Not a Shen rework-hating thread. Open healthy discussion here

Señor Karthus·Jan 29, 2016·27 votes·4,938 views

I just really want to discuss about it and hear what other people have to say. In my opinion, so far I don't think the rework has given him any outstanding identity.

He is far less tanky.
He is not an assassin neither.
So far (and until we all figure out what is his best build) people are building AD-health on him, when none of his abilities scale with AD.
The above would make him a Juggernaut, which I don't think fits his identity.

On the plus side, I grant that he feels more ninja-y now. In the way that he is more damage and tricky oriented than it was before. But I feel that he is in a limbo of "not very damagy, not very tanky, not scaling much with what we build (with only the exception of the passive and the E)."

Thoughts?

144 Comments

Earl EulrichJan 29, 201622 votes

he´s a rightclick only champ without any real interaction. just check your logs after the game...most of his dmg is now physical and 80%of that stems from rightclicking. It´s just insanly boring.
a glowing stick that follows you or tells were you have been is really not ninja-like at all.

Señor KarthusJan 29, 201612 votes

Those are really good points actually. Also I think playing him before was fun. You had decisions to make like: poke enemy with Q or use it on minion to heal? and even then should I use it to recover more health over time or should i finish it with q to recover less health but immediately? When do I want to use the extra damage of my passive? I think there were a lot of small decision making while playing old Shen.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Another thing to think about: Why does Shen reliably have to be the only energy champion that actually has to worry about energy management?

QuephaJan 30, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Another thing to think about: Why does Shen reliably have to be the only energy champion that actually has to worry about energy management?

Because he's actually well designed.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20161 votes

Clearly not if his energy doesn't keep up with every other champ that has it.

SinlaireJan 30, 20163 votes

To be fair we are playing with a loaded deck here. Riot loves Zed and you're just short of brain dead if you ever use E on Akali . So naturally their rescource management is a little skewed in comparison since one is a love child and the other is supposed to be balanced around 4 skills but one shriveled up and fell off somewhere along the way.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Shen was one of the only champs that could easily beat Zed , I suppose they did have to fix that eventually eh?

AzteryzJan 29, 20163 votes

they need to make his q interaction a bit faster

the auto itself is a locked attack speed which is lower than shens actual attack speed

and bring back the dmg reduction on his e

as well as make the shield better

EcodeathJan 30, 20161 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2082790382/213915290?tab=stats

jungle shen is mixed

Earl EulrichJan 30, 20162 votes

it´s still more physical, and that with devourer applying 60magical dmg per hit - before the rework you usually ended up with ~2/3 of his dmg being magical, as his gameplay centered a lot more around his utility and ki-strike...no you just hit till you don´t hit.

EcodeathJan 30, 20161 votes

only 1k more physical

and thats because i was running ad runes cus runes r 2 expensive 4 me

Earl EulrichJan 30, 20163 votes

that still is a huge change...before the rework his playstyle had been focused mostly on his utility - e in ->short trades with ki-strike to deal some dmg and regain energy ->reposition -> e again. Now he plays like some kind of weakish bruiser...hitting all the time like a maniac instead of keeping calm and collected in the middle of a fight. and he dashes a sword around for reasons. like his old self after a serious drug addiction in a delirium tremens.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Most of my trading personally was done without E if I could avoid using it, it was more of a punishing tool in my case. You could do plenty of damage along with keeping your sustain up with the passive+q+w mix.

Earl EulrichJan 30, 20163 votes

in lane yes, but i refered to teamfights mostly as he talked about jungle-shen...with the old shen teamfights felt a lot more strategic to play, now it feels like you just hope noone notices you are there hitting away - which is rather the opposite of what a tank is supposed to do.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Another point is you're supposed to be bodyblocking for your teammates as a tank, why would you waste your time dragging a ghost through the enemy champs blasting your carries?

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20163 votes

Funny part is I actually used to do way more damage with the old Shen.

item 3075 and item 3025 had incredible damage and CD synergy on him, and both have severely reduced effectiveness now.

