@riot: juggernaut or tank, what are your plans for chogath?

Critmaster Garen·Jul 19, 2017·2 votes·468 views

because i do not feel comfortable calling him a jugg when he has that much disruptive, ranged aoe cc in his kit.

i get it. ive been having fun playng him too and have picked him up recently before his current set of buffs even hit the pbe. but so far despite his ult, his overall damage was still low enough to get away with calling him a tank. (unless built full ap)

but since his e changes, hes in a spot where he just feels like his identity is not clear anymore. which direction are you trying to develop him in?

on a sidenote the new doesnt belong into the group of juggs either. they just dont have range and dashes in their base kit like that. throw him in with "individual playstiles" please.

16 Comments

ErockandrollJul 19, 20172 votes

In my opinion, he's probably best classified as unique. (Sorry if Unique play styles make you feel uncomfortable)

I personally don't see his Giant damage ult as something completely denying his role as a tank. especially if it's the only real damage source on a Full Tank build. Yet, I don't see Chogath, filling the role of a Tank just from his CC alone. His primary CC is tied to a rather unreliable delayed AoE. and that's his only source of Hard CC.

On top of that, I wouldn't call him a Juggernaut Either. The majority of his damage is in his spells, which offer more of a Burst combo than flat DPS. If anything, I would consider his kit to be that of a Mage/Tank Hybrid. (Regardless of how he actually builds) While his Disruption is not as reliable than with most tanks, he makes up for it in kill potential.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

In my opinion, he's probably best classified as unique. (Sorry if Unique play styles make you feel uncomfortable)

I personally don't see his Giant damage ult as something completely denying his role as a tank. especially if it's the only real damage source on a Full Tank build. Yet, I don't see Chogath, filling the role of a Tank just from his CC alone. His primary CC is tied to a rather unreliable delayed AoE. and that's his only source of Hard CC.

On top of that, I wouldn't call him a Juggernaut Either. The majority of his damage is in his spells, which offer more of a Burst combo than flat DPS. If anything, I would consider his kit to be that of a Mage/Tank Hybrid. (Regardless of how he actually builds) While his Disruption is not as reliable than with most tanks, he makes up for it in kill potential.

riot officially classifies him as a juggernaut now. which i really dont like.

and im not talking about his ult. im talking about the changes to his e.

we already know that ultimates can sometimes break the rules of a champions classification. Olaf is officially considered a juggernaut depite his ult making him almost entirely immune to kiting for its duration.

so for cho having a large damage ult as a tank is unusual, but on its own not too crazy to not be able to group hm in with the other tanks.

im questioning the base damage he gains off his e turning him into a contineous carry threat as juggernaut with the cc of a tank at the same time.

and while his cc may be telegraphed, the same is true for other tanks. Sion

its not buffs to chogath im questioning, or his ult dealing a lot of true damage, but that the entire design direction theyre going in with him is unclear.

ProfDrDeathJul 19, 20171 votes

Where do they classify him as a Juggernaut? Got a source on that?

Because in the updated class/subclass list, he's under "Unique".

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Where do they classify him as a Juggernaut? Got a source on that?

Because in the updated class/subclass list, he's under "Unique".

its difficult to go back and find individual comments on a champion, but i did manage to find a comment about cho in meddlers dev corner.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/demk2EEi-quick-gameplay-thoughts-june-23

Cho'Gath

Looks like we should be able to ship those previously mentioned Cho changes in 7.14. What we're currently testing there is changing E to an active rather than a toggle, where it empowers Cho's next three auto attacks with the AOE spikes that deal % max enemy hp as magic damage and apply a decaying slow. CD's really short when leveled. Goals there include giving Cho a more juggernaut like damage profile (able to hurt beefier front lines better if they're all he can reach), putting a bit more interaction into use of the E and adding a bit of power.

im aware that meddler is reffering to his damage as "jugernaut-like". but its the same problem. cc heavy tank kit with juggernaut base damage.

