I'm 17-2-10 Vel'koz and I literally cannot do anything late game because everyone is moving so fast

Yenn·Jun 18, 2018·6 votes·2,046 views

Can something please be done to improve how unreliable skill shot champions are in the late game?

These kits were designed for older times, where every champion didn't have access to ridiculous amounts of movement speed. Landing anything becomes less about skill and more about the opponent being bad or not paying attention, because they're now moving so fast that it's extremely hard for them to get hit.

36 Comments

ForFoxSakesJun 18, 20186 votes

swap out item 3151 for item 3116 then to keep them in the area longer

your team was seriously lacking CC to complement your damage otherise

JackMcSnipeyzJun 18, 20186 votes

I mean, just do the same thing you did for the rest of the 27 times you killed/assisted killing someone?

JamareeJun 18, 20185 votes

Your opponent team literally only had one dash between all five of them, really dude?

Darius no innate MS Udyr has a MS increase Orianna has an MS increase Blitzcrank has an MS increase and Lucian has a dash.

At what point does it become you just need to aim better?

YennJun 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Your opponent team literally only had one dash between all five of them, really dude?

Darius no innate MS Udyr has a MS increase Orianna has an MS increase Blitzcrank has an MS increase and Lucian has a dash.

At what point does it become you just need to aim better?

I'm not talking about dashes, I'm talking about movement speed?

Why even post that? Dashes are a 'get out of jail free' card on a cooldown, movement speed just makes it consistently easier to avoid things.

Also, I'm 17-2-10 on Vel'koz, I clearly know how to aim, so I'm even less sure why you even posted that.

JamareeJun 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking about dashes, I'm talking about movement speed?

Why even post that? Dashes are a 'get out of jail free' card on a cooldown, movement speed just makes it consistently easier to avoid things.

Also, I'm 17-2-10 on Vel'koz, I clearly know how to aim, so I'm even less sure why you even posted that.

Yeah good idea, let's remove MS increases.

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20181 votes

Sarcasm is the fallback of those who can't think clearly enough to make a logical argument.

Kurt HyzanJun 18, 20181 votes

I feel you. It sucks being ahead but can't fight anyone who relies on AA, because they can dodge your skills and you can't dodge their AA.

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20181 votes

And at what point will you no longer be able to even approximately predict where an opponent will be, regardless of skill? If you throw a skillshot that takes a second to travel at an opponent that is moving that distance or more in half that time, and in any direction on a dime....what good does aim do?

JamareeJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Despìca Bìll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-06-18T07:46:17.449+0000)

And at what point will you no longer be able to even approximately predict where an opponent will be, regardless of skill? If you throw a skillshot that takes a second to travel at an opponent that is moving that distance or more in half that time, and in any direction on a dime....what good does aim do?

That why is goes past aiming and falls into prediction, you knew this when playing Vel Koz, if you didn't want to worry about skillshots, don't play him. Side note, this is all Yenn does, play lower tier then bitches, why are you taking him seriously?

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20181 votes

So, if I can move 5 meters in a dynamic direction in 1 second, and your skillshot can go 3 meters in a static direction in 1 second, you think you can predict enough skillshots to do any meaningful damage to me? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you can't, because none of your three top champs have any skillshots at all, they're all point-and-click or AoE. Since you and Yenn are both plat 3, you're of comparable skill levels, and he at least has some experience with trying to land skillshots late game at high ELO, so I'm also going to guess that you don't understand very well how hard it is to predict objects moving and changing course that fast. "Don't play champs with skillshots" is not meaningful advice when the reason they're not working has only half to do with your own skill at best.

I'm taking Yenn seriously because he's making logical, unemotional arguments based off of his experience. Your arguments are emotional, juvenile, and based off of straw men. You've obviously discovered that skillshots are hard to hit, so you just decided to play point-and-click/AoE champions...fine, but talking like someone is stupid for trying to do something you gave up on is childish. This appears to be all you do. How are you any better than the person you're accusing of bitching?

JamareeJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Despìca Bìll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T09:06:45.125+0000)

So, if I can move 5 meters in a dynamic direction in 1 second, and your skillshot can go 3 meters in a static direction in 1 second, you think you can predict enough skillshots to do any meaningful damage to me?

Yeah, you kind of have to, that is the difficulty of skillshots.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you can't, because none of your three top champs have any skillshots at all, they're all point-and-click or AoE.

I know I can't, hence why I don't play skillshot based champions, I know my own personal skill is too lacking to predict and read skillshots well enough to utilize them, hence why I don't play skillshot champions.

Since you and Yenn are both plat 3, you're of comparable skill levels, and he at least has some experience with trying to land skillshots late game at high ELO, so I'm also going to guess that you don't understand very well how hard it is to predict objects moving and changing course that fast. "Don't play champs with skillshots" is not meaningful advice when the reason they're not working has only half to do with your own skill at best.

You act like skillshots are the only things you have to read and predict in this game. Case in point, one of my most common match ups top lane is my Vlad vs Darius. While the lane is in my favor if I play well, it is a dance that you have to do, I have to properly space out my distance, waiting until he turns around before I can use my Q or else he can pull me in or Q me and push the lane in his favor. That is League of Legends at its core, reading the map, predicting the locations of your enemies, predicting when and where your allies will engage or where your opponent is.

I'm taking Yenn seriously because he's making logical, unemotional arguments based off of his experience. Your arguments are emotional, juvenile, and based off of straw men. You've obviously discovered that skillshots are hard to hit, so you just decided to play point-and-click/AoE champions...fine, but talking like someone is stupid for trying to do something you gave up on is childish. This appears to be all you do. How are you any better than the person you're accusing of bitching.

What is serious about it, all he does is whine about how underpowered his champions are, while most of the time, his champions having pretty balanced win rates especially at his elo. He is complaining about too much mobility when the LITERAL only REAL mobility the opponent team had was a single dash, it wasn't like he was facing Yasou, Kalista, Tristana, Zoe or a plethora of other champions that have the ability to dance around the battlefield repositioning, no, he was fighting all champions that WALK towards him to kill him, and the ADC Lucian's dash, one of the shortest in the game at that. He is complaining about MS increases, really, where is the logic in that?

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20181 votes

This whole comment, all of it...this was so much better. I looked at some of your other stuff, too. You're usually well-spoken, funny, and logical, it seems. Why did that go away in Yenn's thread?

Sounds like you and Yenn have a history. I looked through some of his other posts, and it does appear that he does a lot of bitching. It also appears that you exclusively post in General Discussion, and almost exclusively comment in Gameplay/Player Behavior. So, he likes making posts bitching about the gameplay, and you like making comments bitching about everyone else's posts. I just don't understand why you picked Yenn to follow and insult. So he thinks a lot of the game is unfair/unbalanced/fucked up...so what? Commenting from the side lines to say "no you" isn't any better, you just picked him to bitch at instead of the game. Mind you, I bitch at loads of people...rude people, mostly. I just don't understand what it is about this post in particular that got under your skin? Especially since you're not like this in other posts, and you both have similarly rational minds.

In this particular post, I thought he made a good point. He didn't scream at Riot to change something, call anyone names, or make vague suppositions. He clearly stated what his problem was, and then invited discussion, which he replied to without being rude, even when disagreeing. I, personally, agree with him. I play a lot of skillshot-heavy champs, because I'm effective with them at this level. I've noticed, though, that it has gotten increasingly easier to dodge them for champs that had clear movement weaknesses before, and extremely difficult to hit anybody with decent base MS and a mobility item or two. Add Ghost and kit MS increases to that...well, you see the problem. If random tards at my level can do it with mostly luck, high-level players could do ungodly things. No one is complaining about MS increases...they're complaining about how mobility items, runes, buffs, summoner spells, and MS increases are stacking to make some champions much faster than anyone is equipped to deal with.

