On Today's Episode of Boards Logic...

Toastey·Mar 17, 2016·1 votes·1,793 views

Me: "Jhin gets roughly 8000 free gold of AD at 6 items."

Boards: "He's BALANCED! You're WRONG!"

71 Comments

Zero Skill TankMar 17, 20166 votes

Damage stats have different values for him, because his basic attack don't work the way other champions attacks do. Without this AD bonus, AS would be worth almost exactly 0 on him. Similarly AD he gets is worth less because he can't attack fast, like other carries do. It can be clearly seen in how slow he takes turrets down - other carries can't crit on towers too, but they are not nearly that slow.

If Garen gained 20 AP every level for free would it be OP? No, because only way he could put it into use would be Lich Bane and Luden's. But theoretical gold value stays.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

go do the math, then come back.

jhin literally gets 8000 free gold at 6 items, net gain. every single one of his abilities scales with AD, and his optimal keystone mastery scales with AD. he squeezes every last drop out of that AD value.

Zero Skill TankMar 17, 20165 votes

He can gain 8 million for what I care, he still is fair to play against, and actually falls down late game, when he gets most bonus stats.

But hey, lets nerf him because Toasted Pigeon doesn't like the number.

BladeSteelMar 18, 20161 votes

Its funny cause if you ask him to show the math, or show proof he just shuts up lol.

XIII VanitasMar 18, 20161 votes

Jhin is probably a bit overtuned right now, tbh. Many high elo players think so. He will probably be nerfed. Nothing too drastic, maybe just removing the crit scaling from his passive. His power in lane is balanced, imo, the problem comes when he gets some items and he starts scaling too hard.

CatastropMar 17, 20164 votes

It's not like he has the Attack Speed to really put all that Damage to use, seriously, would you prefer him be like Draven ?

HorusEyeMar 17, 20164 votes

And you went 3/4/5 in your latest Jhin game instead of 30/4/5.

So wth is your point here?

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

lol 2/9 corki nice meme dude

i did the most damage on my team, outdamaging two of their carries. i had the most CS in the game. i was busting my ass to carry that corki and couldn't. context sure is nice, isn't it? :>

HorusEyeMar 17, 20163 votes

I don't see why context even matters when you had to post two of the same exact thread for some reason.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/bx3jguHE-jhin-passive-is-disgusting-invisible-power

Go get a pentakill or something if you really wanna prove of Jhin being "op".

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

the full stats that matter on adc for that game

kills: 3 deaths: 4 assists: 5 gold per minute: 355 damage per minute: 682 gold efficiency: 192% kill participation: 80% CS per minute: 6.5 gold share: 24% damage share: 35%

my team was that far down in the shitter, and i managed to put out numbers like that. only partially my own doing, honestly a huge part b/c of the free gold his passive grants.

for reference, faker's average DPM is ~700, and LCS ADC's average something like 680 DPM and 125% gold efficiency. Kramer has the highest damage share of any ADC in the entire LCK at ~34%.

the biggest story here is the gold efficiency and DPM. that's free gold at work right there, clear as day.

Mecha MaIphiteMar 17, 20162 votes

I had 858 damage per minute on Aatrox last game.

LoLKiruMar 17, 20163 votes

Considering as even with that much extra gold, he still doesn't have the highest winrate among ADC's (6th or 7th highest if I recall actually).

Yeah, he's pretty balanced.

Having two extra items worth of AD, yet still not completely flattening his competition. Pretty fair to me.

Gold values don't really work well with these kinds of things anyway, especially because Jhin applies those stats in completely different ways, especially because of the fact that he can't constantly put out damage like other carries.

Edit: Even with that extra gold, even those below him (up to Jinx, who is the 10th highest ADC in terms of winrate) are only below him by less than 1%.

QuephaMar 17, 20162 votes

Today on boards logic: 6 item builds are apparently FREE!

