm good at playing them and while I know how to play against him, I'm not always the best at implementing it.

That's largely because I'm a bit out of practice on my top laners and they work well against a good chunk of my champion pool.

There are also champions who can be difficult to play against and that I dislike (i.e. Leblanc, Riven, Zed) but I know that I'm not able to play them either because they are mechanically difficult to use well against competent opponents.

Then again, I do acknowledge this and I don't really make threads complaining about champions. I'll even defend champions I don't personally like (whether that is on my team or the enemy team) because I do acknowledge that they are balanced and have sufficient counterplay.

KillerKellMay 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I actually do have that issue with Nasus and Malphite at times. I'm good at playing them and while I know how to play against him, I'm not always the best at implementing it.

That's largely because I'm a bit out of practice on my top laners and they work well against a good chunk of my champion pool.

There are also champions who can be difficult to play against and that I dislike (i.e. Leblanc, Riven, Zed) but I know that I'm not able to play them either because they are mechanically difficult to sue well against competent opponents.

Then again, I do acknowledge this and I don't really make threads complaining about champions. I'll even defend champions I don't personally like (whether that is on my team or the enemy team) because I do acknowledge that they are balanced and have sufficient counterplay.

The same is true with me. I should never, and I do mean NEVER, play Zed. And unless I'm on a nice CC Champion, he wrecks me. Same for LeBlanc.

But I don't complain about them being OP. I realize those people worked their assess off to be Mechanically Sound on some really difficult to master Champions, and are reaping the rewards for it.

Just like if I'm on Old Shen, I don't believe anyone counters me (Champion-wise). About a 67% Win Rate and 4.25 KDA for my Ranked Career since Pre-Season 4 on Shen, BEFORE the Rework (like 1-6 this Season, but my last game was promising. I miss Old Shen). I've had games where I get no CS in lane due to a heavy Poke against me... but that's okay, Shen has a cheap build... wait until 6 and utilize my Ult for a nice Double Kill in Mid when Jungle dives my Mage. Problem solved, and Top is screwed now as I've got Items. I can only imagine how useless some felt facing my Shen, just as I feel facing their Zed or LeBlance (and I've taken Shen Mid to handle LeBlanc, Akali, Katarina when the guy who wanted Mid didn't want to face them).

So I get that some of these match ups suck, but I've proven that just selecting OP Champ doesn't net OP Results (my face plant as Lee Sin and Zed, for example... and though the KDA is okay my way to passive LeBlanc and Akali that really don't impact like they should). It still requires Player Skill.

I've seen Mundo's that flat out suck... and that Champion is DESIGNED to be hard to kill. My first Ranked as Rammus was horrid, and no one should suck on Rammus. Maybe not shine, but certainly not suck.

There is no such thing as a 'No Skill' Champion. Cowsep proves this. People say Master Yi takes no Skill... if that was true we'd ALL be Cowsep on Yi. We aren't. Sure, easy to LEARN... hard to MASTER (Yi). Pulling off dodges with Alpha, picking the right time to eat a turret with W, knowing when to Highlander... there is a lot to it both mentally and mechanically to play it LIKE COWSEP DOES. If he was really No Skill we'd all have Twitch and YouTube Accounts with our 'Yi Main Montage', and no viewers because everyone would say "So what, I do that all the time".

Just a pet peeve of mine. 9 times out of 10 when I see a 'Champ OP' thread what it REALLY says is "I can't beat them, I can't play them... I blame the Champion and Riot."

The Bíg TicketMay 10, 201614 votes

I agree. I can tell 80% of the time which team is gonna win after champ select.

Nameless VoiceMay 10, 201611 votes

This has been a problem for years, but I do think it's been getting worse instead of better as more and more champions are released / reworked.

It's not really "OP" as such though, it's usually the champions who are "broken" in some way - usually ones that have no clear weaknesses, have the ability to negate a wide variety of other champions, or are just generally low-risk-high-reward.

It's related to a thing I call "play negation". When your opponent has a champion with the ability to completely negate some (or many) of your plays, then the game is being decided far more by them and their pick than by your own skill.

There's now so many broken champions that you can never ban them all in one game, and since they're so game-changing, most people are going to pick the ones which are available.

The DeckownerMay 10, 20168 votes

rito is continuously reducing the skillfloor of this game, which eventually result in lesser impact of skill.

eeeeelMay 10, 20162 votes

While changing all skills into skillshots, ofc. Vlad E, Ryze Q, Taric E.. Wonder then are they gonna change Cass E into skillshot.

FourVsFiveMay 10, 20164 votes

Kinda how these games work, when you create 100+ champs you simply gonna be making champs that do the same thing as old champs but better.

DemainaNyxMay 12, 20162 votes

It all depends on how you play the game really, but I know what you mean. I can be a fed ADC or get my ADC fed as a support, but the minute we group, we die instantly cause no one wants to peel for the fed person. I'm surprised how many games I play where I'm the only one with any CC.

The biggest problem I see is that no one knows how to do anything but group. During the One for all games, I had one as Miss Fortune vs Brand. For whatever reason, my team of Miss Fortunes wanted to group so we could all ult at once despite the fact Brand has a better team fight capability. I would be off split pushing a tower and two Brands would come for me, I'd get a kill before dying to the other. If we had just done 1-3-1, we would've won. The Brands all pushed mid while I pushed bot and they murdered my teammates, yet I got their inhib tower, inhib, and nexus tower before they started recalling to stop me. The only reason we lost is that people stopped defending while I split.

Teaching people to do other things than group is such a hard thing since normally grouping is the right thing to do. However, if their team fight is better, stop team fighting. Learn to take objectives over kills, unless the kill will help you secure the object (dragon/baron). I've had so many games where we are on Baron and the enemy jungler walks over. I turn to cc him and my team just keeps trying to kill baron. If we all just turn on him, he'd be out of the picture before the rest of his team got there to help. Unless baron is close to being smite-able, peel off and kill this person. I'd rather not risk the 50-50 smite battle that normally goes in the enemy teams favor because our jungler can't say "no smite" when we start.