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RIP Zoe.

Azadethe··7 votes·1,708 views

Meddler's update to Zoe nerfs:

**P ratio to 0.325 was 0.25 Q damage 45-105+0.2 was 45-165+0.4 W AP ratio to 0.6 was 0.4 W MS 30-70% was 10-70% +34 base HP and +2 base AD ** That's in addition to:

Paddle Star (Q) Paddle Star no longer applies More Sparkles' damage to enemies past the first hit.

Spell Thief (W) **Minions can no longer drop Teleport. Sleepy Trouble Bubble (E) [Removed Effect] No longer notes "When an enemy champion falls asleep, Sleepy Trouble Bubble's cooldown is reduced by 10/15/20/25/30%." "Removing Drowsy now prevents the affected target from asleep." "This includes effects such as Cleanse, Mikeal's Crucible, or Quicksilver Sash, as well as champion CC removals such as Alistar ult. ** In other words, in addition to extreme nerfs to Zoe's E (where she no longer has an option for a low cooldown spam)

They're nerfing her Q to a point where it can no longer even take 1/5 your health in exchange for more auto attack scaling, buffing W (which is primarily an auto attack range skill).

She's basically becoming a mixture of Leblanc Ahri Lux 's auto attack features and passives with a slightly less deadly Lux ult/ahri Q.

My guess is.... she will be clear down to 35% win, and everyone and their mother already knows how to counter her in the new form because the champs she's mirroring are already common picks, and the same tactics will work.

If she misses E, she's done. If tries to use R to kill, she's done. If she tries to Q, she's likely to get some HP off you still, but she's very likely done, as long as you don't feed her summoner's spells.

They're basically making it so people prioritize Q and W over E. E will be left level 1 now, while W will be leveled for that sweet move speed bonus and damage.

Hell. I might as well build her tank, and just run around grabbing summoners now, and let Transcendence give me AP to close quarters melee you to death.

She's no longer an Artllery champ. She's just like every other mage.

I'm glad I didn't buy Hacker skin. I knew the nerfs were coming, and I'm sure some will be adjusted. But she's going to be perpetually tweaked to overkill like this, so what's the point of playing her? I'll just completely 1v1 her with Nami some more, especially now that she can't Bubble me twice in one fight. I can bubble HER twice though......

24 Comments

Dracocrash5 votes

Good.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

Honestly, I kinda see the point in that. Since release, I always thought that she is going to be a case like Azir and Kalista. Mediocre (or worse) in the hands of an average player, absolutely dominating and terrifying if truly mastered.

I think these changes are for the better.

Azadethe2 votes

She's only terrifying NOW in the hands of a master. She has no game control because her skills are so small and her close range survival so limited. She hasn't passed 50% win rate since she came out.

She's never even dominating in a game with a "master;" She's mediocre.

Zoe doesn't pull 20+ kills games eve if you're good.

Akali Anivia Evelynn Azir Cassiopeia Corki Diana Ekko Draven Fizz Katarina Jax Irelia Jinx Jhin Kayn Leblanc Khazix Riven TwistedFate Twitch Velkoz Xerath Zed Yasuo Tristana do.

And they do so regularly in the hands of even mediocre players.

Zoe... rarely gets over 13 kills even if she does good. She has one of the worse KDAs in the game.

Chembaron Yamada3 votes

All of this is true... for the average player. Look at the statistics.

Personally, I use lolalytics (which data site do you use?), and while Zoe averages a 48,91% winrate there, the leaderboards (So, people who truly mastered her) tells a different story.

The best players of Zoe have 58,98% winrate. That difference between the average Zoe and the OTPs is huge. The other champions you mentioned here don't reach that number. Zed? 54%. Azir? 56%.

Katarina comes at least close with 57,61%, but she averages at 51,52%. The difference between average players and OTPs is way smaller.

This is the same case like with Azir and Kalista back then. Usually, they were not that strong on average. But if someone invested the time into them and truly learnt every little detail and mastered their mechanics, they were dominating.

Zoe has alot of tricks to learn, as well as requiring quick decision-making by utilising her W perfectly in different situations. It is no wonder that most players are doing poorly on her.

But you shouldn't underestimate the potential lying in that champ.

Azadethe3 votes

Really? Because I'm looking at lolanalytics right now, and their Challenger tier legend doesn't even put Zoe in the cut:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/tierlist/

You have to get clear down to Plat for Zoe to even rank.

There's also plenty of champs that have the win spread you are referring to:

Taliyah (60.2%) Tristana (57.5%) Xayah (59.1%) Skarner (58%) Rumble Shaco (58.2%) Kalista (58%) Janna (58.5%) Fizz (58.3%) Elise (58.4%) Cassiopeia (58.6%) Camille (58.9%)

She may be on the high end among what they're considering 1 trick players who main one champ, but there, even Taliyah's beating her. Literally all champs are holding some strong deviation, and that's normal. Most are 54-57%. That's normal. 59% isn't outside any mean, and that doesn't express what she is to the rest of the community that aren't 1 trick elites. (btw, lolanalytics cuts people who play diverse champ rosters from their stats....... so this isn't actually accurate because it doesn't pertain to people who keep Zoe in a 3 champ roster)

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

One of my main points here is the difference between average and main. That difference is above 10% for Zoe. Taliyah doesn't reach that either.