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

no, it means he pays for six items and gets 8 and a half items

QuephaMar 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XmLE6Npw,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-03-17T15:45:15.353+0000)

no, it means he pays for six items and gets 8 and a half items

a 30% discount is still nothing at all like "free"

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

You pay $16,000 for $24,000 of goods. You have received $8000 worth of free goods. Does this not make sense to you or do I have to break it down further

QuephaMar 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XmLE6Npw,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-17T17:19:39.238+0000)

You pay $16,000 for $24,000 of goods. You have received $8000 worth of free goods. Does this not make sense to you or do I have to break it down further

No, it doesn't make sense, because you had to spend 16,000 dollars. If you could have gotten that 8,000 dollars of additional goods without spending 16,000 dollars, then it would make sense, but you can't, so it doesn't.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

I...

are you a real person? ok fine, it's conditionally free, but it's ONLY conditionally free for one person and nobody else. there, how's that?

anyone else in the world could spend 16k, and some might get something like 18k worth of goods, or 20k. but only one person gets 24k worth. does that make sense???

QuephaMar 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XmLE6Npw,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-17T17:30:30.608+0000)

I...

are you a real person? ok fine, it's conditionally free, but it's ONLY conditionally free for one person and nobody else. there, how's that?

anyone else in the world could spend 16k, and some might get something like 18k worth of goods, or 20k. but only one person gets 24k worth. does that make sense???

It's not "conditionally" free or "practically" free or "literally" free or "figuratively" free or "basically" free.

It's not free because you pay for it which is the opposite of free because free means you don't have to pay for it

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

if you pay 16k, you don't have to pay another 8k but you receive another 8k worth of goods anyway.

that 8k is free. you didn't pay for it.

if you loaned me 5 bucks and i paid you back 15, have you not just received 10 free dollars if you gas up your car for 400km and it runs for 600km, did you not just get 200 free km if you bought 6 items' worth of AD and you got 8.5 items' worth of AD, is that not 300 free fucking AD

BladeSteelMar 17, 20161 votes

You bought 6 items....whose crit is reduced. and whose attack speed does nothing.

BTpeto TantrumMar 17, 20162 votes

There are a few champs who pretty much gain another item or two just by passives. Rammus translates armor to AD, Galio translates MR to AP, Yasuo has double crit chance. Because of the play style Jhin was made for, they need to give him something to make him be at least viable. If not for the AD scaling and percent health on the fourth bullet he'd pretty much be useless unless you play him support. (Please nobody try that...)

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

oooh an IMT fan rofl

go do the math, i bet none of them get an 8-9k net gain in free gold no matter what the build.

BTpeto TantrumMar 17, 20162 votes

You're missing the point... So what he gets "free gold" it's not like he can really take as much of an advantage of it as say TF, who literally gains free gold from his passive.

Also I was an IMT fan as soon as I saw their team, I've been a turtle fan since I started.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

alright fair enough, at least you're not the type of IMT fan that thinks they're the best team the west has ever produced. i'm a bjerg fan myself, and i really wish tsm would pull itself outta the dumpster. just let yellowstar shotcall...

he can take full advantage of the gold he gets. every single one of his abilities scales well of AD, and his optimal keystone mastery even has a 60% AD scaling. raw AD is exactly the stat he wants.

BTpeto TantrumMar 17, 20162 votes

I like Bjerg too lol, he's the reason I started playing a lot of Zed. It's sad that with all the potential TSM has they're doing so poorly. Sven really needs to start stepping it up.

