Rageblade and Devourer/Sated

Stacona·Mar 5, 2016·1 votes·631 views

This is two different entities, but decided to throw them into one post. I will entirely relaying balance propositions more than anything.

Guinsoo's Rageblade: I say the stacked passive damage should scale per level, this will make it less overwhelming power when rushed and makes it not full off as hard into the late game.

Devourer: Change the damage from flat to % max health, this way it will fall under late game power without being dominant early. (No more AFK farming stacking mechanic) All this will lead for the item to open up more junglers at all elo ranges without being dominant in lower skill brackets and casual play.

Sated: REMOVED! This item is too hard to balance and AFK farming is not a good thing especially as a jungle role, but balance purposes for game health main reason to remove it more than anything else.

19 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerMar 5, 20161 votes

You do realize that Devourer as a whole would be harder to balance without stated? The reason it has a cap is so that their isn't infinite snowballing, as well as a possibility for a Devourer champion who is behind to catch up

StaconaMar 5, 20161 votes

sated isn't balance-able, and blade isn't op so having another % damage item wont be either, easy to balance-- % damages are naturally weak early and scale well

pretty sure i clearly stated that the farming aspect would be removed, but stay bronze

ModWulf HelhammerMar 5, 20161 votes

(Insults, always a great way to strengthen your point)

And why should the farming aspect be removed? If a champion AFK farms for the time to get stated, then it's your fault that you couldn't do anything in that time. If they are ganking like a regular jungler, then that means it takes longer for them to farm up.

And I said nothing about percent health damage, but honestly, the individual damage from the item isn't the problem. And besides that, stated is supposed to be a mid game spike item, not necessarily a late game one.

And as a final point to address your insult, if I'm bronze, why do I not have a problem with stated? Because I find the item itself perfectly fine, and the only reason the particular junglers who use it are over powered and unfun to play against is because of Rageblade, which allows all of the devourer junglers to get those two items, and then tank with the new juggernaut items. Before all those items, if a stated jungler wanted to do damage, they had to build it. If they only went a Bork for damage with stated, they fell off hard, and were quite easy to deal with,

DeloricVIMar 5, 20161 votes

AFK farming is a very unhealthy playstyle for the game. It removes you from your game, and leaves your team to fend for themselves in a way that doesn't actually put the team as a whole at that much of a disadvantage. Sure, you disappear for a while, but the spike is really significant. It's the same problem they had with feral flare. People can disappear, and effectively avoid playing the game, then emerge from the jungle and start wrecking things. Champions, objectives, doesn't matter, if you got the stacks, you're good. It's very one-sided, unless you consider counter jungling, but no one really does that anymore.

It's boring, mostly. The jungler just farms by himself, which is boring. The lanes don't see any ganks from their devourer jungler(s), which is boring, and then they just pop out and smash you over the head in the mid game with sated devourer, which feels unfair. Yeah, I know it's hyperbole; they will gank, but most of the time it's after they already have a bunch of stacks anyway. Half the time, they're just going to fail, then farm up to sated and still wreak some pretty nasty havoc on your towers and allies. If you have a champion that works with rageblade too, they're just going to start shredding people, towers, baron, etc.

Do I think that stacking items can't work? No, and I want to make that clear. What I am saying is that sated encourages an unhealthy playstyle in its current state. This may not be such a bad thing if it only seemed like an option instead of the "AFK farm from the safety of your jungle for 15 minutes then win game" button. Who takes warrior anymore? Most of the time, its either more worth it to just play a champion that uses Devourer, or just get Devourer. Honestly, it's Feral Flare with barely any of the issues actually fixed. Now, I would change my attitude if there was a good trade off between devourer and another option, but no. If you play a jungler that does anything with autos, which is a lot of them like Yi, Xin, Warwick, etc, devourer is safer for how much power you get out of the item.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 5, 20161 votes

Off the top of my head, junglers that use warrior either exclusively or work much better with it then devourer: Lee Sin, Graves, Wukong, Vi, Jarven, Kindred, Rengar, damage reksai.

Devourer was made for champions such as Yi, Xin and Warwick, ones that benefit most from attack speed, rather then raw AD.

And you can't make a point that devourer is bad because people don't counter jungle -- if you don't do the number one counter to devourer junglers, there is nothing to complain about. I have been at the end of counter jungling when playing a devourer champ, and it is absolute hell. You practically can't do anything, as you are so starved for gold.