Their idea of a rework was literally to give him Mordekaiser's Q and a worse version of his old taunt? Where did his identity go?

TigerMama GemgemJan 30, 20164 votes

Except Morde's q actually does damage.

Shadowdepth80Jan 29, 201612 votes

His W feels so useless imo.. I liked jungle shen b4 rework, now it's just not intuitive.

bluebreeze52Jan 29, 20166 votes

I think the issue is trying to make him a ninja and a tank. These are two things that just conflict by their base concepts. They made him a better duelist to fit the ninja theme, but his tank identity suffered due to his new scalings. Not to mention they 100% killed AP Shen, which I found to be one of the funner offmeta builds.

QuephaJan 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I think the issue is trying to make him a ninja and a tank. These are two things that just conflict by their base concepts. They made him a better duelist to fit the ninja theme, but his tank identity suffered due to his new scalings. Not to mention they 100% killed AP Shen, which I found to be one of the funner offmeta builds.

They made him a better duelist with a dueling pattern that has more counterplay because his ult makes him into a split pusher. A split pusher that calls for a single low-priority champion to answer is a useless split pusher, especially when he doesn't push especially fast.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

I actually found myself dealing way more damage with the old Shen. item 3075 and item 3025 made me the damage leader of the match a couple times.

CremepieJan 29, 20165 votes

I like him alot with at least with item 3068 and item 3748 / item 3022 , your surprisingly oppressive to any one you can catch. He does feel alot less tanky, I think that's partially to the lower armor scaling. However he still works well near mid game, and better into the late game when his shield is up very often. I feel shen doesn't work as a full tank anymore, he's better off as a bruiser.

Thoughts from someone who rarely played shen before hand.

Edit: As for theme I dislike the whole Ki Blade that follows him around, cool in terms of aesthetics, but ultimately a bother to work with and not very ninja like to have a big glowing object near you.

Señor KarthusJan 29, 20165 votes

I agree the concept and visuals of the ki blade feel clunky.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

My question is why would they remove his only form of ranged attack and also give him worse armor scaling?

JorenciceJan 29, 20165 votes

I played him mid and against mages he's actually pretty good.

His taunt is dangerous to people that don't build armor and make ganks a joke.

The shield pretty much stops any harrasment

And 21% max health damage with a slow isn't a joke.

Shuriman CuratorJan 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I played him mid and against mages he's actually pretty good.

His taunt is dangerous to people that don't build armor and make ganks a joke.

The shield pretty much stops any harrasment

And 21% max health damage with a slow isn't a joke.

What's champs have you played against as Shen mid? I played the old Shen mid and did pretty well on most matchups.

JorenciceJan 29, 20163 votes

It was only 1 whole game. I'll play more tonight.

But It was a lux and I remember thinking...wow...this is broken.

As soon as I bought MR she became a joke. She just couldn't break my ki barrier. Since it was over 200 health with only 2 items built.

And since there was a kha zix jungle all I did was taunt her and it was a insta death. Between the taunt and the slow.

Ariel the CruelJan 29, 20164 votes

Lux has a fast snare, semi-decent wave clear, and her threat range is easily 5x Shen's. I guess it comes down to Shen's passive CD (I haven't used him yet), but it seems like Lux should have a relatively easy lane in that match-up.

Sightless66Jan 29, 20163 votes

I've played Shen against a Xerath, and I had the same experience as this guy. The advantage for Shen is that his passive CD is just stupidly low if you use it right. It was usually up anytime Xerath's Q was up, so he couldn't really get meaningful damage on me until the lane was almost over. I could use it to zone him away from autoattacks on the creeps pretty well. Lux would probably have a slightly easier matchup than that, but she's not going to win the lane through harass. She'll have to at least take a risk if she wants to get an effective trade against you.

You'd also be surprised at how quickly Shen can push. The Q deals a ton of bonus damage to minions and bami's cinder and sunfire got buffed for pushing.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Shen mid was a surprisingly reliable pick in a lot of midlane matchups between the sustain, short range poke and tankiness. A lot of midlaners had problems with dealing with the tanky sustain.