Rather than getting rid of MS boosts or items, which no one was actually suggesting, I'd rather see the speed of skillshot projectiles increase over the course of the game in some way, maybe with champion level/skill point allocation. Or maybe make items that do this. Something besides just giving up on skillshot-dependent champs.

JamareeJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Despìca Bìll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T10:32:49.202+0000)

This whole comment, all of it...this was so much better. I looked at some of your other stuff, too. You're usually well-spoken, funny, and logical, it seems. Why did that go away in Yenn's thread?

Because ALL Yenn does is bitch, and whine, and moan and complain. He constantly whines about how weak his champions are, how useless they are, how subpar they are even though the numbers CLEARLY don't support it. Seriously, none of his champions main champions have a below 50% win rate at his elo. He is basically the LowTierGod of these forums, if you don't know who that is, he is a semi pro fighting game player who comes up with every excuse in the book about how it isn't his fault for anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH8XtUqOLpg

Sounds like you and Yenn have a history. I looked through some of his other posts, and it does appear that he does a lot of bitching. It also appears that you exclusively post in General Discussion, and almost exclusively comment in Gameplay/Player Behavior. So, he likes making posts bitching about the gameplay, and you like making comments bitching about everyone else's posts. I just don't understand why you picked Yenn to follow and insult. So he thinks a lot of the game is unfair/unbalanced/fucked up...so what? Commenting from the side lines to say "no you" isn't any better, you just picked him to bitch at instead of the game. Mind you, I bitch at loads of people...rude people, mostly. I just don't understand what it is about this post in particular that got under your skin? Especially since you're not like this in other posts, and you both have similarly rational minds.

Because he has been bitching since literally the old forums about the same shit every day.

Rather than getting rid of MS boosts or items, which no one was actually suggesting, I'd rather see the speed of skillshot projectiles increase over the course of the game in some way, maybe with champion level/skill point allocation. Or maybe make items that do this. Something besides just giving up on skillshot-dependent champs.

Horrible idea for the item, certain champions would use it too well.

Despìca BìllJun 19, 20181 votes

Ah. Yeah, if he's been doing it that long, I see why you'd be annoyed. The video was funny. I get why LowTierGod was irritated, but the solution is to either adopt the "cheap" tactics or quit playing. I'd be embarrassed to lose my cool this much on a stream.

Sure, maybe, but what about the rest of it? If you're gonna keep adding MS to the game, it makes sense to add ways to counter it.

I'm a student of human interaction and reaction, and it makes me curious when I see things that don't add up. Sometimes I learn something. More often, I find that I simply didn't have the whole picture...that in itself tells me something interesting. In any case, I try to give something back to those I talk to. I noticed you spend a lot of time critiquing other people's ideas, but rarely offer any alternatives. It's easy to tear down someone else's idea, but few are going to respond well to that if you don't have a better one to replace it.

JamareeJun 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Despìca Bìll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=00000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-19T13:31:40.086+0000)

Ah. Yeah, if he's been doing it that long, I see why you'd be annoyed. The video was funny. I get why LowTierGod was irritated, but the solution is to either adopt the "cheap" tactics or quit playing. I'd be embarrassed to lose my cool this much on a stream.

Exactly, EVERYTIME Yenn loses, he will immediately whine about it on the forums, it is NEVER his fault.

MalakJun 18, 20182 votes

It's really clear how dumb the MS powercreep has gotten when you play Karthus.

You aim deadcenter at your opponent, but with above normal movement speed you can leave the dangerzone before it triggers. zzz

i basically have to predict where they're going and have them move into the zone.

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20182 votes

Exactly the point the OP was making. Karthus is by far the most irritating instance of this.

BLACK REALM GODJun 18, 20182 votes

WAIT WAIT WAIT

you want... EASIER SKILL shots?!?!?!

