Let's do a thought experiment really quick.

deadlychuck·Apr 23, 2017·1 votes·405 views

Take all the champions and items that are currently in the game. Reduce champion scaling of their primary stats by say 30%, in both respect to damage and defense. Then increase the stats provided by items by approximately the same amount (+30%), excluding CDR because obvious reasons. Then thrown in a few extra secondary scaling on champions for the stats they don't normally use, this mostly applies to the newer and reworked champions.

A few examples, + Bonus AD on E + AP scaling on W E armor pen scale with AP (think about it) + AP on passive + AP on dismounted Q and E + AP on passive + AP on her E + AD on his R exc. exc. exc.

What are the advantages and disadvantages to such a change?

11 Comments

TheHappyReaperzApr 23, 20171 votes

So the return of AP Yi/Trynd for every AD Fighter, Late game mages would just dominate because items are so strong, Junglers would fall behind significantly, or they would be overpowered, depends on the items they pickup. Advantages? You can build more stuff on different champs, and gold leads matter a lot more.

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

How do you figure? AP yi was broken because of 1:1 scaling on his Q, they changed it to AD scaling instead of lowering it. That doesn't mean having any AP scaling on it would break the champion. Also i don't think AP tryn was ever really a massive problem, this just seems to be exaggerated, he's silly and can be hard to kill, but what's the difference between that and AD tryn?

I don't see how you're going to say that late game mages would dominate, if they've had their scaling slashed and the enemies still have the early game to abuse them and win the game outright, which is pretty much what they do now anyway.

Then when it comes to jungling, i legitimately don't understand this, you'll have to explain your logic to me, because this seems like it'd be the least affected. You literally are trading damage scaling for higher stats, which are implemented by the lower scaling, so the net damage growth would pretty much be consistent.

Gold leads wouldn't really have a massive affect, because you're still getting the same damage increases for the same items. I guess the only exception to this would be raw AD, but kalista doesn't get 100% ad scaling on autos so .... :P

TheHappyReaperzApr 23, 20171 votes

If you add AP stats to fighters, it doesn't end well. Its either too weak to be useful, or too strong to be balanced. Which led to things like AP Trynd. It was not a good thing. Your E had, and I believe still does, a 1:1 AP ratio, but the AP ratio on your Q was much higher. Which meant, you did loads of damage, healed massive amounts, and then had your ult, which gives you immunity to death. So essentially, after scaling up enough, you couldn't die.

The reason why late game mages would dominate, is that items would become more important, since they have more power vested in them. Since late game mages don't rely on base damages, they rely on the items they pickup. And, since those items are stronger, they are stronger. While they would be weaker early, so would everyone else, the difference is they would scale better. It would be the, "Stall till 30 minutes, then gg" kind of situation.

Junglers are seperated into several categories, but the ones I'm talking about are early game, and late game. For example, Elise. Elise has high base damages, but falls of over time. If you slash her base damages, while buffing item, which she doesn't scale as well off of, you are nerfing her. Conversely, someone like Yi. Yi doesn't rely on base damages, instead uses items to increase his power. If you slash his stats, he's weaker, but since he scales better off of items, he is overall stronger.

With gold leads, since base damages aren't as strong having more gold, and more items, than your opponent, sets you at a much higher advantage. Therefore, gold leads are more important, and more rewarding.

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

To be clear, i said

Reduce champion scaling of their primary stats by say 30%

Some base damages might need to be adjusted, but i never said anything about fucking with base values. So acting as if this is some pivotal factor in this experiment is invalid.

You seemed to have completely missed the part where i said that you decrease scaling proportionately, so yes, a late game mage benefits more from items, but the items aren't becoming "more important", they're staying approximately just as important as they are now.

I'll use annie as an example. Annie's Q currently scales 80% with AP. If you had an annie with a 400 AP build she'd gain 320 damage on her Q. Now, say you cut that to 60% scaling (25% less scaling), while increasing her AP (with the same build) to 520 (+30% more AP). she'd gain 312 damage on her Q.

Now, i know i didn't decrease her scaling by quite 30%, but because math, they wouldn't be the same amount.

Now again back to AP tryn, you could easily account for the AP issues by applying the scaling reduction to his currently existing AP scalings too. I mean, after all, i'm not going to act as if AP varus's abilities wouldn't be insanely busted if you were to not reduce their scalings in this experiment. Lol, that said, i'd be happy to go from 45% max HP triple W procs to 55% xD

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

Aatrox Gangplank Hecarim Gnar Jayce Pantheon Rengar Yasuo Yorick Trundle Udyr Fiora Nocturne Nasus Shyvana XinZhao

But yeah.