The Leo CatJul 19, 20171 votes

I think they wanted him to be both.

I had a chogoth one game that would just stay behind and casually walk away to help us escape a losing fight without many casualties. And... the enemy team were too stupid to figure out how to kill him.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Leo Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XLtzLV5c,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-19T02:56:08.325+0000)

I think they wanted him to be both.

this feels like a terrible idea.

juggs are supposed to be tanky melee carries who lack in mobility and range to make up for it. theyre also equipped with low utility and should generally still somewhat rely on tanks and supports to set them up to carry.

ive had games where i managed to initiate jungle teamfights on chogath by getting 5 man knockups over walls followed by silences. these ranged 5 man initiates is something a tank should be able to do.

putting a tank/juggernaut into the game will lead to either cho getting nerfed in a way that hes not excelling in either role, or create some sort of ridiculous power creep that will be dealt with by power creeping juggs counters which in turn will lead to the whole class suffering.

Big LincolnJul 19, 20171 votes

i wish he'd returned to his old anti-assassin niche that he used to have before the w changes. that'd be a really easy way to give him a niche

rn im not sure what he's supposed to be beyond a super-durable late game monster. only issue he is that he can actually just go full tank and function as one. i still maintain that he should be pushed back to building some damage items.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XLtzLV5c,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-19T03:04:02.010+0000)

i wish he'd returned to his old anti-assassin niche that he used to have before the w changes. that'd be a really easy way to give him a niche

rn im not sure what he's supposed to be beyond a super-durable late game monster. only issue he is that he can actually just go full tank and function as one. i still maintain that he should be pushed back to building some damage items.

before the most recent changes to his e, chogath did overall make a pretty decent tank.

in fact, i mostly played him in support. there is a large advantage to having a second smite near the dragon pit on bot lane. his cc and disruption are decent enough to support a carry.

difficult to play at times due to his telegraphed abilities, but items like item 3190 and item 3116 still gave him reliable ways to disrupt and peel.

well, he can still do that but now hes also a jugg apparantly and can carry entire fights by hitting spikes on opponents. which i have issues with.

either theyre saying hes a jugg and give him a rework to his q that also removes the knockup.

or they say hes supposed to be a tank and remove a chunk of his carry potential while looking into making his w more reliable as a cc/disruption tool.

Big LincolnJul 19, 20171 votes

i'd like his W reworked anyway because it could be way more satisfying but i'd probably make it super op for giggles

CochoJul 19, 20171 votes

idk he anti-assassin'd my Katarina pretty well with 2000 true damage lol

Big LincolnJul 19, 20171 votes

he'd do it even better before when his silence was like 2.5 seconds. actually it might've been 3? i can't remember

Those were better days

MordepoolJul 19, 20171 votes

Quiet!!!!!!

woodvsmurphJul 19, 20171 votes

With cho, I believe they will do their damn best to keep both his full ap and bruiser/tank playstyle open to cater to tradition and cho mains and fans. Is there a problem he doesn't fit one category? i mean you can go full lethality assassin garen in the right matchup, go bruiser build with black cleaver and maybe 1 other damage item, or go full tank. Is there anything wrong with cho having such options too? We asked for lower mana cost on his q because it was way too high compared to his mana regen early which prevented him from trading effectively with just doran starting item. They gave us that finally. People asked for more reliability with his kit - perhaps a slow to help make landing his full combo more feasible. They added a slow to his e. Seems like they are at least TRYING to meet what cho needs to be a viable pick again. I don't know if the new kit is good/bad/ok/busted or whatever; haven't had the chance to play it yet. I'd say he CAN go full tank and have respectable waveclear and base damage via %damage on his e and good q,w,r base (and hp scaling) damage - much like a zac. He can go bruiser in more favorable matchups - similar to garen building more than cleaver for damage but not going full lethality - and deal more damage with q, w, and e while still being fairly tanky. Or he can go full ap and be squishy despite having tons of hp; just as garen can do that with lethality stacking. This is based on what I know of cho before this patch and from vids by streamers using him with the updates.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