YennJun 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-06-18T05:28:22.199+0000)

WAIT WAIT WAIT

you want... EASIER SKILL shots?!?!?!

k.

Easier implies that them landing relies on where you aim them, which is completely false in the late game; it relies on the target not reacting quickly enough or not noticing.

Landing late game skill shots on anyone above Gold is 100% the target's fault and not because you aimed well. There's enough movement speed available that most champions have nearly an entire second to react and side step.

BLACK REALM GODJun 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Easier implies that them landing relies on where you aim them, which is completely false in the late game; it relies on the target not reacting quickly enough or not noticing.

Landing late game skill shots on anyone above Gold is 100% the target's fault and not because you aimed well. There's enough movement speed available that most champions have nearly an entire second to react and side step.

you have 3 skills shots and you cant land a single one?

i think you have more problems with velkoz than just fast movement on the enemy team.

for starters velkoz's entire kit is gimped.

item 3194

my advice is to start buying item 3116 and set up your other abilities with the slow on w.

velkoz's kit is designed to deny areas. not to 1v1.

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20181 votes

That's not what he said. He said they're unreliable because of late-game mobility creep, which they are. Offering obviously incorrect conclusions to refute an argument is a child's tactic.

Kurt HyzanJun 18, 20181 votes

No, less way to dodge them.

BLACK REALM GODJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kurt Hyzan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2018-06-18T15:22:55.303+0000)

No, less way to dodge them.

OHHHHH I SEE.

so there's a different when the enemy team has something taken away versus when you're given something extra. one is apparently not considered making the game easier?

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Kurt HyzanJun 18, 20181 votes

I'm talking about literally EVERYONE in the game having a dash / blink / movespeed buff that is spammable. Try playing Ziggs Velkoz against Yasuo Lucian Ekko Camille Ezreal Fiora Irelia Kalista LeeSin and see which unfair advantage I'm talking about.

BLACK REALM GODJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kurt Hyzan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T15:51:11.626+0000)

I'm talking about literally EVERYONE in the game having a dash / blink / movespeed buff that is spammable. Try playing against and see which unfair advantage I'm talking about.

i play karthus. my Q is THE original mage skillshot. it takes 2.5 seconds to deal damage. cry to me more.

part of playing a skill shot champ is that you predict and bait out your opponents dash. no one said it'd be easy. that's why it's called a skill shot.

MalakJun 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=00030002000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T16:02:47.003+0000)

i play karthus. my Q is THE original mage skillshot. it takes 2.5 seconds to deal damage. cry to me more.

part of playing a skill shot champ is that you predict and bait out your opponents dash. no one said it'd be easy. that's why it's called a skill shot.

lmao bronze 4 Karthus..you have not played versus real players yet. Try against a challenger zed or anyone above gold/plat tbh

I mean, it's doable. If it wasn't I wouldn't be a Karthus one trick. But that's why Karthus isn't meta.

I don't want to be mean to you, but I want you to understand. Heck, even Riot said that there's too much MS in the game. Stack tier 2 boots with celerity, maybe phage effect, and throw a dash and flash in there and anyone can outplay you if you actually aim. Instead, you have to throw your Q in random spots praying to guess correctly.

BLACK REALM GODJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

lmao bronze 4 Karthus..you have not played versus real players yet. Try against a challenger zed or anyone above gold/plat tbh

you're barely gold yourself.

you like using facts from website statistics? okay here's one for you. bronze has the most AFKs, most surrenders at 20, most trolls, and most repeat offenders compared to any of the other ladder tiers.

new players are given silver for their placements and their initial starting point so long as they win a majority of their placements.

do you understand the consequence of those dynamics? yes? no? im going to assume no.

what that means is that because of the way ranked is set up that once you start approaching mid bronze you hit a wall. and that wall is 100% luck if you're playing solo queue as an actual solo player.

do you understand this? i somehow doubt since you decided to attack me directly and not the argument when you're barely gold yourself. so in other words you're not speaking from experience. but please continue to act as if you are.

if you can't land your Q as velkoz then play annie. it's that simple.