If you add AP stats to fighters, it doesn't end well.

And just to make this clear, i'm not saying that these kinds of alternative scalings would be "useful" only that they'd exist.

TheHappyReaperzApr 23, 20171 votes

If they are too weak to be useful, as they are with about 80-90% of the above, why the hell would you add them?

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Your need for babysitting is distrubing. But you're gonna make me do this

Aatrox 100% AP on R Ashe 100% AP on R Blitzcrank 100% AD on E Caitlyn 80% AP on E Fiora 100% AP on W Gangplank 90% AP on W, 120% AP on R Gnar 100% AP on W Graves 60% AP on W Hecarim 80% AP on W, 100% AP on R Irelia 50% AP on E, 200% AP on R JarvanIV 80% AP on E Jayce 100% AP on W Jhin 100% AP on E Jinx 100% AP on E Katarina 100% bonus AD on P, 50% AD on E, 330% bonus AD on R Kennen 80% AD on W Lucian 90% AP on W, 300% AP on R Malzahar 40% bouns AD on W MissFortune 35% AP on Q, 80% AP on E, 20% AP on R Mordekaiser 90% AD on Q, 60% AD on E Nasus 120% AP on E, 1%/100 AP on R Nidalee 75% AD on Q Nocturne 15% AP on P, 100% AP on E Pantheon 100% AP on W, 100% AP on R Poppy 70% AP on W Quinn 50% AP on Q RekSai 70% AP on Q Renekton 300% AP on R Rengar 80% AP on W Shyvana 12.5% AP on W, 30% AP on E, 70% AP on R Sion 80% AP on W, 40% AP on E Sivir 50% AP on Q Thresh 200% AD on E Tristana 50% AP on W, 50% AP on E, 100% AP on R Tryndamere 150% AP on Q, 100% AP on E Twitch 120Ap on E Urgot 80% AP on W Varus 25%+2%/100AP on W, 100% AP on R 70% AP on E MonkeyKing 60% AP on W XinZhao 40% AP on W, 60% AP on E Yasuo 60% on E

If it hasn't been made clear yet, i'll spell it out for you because you seem to need all the assistance you can get to get anywhere. #IT'S BAD TO PIGEONHOLE PLAYERS

Now, it's bound to happen to some extent or another, but the less you can do, the better the game tends to be. Players are on their own to not pick the worse options, but aren't prevented from doing so either. Mind you, this whole idea of moving power back to items, is to better empower the different secondary scaling options which would be added to champions. If you give champions more stats, than their secondary scaling, or builds around those scaling, become more viable without actually changing the effectiveness of the primary builds. If you were to give every champion a secondary scaling (be it AP or AD) on one or multiple of their abilities, then you would DOUBLE the number of effective champions in the game. Yet every single one of these builds would be easy to keep below the power of the primary build, by simply adjusting the scaling appropriately. After all, mechanically they have access to the same abilities, they'd just changing their damage type and patterns.

TheHappyReaperzApr 23, 20171 votes

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-23810-Darth-Vader-I-find-your-lack-o-7tOl.gif?nodirect

I don't think you realize this, but adding useless scalings does not allow players to build alternatly. For the large amjority of the champion on that list, only Morde, Shyv, and Varus are able to pull off going full AP/hybrid. For literally all of the other champions, the only time the AP scaling is used, is when you are doing something "meta-breaking", like full crit Garen. Its not viable. Its not usefull. Its just pointless. I don't know how to spell it out to you further.

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

And just to make this clear, i'm not saying that these kinds of alternative scalings would be "useful" only that they'd exist.

No clearly, i don't understand that.

It's just fun. What a shame that the game would have fun things in it, at the cost of no other aspects of the game.

Siegfriedx2Apr 23, 20171 votes

Things like tank fizz and champions like doctor mundo should rise in this kind of change you said(mundo q don't scale with anything).

Actually because people don't build tank items because of health scaling status, tank builds would become absurdly op and supports would frustrate almost all attempts of anything with their base numbers.

deadlychuckApr 23, 20171 votes

I mean, i never said base numbers wouldn't have to be adjusted in some cases. Though, i don't think that the tank builds would be as big of a problem as you claim. After all, things like botrk would be getting indirectly buffed and any shielding or healing a tank might have would again be taking a hit by the reduced scaling, which often scales with their bonus, or total, HP.

Tanks would have more resistances, but because of diminishing returns, they wouldn't benefit from the full increase, and it's not like defensive stats are exclusive to tanks, other champions would also be getting an equal increase to their purchased health, life steal, and/or resistances. Which again, because of diminishing returns would actually result in giving more value to purchasing 1 or 2 defensive items, instead of a full tank build.