With cho, I believe they will do their damn best to keep both his full ap and bruiser/tank playstyle open to cater to tradition and cho mains and fans. Is there a problem he doesn't fit one category? i mean you can go full lethality assassin garen in the right matchup, go bruiser build with black cleaver and maybe 1 other damage item, or go full tank. Is there anything wrong with cho having such options too?

the difference is, garen cant be all these things at the same time. cho can be a cc loaded tank and a melee carry at the same time with the new changes to his kit.

if you build garen lethality, hes going to deal obscene damage but hes going to be squishy, which doesnt make this build even viable most of the time. if you build him extemely beefy hes going to deal less damage. making him a tank at all doesnt work because he lacks the utility to be one.

the main difference between juggernauts and tanks is base damage vs. cc and utility. garen for example has absolutely 0 utility (except for a shorter single target, melee range silence), but decently high base damage.

right now cho has both.

chogath being a tank and a juggernaut at the same time is problematic imo because he can be all this in the same game. he doesnt chose to itemize into one or the other. not that thats usually even possible. usually you either have the kit of a tank, or the kit of a jugg.

in the end, this will probably lead to cho getting nerfed to the point of irrelevance, which isnt desirable either.

woodvsmurphJul 19, 20171 votes

Cho is very punishable early and lacks the durability of other tanks and bruisers until he gets ITEMS. With the new e, maybe it's different, but before that you can definitely dodge his q and make him waste w on just you or just minions. His sustain comes from killing minions - which requires him to use abilities to get quick healing or get it slowly and save abilities to fight YOU. It also means he will likely shove the lane similar to rumble - and be very open for pre-6 ganks for which he has no escape besides an unreliable q to try to escape via slowing his pursuers. Maybe the new e solves all this, but I doubt it. He should still be quite punishable early/mid game 1v1. And while his base q and w damage are good, they aren't extraordinary compared to other tanks unless he builds damage items - making him less tanky. His new e is not really any different than shen q from what I know of it - other than being aoe and with a slow. Both have %hp damage and 3 hits. Cho has more bruiser level damage from his abilities early, but they fall off to tank level damage mid/late game unless he builds damage items. And in return for the extra damage compared to other tanks early game, he sacrifices some tankiness/durability compared to them.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Cho is very punishable early and lacks the durability of other tanks and bruisers until he gets ITEMS. With the new e, maybe it's different, but before that you can definitely dodge his q and make him waste w on just you or just minions. His sustain comes from killing minions - which requires him to use abilities to get quick healing or get it slowly and save abilities to fight YOU. It also means he will likely shove the lane similar to rumble - and be very open for pre-6 ganks for which he has no escape besides an unreliable q to try to escape via slowing his pursuers. Maybe the new e solves all this, but I doubt it. He should still be quite punishable early/mid game 1v1. And while his base q and w damage are good, they aren't extraordinary compared to other tanks unless he builds damage items - making him less tanky. His new e is not really any different than shen q from what I know of it - other than being aoe and with a slow. Both have %hp damage and 3 hits. Cho has more bruiser level damage from his abilities early, but they fall off to tank level damage mid/late game unless he builds damage items. And in return for the extra damage compared to other tanks early game, he sacrifices some tankiness/durability compared to them.

well, all this is obviously not the case for chos new kit anymore. otherwise his winrate wouldnt have spiked to 58%.

im not critisizing his old kit. his old kit was fine and needed some slight buffs/tweaks.

but the addition of the slow and % hp damage on his e gave him a dual identity that i question if it should even exist. the slow on its own would have been perfectly enough.

by the way, the cooldown on chos new e scales down to 3 seconds with some cdr. which means you can have it active nonstop unless youre running some funky attack speed build. so its not just 3 hits. its 3 hits, and another 3 and another 3 without interruption after a certain point.

each of them dealing upwards of 7% (at 6 feast stacks) max health magic damage potentially to multiple opponents.