If the counterplay to Illaoi's vessel is to stand and fight her, why does she auto-win against melee

Strawberrycocoa·Apr 19, 2016·2 votes·900 views

I don't fully understand the intended counterplay to Illaoi's vessel for melee champions. The idea is that you can attack her and it stops the vessel damage and prevents the debuff right? But she basically auto-wins in melee fights thanks to massive tentacle slaps. And if you try to clear out tentacles, you eat more slaps or lose farm or both.

So, if the intent behind her design is to "stand up to her" when she "tests" you, why are melee trades with her so god damned one-sided?

18 Comments

xl Kirito lxApr 19, 20162 votes

One of the biggest mistakes I see people make when fighting her is not understanding how the vessel works. The vessel echoes 35%+ of damage it takes onto you. Illaoi's going to attempt to line up spawn hits to hit the vessel, and the champion, effectively dealing 135%+ damage to the champion.

You stand and fight, but you have to position correctly to do so.

StrawberrycocoaApr 19, 20161 votes

Ugh, no wonder I exploded whenever I tried to fight her. Every time I've gone against her before I ran and cleared tentacles later, haven't tried standing against her much before. :/

GaleWinUnleashedApr 19, 20162 votes

If you move a bit so you're not right next to your detached soul, Illaoi has to make a choice. She can either chase you down and deal more damage while you're "stuck" in the area trying not to make yourself a vessel by leaving your soul behind. Or she can attempt to kill the soul, which sits nice and still so she can do her maximum dps to it with no problem. Option 2 also includes the handy bonus of transferring some of the damage to you.

Basically, it seems the second option is slightly overloaded if Illaoi's objective is to create a vessel by any means she can. Could perhaps use some tuning so that Illaoi has more incentive to attack you directly (inversely, give her less incentive to sit and smack your soul), even while your soul is sitting there making itself a nice target.

What if the damage transfer percentage was nerfed a bit? Do you think that might lessen the lose-lose feel of your options once you're grabbed?

Of course she also has some adjustments coming in with ~~Wednesday's~~ the 6.9 patch, so perhaps that will fix your problems.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 19, 20161 votes

As some one else said in the thread, they are removing the condition where fighting Illoai makes the vessel dissapear faster. She is a juggernaut, you aren't supposed to just walk up to them and fight them. If they wanted to make her force you to she should have been given a different CC, not something that still punishes you for exploiting the intended weakness of the class and getting away from her.

Darius pull and Garen silence do this better since you can still technically get away from them once its happened without further punishment, depending on how fed they are.

StrawberrycocoaApr 19, 20161 votes

I think "punished for exploiting the intended weakness" sums up my feelings on the whole thing nicely. You're supposed to "stand up to the bully", but that just gives her more power over you.

We'll see how Wednesday rolls though, I didn't know that big a change was in the pipe.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 19, 20161 votes

I think her changes are 6.9

GaleWinUnleashedApr 19, 20161 votes

Fair point with the Juggernaut and CC-type thing, though I'm pretty sure I didn't so much as hint at the debuff-time reduction that's used currently. It's obviously relevant, but doesn't greatly affect what I said either. Barely worth getting into when it's getting changed up on Wednesday, anyway.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 19, 20161 votes

PBE round up doesn't have anything about Illaoi for 6.8, has Riot actually said that these changes are going through this patch?

GaleWinUnleashedApr 19, 20161 votes

Hmmm. Honestly I think I've lost track of time. I read everything about it, but I can't for the life of me remember now if that's actually going out with this next patch.

redniwediSApr 19, 20161 votes

It's a 6.9 thing. Don't worry, I read it too.

GaleWinUnleashedApr 19, 20161 votes

Fixed first comment with that info, then.

StrawberrycocoaApr 19, 20161 votes

I think the lose-lose feel comes from the counter-intuitiveness of basically feeding her free damage by trying to disengage. As a melee champion I already now Illaoi will wreck my shit inside her zones of power, but having a disengagement strategy ALSO allow her to still make my day miserable just feels shitty. It's like once Vessel is cast there's not much you can do except pick a method of minimizing how much damage you take, either by risking a tentacle slap from standing toe-to-toe with her, or resign yourself to dodging line shots and clearing out tentacles.

I think the whole tentacle mini-game is kind of an aggravation point in itself, while I'm griping. It's just a bit too much time spent NOT pushing your own objectives, whether that be trading with Illaoi or farming. I don't really like anything that puts power into AI and not the player, and Vessel's tentacle spawns are completely AI based damage.

2 Weezy BabyApr 19, 20161 votes

If you think counterplaying illaoi means fighting her next to your vessel..... you've got a lot of practicing to do.

StrawberrycocoaApr 19, 20161 votes

Is that not right? i thought attacking her after she pulls out your soul was the way you reduce the uptime of the Vessel and prevent the tentacle spawning entirely. Otherwise you run away, eat the free damage she gets for beating on your soul, then find three tentacles to clear out.

ViashinoWizardApr 19, 20161 votes

The point is that you're encouraged to do it because hurting her makes the spirit despawn faster, but actually fighting her next to it is a bad idea because then both of you get hit by the tentacle slaps.

ViashinoWizardApr 19, 20161 votes

This is probably why they're removing the "damage Illaoi to reduce spirit duration" mechanic and adjusting the length accordingly.

StrawberrycocoaApr 19, 20161 votes

Oh that's really good too here, the debuff lasts way too damn long if you try to disengage. It's always frustrated me. >_>

I am PacmanApr 19, 20161 votes

Well I got to be honest, don't see much of illaoi anymore. She is just to immobile to have any real impact on the game. At least darius has pull and garen gets a speed buff but they only way illaoi wins is if you don't kite.

Her q is so goddam slow its pretty much always dodge-able, and if she ever uses ulti then just straight up walk away. Don't even look back, just walk away.

Onto her vessel.

When you get hit by it you got one of two options.

If you think you can dodge her q while fighting her then go in. Even if she hits q on vessel then its not enough damage to really win her the trade. (obviously if she has tentacles nearby then back off).

If you can't dodge her q due to low mobility/in tight spaces or jungle etc. Then just leave.

Honestly I'm surprised she is still played, she offers pretty much nothing to her team. The only way she wins teamfights is if the enemy keeps fighting after she ultis. Just run away and then re-engage after.

Just my two cents.