Yes his abilities scale well, and if he is able to get to full build, or even be even build, he can 1v1 most people. I was able to 1v1 and slaughter a Cait that was much farther ahead than I was, but at the same time, you get four shots, then have to wait 2.5 seconds. I can see how you don't like the passive scalings, but at the same time, he needs help to be as good of an ADC as Rito planned him to be, an assassin marksman really needs to be able to full burst someone down. I do play a lot of assassins though so that might be why I like him so much lol

Also, which keystone are you referring to? Because personally I take warlord's which has no AD scaling, it just give lifesteal.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

heheh the TSM discussion is one for another thread and another time. svenskeren is the least of their problems.

you run warlord's? bro. you're missing out on MASSIVE amounts of free damage. run deathfire touch. late game, every single one of your abilities and auto-attacks will apply a 300-magic-damage burn. free mixed damage that scales with 60% AD. freelo.

my problem with the passive is that it gives him both a base bonus AND a stat conversion. 40% extra AD for no good reason is already ridiculous. cass only gets 30% AP from a fully-stacked passive, and zed gets only 25% extra bonus AD on an ability that he maxes last.

then you go and add a stat conversion rate to the already-massive 40% bonus AD, and it blows his abilities out of proportion. honestly, they should remove either the base or the stat conversion (i vote for removing the base), and then buffing the ratios on his abilities. if you remove the base 40% bonus AD at level 18, but retain the stat conversion and buff his ability ratios, it SHOULD translate to jhin becoming more item-dependent and gold-dependent. as it is, he's extremely gold-independent. forcing him to scale with items and only with items would prevent shit jhins from losing lane then still doing huge damage with 2-3 items when everyone else has 4-5 items.

BTpeto TantrumMar 17, 20161 votes

I've really just never liked deathfire lol. I have thought about playing it on Jhin, I just started trying to really learn him, so I'm seeing what works best. I definitely see what you're saying, don't get me wrong, I just feel like for the kind of play style demanded by Jhin, his abilities and everything are just fine. He has no dash, his w and e have high cooldowns, and his ult literally makes him stand still till he's done. With that kind of champ he'd need to be able to put out high damage then be able to walk away. The stat conversion is a little heavy, since you can just build full attack speed and crits, and still deal tons of damage on each auto, it's a little OP, but that takes a while to get to. Like all champs when they're new, they're much stronger than they will be, and potentially stronger than they should be (Tahm Kench) it might be a little while, but he'll get some nerfs I'm sure.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

tahm kench was hilariously underpowered on release. then they buffed the shit out of him and he showed up a bunch at worlds. then they nerfed him.

lucian was also hilariously underpowered on release. then they buffed him. then they nerfed him a little bit, and he's still one of the best ADC's for something like 8 months straight.

jhin's CD's shouldn't be that that high if you have essence reaver somewhere in there. try deathfire and build qss third if you're scared of damage. also don't flash or heal aggressively unless it'll literally turn the game in your favour, and you'll die a lot less.

BTpeto TantrumMar 17, 20161 votes

Lucian is my favorite ADC actually. I'll have to try essence reaver on him. I've just been going IE, Shiv, then build depending on the game. I'll probably try building him like I do Lucian actually since I focus more on the damage of his attacks than the speed of them.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

you get both essence and ie on jhin

ie/essence -> shiv/rapidfire (depending on if u need waveclear or safety) -> essence/ie (whichever you haven't gotten before)

Horse GrenadesMar 17, 20162 votes

You bitch a lot

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

would you rather just complacently watch a game with potential go to shit? i wouldn't.

Malicious MetalMar 17, 20164 votes

Stop bitching and actually try constructive criticism.

BladeSteelMar 18, 20161 votes

MALICIOUS METAL HAS SPOKEN...AND THE PIGEON FALLS SILENT.

Horse GrenadesMar 17, 20162 votes

I think the issues with your multiple complaint threads is that his win rates don't match up with your "OMG SO OP" post. He needs the extra item gold to make him viable. His win rate shows that right now.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

i don't give a rat's ass about what NA soloQ shows about champions. look at top-tier competitive play if you want to see a champion's strengths and weaknesses, because top-tier competitive play is where the game is played the way it's supposed to be played. soloQ winrates, especially in NA, are indicative of jack shit.

if you wanna go ahead and think that 8k gold of free AD is balanced, then go ahead.

Horse GrenadesMar 17, 20161 votes

Can you give me the numbers of the exact "op-ness" you are referring to?