Señor KarthusJan 29, 20168 votes

I honestly think you just played against a bad Lux that fucked up a lot. She should have been able to root your ass and take most of your health before you could even taunt her.

JorenciceJan 29, 20164 votes

Lol. It's a skill shot that hits minions. It's not that hard to either bait out or dodge

Lux isn't as strong as people think.

And shens taunt is fast. Defiantly faster than luxs Q.

Ariel the CruelJan 29, 20169 votes

I don't think anyone is here is saying lux is strong. Just comparing kits, it seems odd that Shen would hard counter her as you imply.

HighbreadJan 29, 20161 votes

if she misses her stun, shes pretty much forced to retreat becuase of how squishy she is. If he lands a taunt, shes getting chunked

Sir YamazukiJan 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

if she misses her stun, shes pretty much forced to retreat becuase of how squishy she is. If he lands a taunt, shes getting chunked

Considering you think her Q is a stun I don't think you're qualified to discuss who wins this match up.

HawkefireJan 29, 20165 votes

Couple things, bear in mind I have only played a single game as new shen.

First off, he seems significantly weaker vs any ranged champion. It is nearly impossible for him to get he's q proc off on hem unless the enemy significantly miss positions or you land a taunt q combo.

Second, I really miss his old passive Ki Strike, which felt fairly fun to use and build for.

Third, his lack of sustain is quite saddening, I don't miss his old fairly non interactive q but losing the sustain aspect definitely was a negative.

Fourth, he is heavily reliant on his enemy fucking up in order for him to land a q. It is unbelievable how easy it is to dodge that thing or just simply make it so shen cannot hit you with it.

Fifth, his w dodge field feels fairly gimmicky. It is very hard to set up properly (largely because you can only pull the blade to yourself) and even when you do it is very easy to counter. The field is so small that it makes you an easy target for spells if you want to actually use it.

Sixth, I do like the new passive, and find it very interesting and fun to use, especially if you land abilities in a team fight which can cause it to proc a lot more. However, it is heavily reliant on him landing his q in a fight, which without taunt and against a competent opponent is extremely hard to do during lane phase (not as bad in tonight's because of the hectic nature, but still fairly hard, although I chalk this portion to my lack of skill with new shen).

That is all I got from it for now, still testing him out.

Señor KarthusJan 29, 20161 votes

W should also move the ki blade to his location. I don't think it would be too powerful because it is not like it dodges everything anyway. Just autoattacks.

drake102ndJan 29, 20162 votes

maybe more like an Orianna E? where you send it to a target location then it activates the zone. but since that would be a problem in game where he's just e it behind you then q it through. make its so he HAS to e near an ally. he cant just put it anywhere.

HawkefireJan 29, 20162 votes

Honestly I think they shouldn't really change the W necessarily, but they should change the Q instead. Where he can use his Q to move the blade, not to himself, but to a targeted location (similar to orianna's Q). I also feel there should be more reward when he actually hits someone with his Q, such as making it deal actual damage instead of slowing them (because it is almost impossible to actually get that slow off against an enemy, even in the average teamfight).

Ratchet FortuneJan 30, 20164 votes

What I really hate is when you cringe when you get a point after leveling and maxing your Q.

His W and E literally is so bad to put a point into. Both skills are 1 point wonders in my opinion.

The Yetii RiderJan 30, 20164 votes

The reason Shen is less tanky is not so much any base stat changes or itemization alteration.

It's the nerf to his E, specifically the removal of the debuff that reduces physical damage Shen takes from taunted enemies by 50%.

That was necessary to make Shen's kit work previously, but Riot most likely nerfed this in an effort to make Shen riskier.

SpecterVonBarenJan 30, 20162 votes

Or... or or or or! It's because he can taunt press Q and then press W to reduce the auto damage to 0?

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Which makes no sense given that it's a taunt. Taunts are supposed to synergize with thornmail, and if you're parrying the damage thornmail doesn't reflect it. Thematically nonsensical.