MalakJun 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=0003000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-19T19:16:45.645+0000)

you're barely gold yourself.

you like using facts from website statistics? okay here's one for you. bronze has the most AFKs, most surrenders at 20, most trolls, and most repeat offenders compared to any of the other ladder tiers.

new players are given silver for their placements and their initial starting point so long as they win a majority of their placements.

do you understand the consequence of those dynamics? yes? no? im going to assume no.

what that means is that because of the way ranked is set up that once you start approaching mid bronze you hit a wall. and that wall is 100% luck if you're playing solo queue as an actual solo player.

do you understand this? i somehow doubt since you decided to attack me directly and not the argument when you're barely gold yourself. so in other words you're not speaking from experience. but please continue to act as if you are.

if you can't land your Q as velkoz then play annie. it's that simple.

I don't play ranked and this isn't even my main. Even if I was just gold, the difference between a bronze 4 and a gold 4 player is enough to say you're not even playing the same game.

About the wall, there's probably a wall in silver since people start off in silver there is a large random factor which leads you to require more games to advance but you can still advance just fine. I doubt there's a wall in Bronze. You're just not playing the game correctly and that's that.

There's nothing wrong with being low rated - you're learning. The problem is that you're assuming the rest of the game works like it does in Bronze 4,and that your game knowledge encompasses the entire playerbase's experience. This is not the case.

Back to the main point, you haven't faced strong players that actually use movement mechanics correctly.

JamareeJun 18, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kurt Hyzan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XNEvgZyj,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T15:51:11.626+0000)

I'm talking about literally EVERYONE in the game having a dash / blink / movespeed buff that is spammable. Try playing against and see which unfair advantage I'm talking about.

I would agree, except the team he was playing against, only Lucian had a dash, everyone else was just MS increases.

KivolanJun 18, 20182 votes

Movement speed isn't the issue. Not in the slightest. You can and should be able to land your skillshots despite movement speed.

Vel's current problems extend from the amount of dashes in the game (there are so many champions that just completely counter him at this point), including champions that have two or even three gap closers when Vel only has one spell to try and get them off of him.

Unfortunately, a lot of rune options and itemization options that favor Vel'koz and his kit have also been nerfed to the ground or downright deleted, leaving him feeling pretty underwhelming, especially since he's already a "jack of all trades" who doesn't really have a time in the game when he's strong.

JamareeJun 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Movement speed isn't the issue. Not in the slightest. You can and should be able to land your skillshots despite movement speed.

Vel's current problems extend from the amount of dashes in the game (there are so many champions that just completely counter him at this point), including champions that have two or even three gap closers when Vel only has one spell to try and get them off of him.

Unfortunately, a lot of rune options and itemization options that favor Vel'koz and his kit have also been nerfed to the ground or downright deleted, leaving him feeling pretty underwhelming, especially since he's already a "jack of all trades" who doesn't really have a time in the game when he's strong.

The team he was playing against had literally one dash...one.

KivolanJun 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The team he was playing against had literally one dash...one.

Precisely, which says something about his level of skill with the champion. Vel is NOT in a good state right now, but it's not because of things the OP listed.

Despìca BìllJun 18, 20182 votes

Adding a mechanic that increases the speed of skillshot projectiles as the skills/champions level would be a potential fix. Some of them already do, but not a lot. I agree, mobility creep is a problem, and has been for quite a while. Lots of others think so, too. You made a great point, the bit about skillshots being mostly about opponents making mistakes, not you making good judgements. Sorry so many weaklings reacted emotionally to this....emotion is the typical response of people who can't use logic.

EDIT: Auto-downvoting all of my comments only serves to confirm what I said; weak people get hurt by opposing opinions.