Also, it seems like you are taking the smallest sample size and making it the crux of your argument. I think Jhin is strong, but I think he as way more counterplay than the jugger- Yi's, Fiora, and Shyvannas.. ::((

Edit: By exact numbers, I mean the 75% win rate he must have with all the free gold.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

as broken as 8k free gold is, it's not good enough to guarantee 3 wins every 4 games. there are 9 other players in the game, and their performances all factor into who wins and who doesn't.

i wish i could pull up a chart of DPM and gold efficiency for jhins across the world though. bet you anything the efficiency is monstrously high. honestly i'd consider anything under 150% efficiency to be an abject failure of a jhin game.

Horse GrenadesMar 17, 20161 votes

What you just said is the whole point. Give ANY OTHER CARRY and 8k gold lead and they would be able to carry way more than the 52% win rate he is at currently. Because of his staggered damage output he needs the gold. I agree he is strong right now, but there are WAYYY bigger and stronger problems than Jhinny..

i'm looking at you Shyvana MasterYi item 3931 item 3124

WarlockLawMar 17, 20162 votes

I saw people presenting sound arguments on why you were wrong, even a few different ones, yet you just kept reiterating your same argument. You kept saying everyone else was looking at him in a vacuum, but you were doing it more than them. You keep saying "free gold" but it most certainly isn't. He gains no direct benefit from attack speed. Building it gains him no increased attack speed or reload speed meaning it does not increase his rate of attacks at all. That is fairly relevant as the reload time and attack speed on Jhin are awful, especially late game. He also has no escape meaning that if he gets dived either his team peels for him or he dies. His ult has could range, but it shows you the area it can shoot in and forces Jhin to be stationary. His w range is amazing, but cast time makes it easy to dodge when it's not combo'd with other cc. His traps are pretty meh evident by the fact that some ppl max his other abilities before taking them. The point is he has trade-offs. Sure his damage is ridiculous, but it requires set up to actually go of. Attack Jhin on your terms not his.

At the end of the day Jhin is definitely strong right now. I'd attribute this to deathfire touch which adds to my personal opinion that deathfire and thunderlords should lose their ad scalings so ad damage and ap damage have same number of masteries, but I digress. Jhin is not breaking the game right now. He has the 6th highest win rate and 4th highest play rate among adcs in Plat+ at 52% and 19.5% respectively. Overall he is a tad overtuned, but from what I can tell not by much. He has defined weakness that can still be exploited.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

he gains no direct benefit from attack speed

GOOD LORD IN HEAVEN HE LITERALLY GETS BONUS % AD + % MOVESPEED ON 4TH AUTO FROM BUILDING ATTACK SPEED

yeah sure, you can throw every single conventional anti-ADC argument in the book at him, but then we get into a ceteris paribus comparison...which is where the free gold comes in. you're right, he is overtuned! guess what from?

i'll let you in on a secret. it's all that AD he gets from his passive.

also it's pretty annoying to see the "HE CAN'T BUILD ATTACK SPEED" argument over and over. if he can do 2 auto's worth of damage in one auto and spend the time that would have been spent autoing a second time to kite back, he's at an advantage. does that make sense? his play pattern is something like auto -> kite -> auto -> kite -> auto -> MASSIVE AUTO + Q -> kite over trap -> W to root -> kite to safety in fog -> ulti.

just take the first 4 auto -> kites. to output the same amount of damage there, a standard ADC would have to auto a bunch more and gain less distance, since autoattacking force-roots your character. jhin deals the same if not more damage while spending less time putting himself at risk. that's why he feels so strong. that's why he feels so safe and frustrating, unless you flash zed ult him or something. crucially, that's why high attack speed growth doesn't fucking matter on him.