DeloricVIMar 5, 20161 votes

Yeah, but not every champion can contest these resources, and it's pretty dangerous to counter jungle. You're going deep into enemy territory, and if you get caught by the enemy jungler you could have 1-3 people collapsing in on you to contest those objectives. Yeah, vision will help you with this but a devourer jungler worth his salt will be able to capitalize on how risky it would be to take a champion not suited for counter jungling (especially in the event that you, being the non-devourer jungle picked before the devourer jungle) behind enemy lines. They're going to smite their wolves and raptors, clear their jungle of wards, and make sure that their lanes come in and make your life a living hell if you try to take their camps. Call this counter play if you want, but I think that the risk involved in counter-jungling is way higher than the risk involved with taking devourer. Yeah, you take the risk that they'll steal your camps, but then again who cares, because 1) not many people do that anymore, 2) it takes certain kinds of champions to be able to pull it off well, and 3) counter-jungling actually takes some skill. You have a pretty good chance of getting a free ride when you pick up devourer on a devourer champion, especially in lower elo, which describes most of the community.

TBH, I haven't seen any of those junglers you mentioned that scale better with Warrior, unless they're being built with devourer. It could be due to devourer's popularity, but a lot of people just pick these champions and build devourer on them anyway. The only one I haven't seen it on is Rek'sai. Vi builds warrior a little more often, but that's because she mainly uses it as an early game power boost, but then transitions it over to Juggernaut in the late game, which mostly goes for Lee Sin too because of how much he falls off and people awkwardly transition him to an off-tank if they don't win in the mid game by beating the enemy in the head with a sack of gold.

StaconaMar 5, 20161 votes

yea, having devour just as % max health magic damage onhit would solve that and not have it broken and be viable all at the same time

ModWulf HelhammerMar 6, 20161 votes

How exactly? You haven't offered any reasoning why changing it to % max health damage will make it balanced.

Removing the stated aspect of devourer will do one thing: completely remove it as an option for junglers to buy. Any champion that goes devourer can just as easily go warrior or cinderhulk, but devourer with the AS and passive from sated scales won their kit better then those others ever could. You take that away, no builds it at all.

StaconaMar 6, 20161 votes

Yes i did, it cause % damage naturally is weak early and stronger later. And removing the farming and sated aspect will make more reason to buy the item, and make it less dominate in low elos. The attack speed is not being removed, why the fk will it be removed, its just having % max health on-hit magic damage instead of a flat number so it is weaker early and scales well into the game since Riot wants it to be a late game item, plus a % damage even capped will make it better in the jungle for farming without forcing it as a farming item.

Kindred can have two options of devour or warrior with a more normalized devour, Shyvana jungle can be realistic in high elo and competitive play since she will not be forced into hard farming and open more strategic options and be less telegraphed to what a devour jungle can do or will do.

Your thinking is straight up a bronze mindset

ModWulf HelhammerMar 6, 20161 votes

Because if all the item gives is attack speed and a simple "here's some extra damage" passive, no devourer jungler is going to get it. Why would they, when they can just as easily pick it up worth something like a BoRK that also had a great active as well?

Devourer is a good item because of stated. Without it, there is no reason to buy it. And while yes, it does have a late game impact, the item (and none of the jungle enchants) are designed to be "late game powerspike" items, in the vein of something with multiplicative damage scaling.

Devourer spikes in mid game, and in a perfect world, by late game, your team has the tools necessary to deal with it.

Does this mean as it stands now that devourer is completely balanced? Not really, no. But this is not an inherent problem with devourer. As I said previously in this thread, at the end of last season, no one had a problem with devourer (and anyone that did was laughed out of the room because they had no ground on which to make a complaint). Then the juggernauts came, giving defensive items often with good damage on then. Then the preseason, where games became a bit more snowball-y, and our good friend Rageblade came along with its new update. These things combined created an atmosphere that allows devourer junglers to actually go the "only 2 damage items" route, as the juggernaut items provide tankiness and some damage, with rageblade and devourer providing all the rest.

So does this mean that devourer needs to be nerfed? In my opinion, no, as if they do that, it locks out the old actuall glass cannon DPS builds that champions like Yi and Xin used to have. And as someone who actually liked to play the normal style of Yi (in the few times I liked to play jungle), I don't want play a game where the only viable option to play a champion I once enjoyed is to take a build that is, frankly, quite broken and unfun to play against.

StaconaMar 7, 20161 votes

With that logic no one buys Warrior cause it gives attack damage with some CDR

Everyone had a problem with devour, the item was always problematic, even before it was devour

EcchiOtakuTMMar 5, 20161 votes

They just need to raise rageblade price to 3.1k, add recurve bow to the recipe, Move the base stats on rageblade to the passive and remove melee attack double stacking.

There aren't any more problems than that

StaconaMar 5, 20161 votes

then it gets more stats cause it will have to have attack speed too - it will be even stronger that solves nothing

Billy VoHagenMar 5, 20161 votes

It already gives attack speed in stacks. They can shift power from that into the base.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 5, 20161 votes

And no I want the stats in base completely moved to the passive. To truly make it useless and turn into it's full power.