SpecterVonBarenJan 30, 20162 votes

So you'd rather not have complete immunity to autos for a few seconds so you stay healthier longer while CCing the enemy so your team can damage them? Okay, so Thornmail does nothing for those autos (not like it does much now on anyone besides Malphite and Rammus), so what? It's an optional buy and it will still be working once the W duration ends.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20162 votes

Yeah, I would actually, since it used to fill a very important role called "peeling." His abilities don't align well, and don't make much sense. If you're a tank why would you use your damage absorbing ability on yourself? Shouldn't you be saving that for your carries?

Usernamehere1235Jan 30, 20163 votes

I disagree mostly. He's certainly never been an 'assassin'. His identity that has stayed intact is his ultimate, and his taunt. Those are the two biggest spells he's had in his kit, and Riot was right to not change that. In lane, Shen was known as a never-lose-lane matchup. It used to be extremely difficult to stomp a Shen out of lane, because he had massive sustain, a shield, and of course very strong poke. Now he's more oriented in melee matchups, with much stronger dueling and much weaker poke/sustain. Poke champions counter him harder, and he counters certain melee matchups (most of them, early game) harder now too. I'd also say he's about equally tanky in terms of his kit. He has less sustain, yes, but a lot of that sustain was only very noticeable in lane when he was able to Q spam. He also lost his W shield, but gained a much stronger shield in his passive. His newer build does make him less tanky than he used to be, but that's for his benefit in the build. You don't have to build him with Titanic, for example. The only thing I'd agree with is that his build is meh. Titanic Hydra is an awkward pickup, and the only reason it works is because his procs with his Q are so damned strong, why not put more frontloaded damage on. Problem is, that strategy falls off late game pretty hard, because Titanic simply isn't enough late game. I'd feel that he'd be much better off building something different so that he can actually scale, but with his current scaling abilities, that simply won't be the case. So yeah, maybe they should change around his scaling / rework some item (HOW ABOUT WIT'S END, JESUS) to make him a tad more viable. Oh, and I'm a Shen main. :D

The Yetii RiderJan 30, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I disagree mostly. He's certainly never been an 'assassin'. His identity that has stayed intact is his ultimate, and his taunt. Those are the two biggest spells he's had in his kit, and Riot was right to not change that. In lane, Shen was known as a never-lose-lane matchup. It used to be extremely difficult to stomp a Shen out of lane, because he had massive sustain, a shield, and of course very strong poke. Now he's more oriented in melee matchups, with much stronger dueling and much weaker poke/sustain. Poke champions counter him harder, and he counters certain melee matchups (most of them, early game) harder now too. I'd also say he's about equally tanky in terms of his kit. He has less sustain, yes, but a lot of that sustain was only very noticeable in lane when he was able to Q spam. He also lost his W shield, but gained a much stronger shield in his passive. His newer build does make him less tanky than he used to be, but that's for his benefit in the build. You don't have to build him with Titanic, for example. The only thing I'd agree with is that his build is meh. Titanic Hydra is an awkward pickup, and the only reason it works is because his procs with his Q are so damned strong, why not put more frontloaded damage on. Problem is, that strategy falls off late game pretty hard, because Titanic simply isn't enough late game. I'd feel that he'd be much better off building something different so that he can actually scale, but with his current scaling abilities, that simply won't be the case. So yeah, maybe they should change around his scaling / rework some item (HOW ABOUT WIT'S END, JESUS) to make him a tad more viable. Oh, and I'm a Shen main. :D

If you're a Shen main and you think his E is still the same I'm surprised.

Old E - Shen taunts all enemies he hits, forcing them to attack Shen for 1.5 seconds. Shen takes 50% reduced damage from taunted enemies auto attacks.

New E - Shen taunts all enemies he hits, forcing them to attack Shen for 1.5 seconds.

EmollientNut0Jan 30, 20163 votes

Not to mention a higher cooldown, higher energy cost and it dealing physical damage to make his damage split even more annoying and confusing. The new taunt is bad. 1 ability that scales off health doesn't make him a "Health scaling champion" anymore.