WarlockLawMar 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XmLE6Npw,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-03-17T16:19:27.348+0000)

GOOD LORD IN HEAVEN HE LITERALLY GETS BONUS % AD + % MOVESPEED ON 4TH AUTO FROM BUILDING ATTACK SPEED

That is an indirect conversion, not direct.

yeah sure, you can throw every single conventional anti-ADC argument in the book at him, but then we get into a ceteris paribus comparison

Some adcs have mobility to get out when dived. The 3 adcs with higher playrate than him are Vayne, Ezreal and Lucian. Each have a way out when dived and can very easily kite a champion out. Jhin has a bonus movespeed on his crits, nothing else.

also it's pretty annoying to see the "HE CAN'T BUILD ATTACK SPEED" argument over and over. if he can do 2 auto's worth of damage in one auto and spend the time that would have been spent autoing a second time to kite back, he's at an advantage. does that make sense? his play pattern is something like auto -> kite -> auto -> kite -> auto -> MASSIVE AUTO + Q -> kite over trap -> W to root -> kite to safety in fog -> ulti.

The attack speed is hugely relevant to him. Saying that it isn't a weakness of his would be akin to saying that Yasuo not having a resource isn't a strength. It's there and it's something to consider when playing as or against him. Jax, Shen and Panth can easily avoid all of Jhin's damage because of their auto attack dodging capabilities, but other adcs attack frequently enough that they might be able to hit them a few times before dying to them. Also his single auto attacks, at least the first 3, do at best 150% the damage of another adc, and they get the benefit of being able to attack about 2 times as fast, or faster.

just take the first 4 auto -> kites. to output the same amount of damage there, a standard ADC would have to auto a bunch more and gain less distance, since autoattacking force-roots your character. jhin deals the same if not more damage while spending less time putting himself at risk. that's why he feels so strong. that's why he feels so safe and frustrating, unless you flash zed ult him or something. crucially, that's why high attack speed growth doesn't fucking matter on him.

When I have played against Jhin I have rarely felt he was too safe or frustrating. Most of the time I manage to take him out of every teamfight save for the games where his entire team is far ahead of mine. When playing as him, I usually feel I have below average control of my safety. relative to other adcs, but I have potential far higher burst and range. I also notice that I don't push turrets nearly as fast.

Take some time to learn to play against, maybe even consider counter-picking gasps him if he picks before you. Champions that can dive to him when he is ulting can kill him for free every time he ults. I've played Tahm Kench, TF and Nocturne against him and each of those 3 can go to him when he ults and force him to stop ulting or early or Jhin will die. As I mentioned before Shen, Pantheon and Jax can also kill him freely if they can get into range. Playing mobile champions makes his abilities useless.

There are other more pressing issues with the meta, like runic ekkos forcing out other jungle options or traditional ap mages are nonexistent. Jhin, while definitely strong, is not overbearing. Hell right, our strongest champion is still not even as overbearing as Graves was in the preseason.

JQKAndreiMar 17, 20162 votes

You got tons of detailed responses which also considered deep math and you call people for saying you're wrong? You just hear what YOU want to hear.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

also considered deep math

the only math that was present was some guy assigning an arbitrary "100 DPS" rate as a control variable then making shit up based on an already-bullshit starting point.

that, and a video from Jatt, which is actually evidence on my side? it clearly shows jhin getting 5k free gold at 4 items. imagine being ahead 5k gold on a jhin and not being able to outstrip his damage output. imagine how bad that would feel.

JQKAndreiMar 17, 20161 votes

There's a reason why Jhin gets 5k bonus gold, it's not "free", since he has fixed attack speed and his crits do reduced damage, but you just won't listen so it's useless to even try to explain.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

HOLLERS INTO THE FUCKING VOID THAT MATH WAS FOR NET GAIN FACTORING IN THE CONVERSION LOSS JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

JQKAndreiMar 17, 20163 votes

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/VrASPctlg5Y/hqdefault.jpg

You, right now.

ToasteyMar 17, 20161 votes

ooh nice constructive argument

got any others?

JQKAndreiMar 17, 20164 votes

Your main post doesn't ask for a constructive argument in the first place, if you wanted one, you could have asked in a different way ( be careful though, when you ask something you are supposed to listen to the answers).