It's a RAGE blade no one starts off partially in rage. That's the logic behind why I want all the stats in the passive and none if you aren't doing anything.

EcchiOtakuTMMar 5, 20161 votes

You do know they can't raise price because it's item build path is terrible right? it already has attack speed this would allow the item to have a better build path and raise it's price.

DeloricVIMar 5, 20161 votes

I personally think that these two items have very different issues to tackle.

Devourer encourages a very unhealthy playstyle; it's effectively all reward and no risk. Yeah, if you disappear and don't gank, that's bad. But if, in the long run, this isn't really a setback due to sated devourer, you can effectively remove yourself from the game for the first 15 minutes, and emerge a god among champions. It's the same problem they had with feral flare. It's almost exactly the same problem.

Rageblade is a different can of worms. It scales really weird across different champions. Some champions can't do much with it, but others totally wreck face. It's like malady, that breaks a few select champions, but others are mostly fine. I wasn't around for Malady, but I'm pretty sure it flat out broke Teemo, among other champions. I mean, you put Rageblade on Jax, Xin, or Kayle, you have a total monstrosity, but on other champions it's mostly worthless... if not just pretty sub-par. I'm not saying every item should be good on every champion, but the disparity shouldn't be this big. The power that Jax and Xin get from rageblade is huge, and it allows them to shred towers. Personally, I think the issue is more with how the champions interact with the item, and not the item itself. It's been a staple on Kayle, and it wasn't that bad before.

StaconaMar 5, 20161 votes

I didn't say they were related, i just wanted to throw it into one post

Malady is in the game, the scaling on nashor's and shred on wits end, but its in a better aspect cause champions that deal all magic damage on their kits like warwick and shyvana love wits end for its shred and mr, and of course nashor's gives real amounts of AP and CDR for more auto focus mages like orianna, diana, TF etc and not sacrifice AP for an AA buffer

the problem is hybrid stats they should have made it with a similar stacking passive but just AD and AS with on-hit damage-- i only suggested a quick fix to the current problem and not a long term fix- long term it should be turned into an AA stacking item for marksmen and some melee basic attackers can get it.. gunblade is in a good spot now because they made it into an ability power item with some AD so its less hybrid making it stronger on more champions and less gimmicky (gunblade teemo really strong with the heal from all damage and active; can follow up with either marksmen items like hurricane and shiv/cannon or ap items like nashors liandrys)

Devourer I still think the solution is remove the farming aspect completely so it becomes a normal item, and for it is weaker early and stronger later it receives % max health magic damage--- Sated i think is too hard to balance, their are better ways to incorporate an on-hit buffing item and this isnt how you do it

ModWulf HelhammerMar 7, 20161 votes

(Separate comment because the chain only goes so far)

{quoted}

With that logic no one buys Warrior cause it gives attack damage with some CDR

Everyone had a problem with devour, the item was always problematic, even before it was devour

The reason why warrior is just a stat stick is because all the champions that work best with it need is stats. They don't need an extra clearing passive, "increased damage on such and such attack", or anything in the vein of the unique passives on the other items.

Actually, before stated, the only problem people had with devourer was that it would stack infinetly, making it nearly impossible for a devourer jungler who fell behind to catch up to their counterpart. When stated came out, the only people who had problems with that were lower elo players who didn't understand how to play against it, as once you did understand, it became incredibly simple for you to make the enemy jungler practically non-existent because they couldn't do anything.

The only reason now why people have a bigger problem with devour is, as I've stated several times now, is that with the current itemization, it is possible to have enough damage while being hard to kill, something that before preseason (combined with the juggernaut items) was not possible. Sure, champions like Shyvana and Udyr might have gone sated, Bork, and then tank, but they didn't have enough damage to be a threat to anyone but a glass cannon with no defensive stats to speak off. Champions like Yi and Xin actually had to pay for offensive stats to do damage, allowing them to be easily focused and bursted down, because they were themselves glass cannons.

-_-

Kindred can have two options of devour or warrior with a more normalized devour, Shyvana jungle can be realistic in high elo and competitive play since she will not be forced into hard farming and open more strategic options and be less telegraphed to what a devour jungle can do or will do.

Your thinking is straight up a bronze mindset

Kindred has always scaled better with warrior, since her release, as it allows her to get her marks faster through stronger ganking pressure. In higher elos, Shyvana usually never went devourer -- she went cinderhulk, and acted as a diving front liner for her team.

And again, the insults. Do you see me being anything but respectful towards you in my comments (even when I am usually quite more biting, particularly when I strongly disagree with something that is blatantly false)?