It shows you that as long as Zoe keeps working the same way mechanically, they are not able to make her viable for the average player, without making her completely busted on mains. Just like Azir and Kalista.

Mechanical changes like spellshields preventing her sleep, moving her playstyle more to her AA instead of Q, making her max W instead of E, not giving her CDR for hitting E.

These mechanical changes are supposed to try to achieve that spot. A place in which she can be made viable for the casual player, but not breaking her in the hand of mains.

And that is a good thing to aim for in my opinion.

Hi lm Zoe1 votes

{quoted}

She's only terrifying NOW in the hands of a master. She has no game control because her skills are so small and her close range survival so limited. She hasn't passed 50% win rate since she came out.

She's never even dominating in a game with a "master;" She's mediocre.

Zoe doesn't pull 20+ kills games eve if you're good.

Akali Anivia Evelynn Azir Cassiopeia Corki Diana Ekko Draven Fizz Katarina Jax Irelia Jinx Jhin Kayn Leblanc Khazix Riven TwistedFate Twitch Velkoz Xerath Zed Yasuo Tristana do.

And they do so regularly in the hands of even mediocre players.

Zoe... rarely gets over 13 kills even if she does good. She has one of the worse KDAs in the game.

Azadethe I could do 20 kills a game before the nerfs, my average score was 20/8/12 But now I cant do 10, average score 6/4/8

NineTailedMystic4 votes

A) Good. Completely obnoxious champion design that should have never been greenlit

B) In the same tweet, Meddler said they'd rather overnerf and fix later.

Paintchip3 votes

Good riddance! I never really cared about banning and wouldn’t even bother half the time. Then they released this champ. Now I ban her every single match. I don’t care who highlights what, this champ is just banned, period end of story.

Azadethe2 votes

I can't even look you up.

But I can guess by your comment that you never even really bothered to learn her before you began banning. She's actually garbage NOW. She's never even crossed a 50% win rate. Her R kills her. A E miss kills her..... she just is countered by about 80% of the roster. If she's in a 2v1, she's going to usually die. period.

I have been killed by a Zoe a grand total of 4 times since the champ came out, and I never ban her.

DoktorKaiser2 votes

Your experience doesn't equal the experience of others, I have been killed hundreds of times, not killed but rather 1 shot from fog of war. This champion is cancer, terrible design, terrible lore, terrible visuals and annoying voiceover. I really dont know who approved of her release. Not to mention that she terrorizes LCS .

Ahristocats2 votes

my guess is that if they didn't do this:

Paddle Star (Q) Paddle Star no longer applies More Sparkles' damage to enemies past the first hit.

Spell Thief (W) Minions can no longer drop Teleport. Sleepy Trouble Bubble (E) [Removed Effect] No longer notes "When an enemy champion falls asleep, Sleepy Trouble Bubble's cooldown is reduced by 10/15/20/25/30%." "Removing Drowsy now prevents the affected target from asleep." "This includes effects such as Cleanse, Mikeal's Crucible, or Quicksilver Sash, as well as champion CC removals such as Alistar ult.

she would have been balanced she just needed to lose damage from Q and get more damage on passive/W

W not dropping tp was requiered tho, you were so fucked if she had tp from minions at lvl 3/4, and it made you feel bad because it was only a tiny chance to get it, so if you were lucky you would win laning phase, if you were not you would lose

i still think Zoe's W is so fcking gimicked that it should be replaced with something else

Azadethe2 votes

I think what she "needed" is up to different interpretations based on who was playing her, who doesn't play her but plays against her, etc.

Her Q is really hard to line up max damage hits. Her strongest ability has ALWAYS been her auto attacks. A Lich bane on an E'd target = almost instant death. That's how most Zoes get kills. The E > Q > R > Q is just a neat trick that works maybe..... 10% of the time. When i played her, I'd literally E someone through a wall, R through the wall, and follow up with an Auto attack. That's how I got my kills. I found that most Q's just came up short because of the delay on E's active.

I know she's a pain to lane with. I've had a Diamond Smurf lane me on Morg. I'm generally a good morg, but this Zoe.... just zoned the minions so hard that leveling just W wasn't enough to outclear her and get picks. Once she got 6, she didn't even do the normal combo. She R'd over the minion waves, and E'd me at point blank on the other side before I could even cast E. Then she had a free sleep, and could walk back and auto me before I woke up. That's how real Zoe's play. And Morg generally counters her!

Now..... spell shield will prevent the sleep, so that combo is going to struggle.

And I'm not kidding. I've literally solo'd Zoe on Nami, who has the lowest HP base and growth in the game. I didn't dodge everything every fight. I literally took her E's head on, and took Q's, and autos. She just couldn't kill me even though she was getting the long shots. Why?

Because I rushed item 3174 item 3111 item 3065 , which results in a near 60% drop in her damage, I heal out of it, and then just continue the march of fighting her. I think what people generally lack vs Zoe isn't the ability to survive; it's the ability to itemize correctly.

How many mid laners do you know that actually build a first item with Mag resist on it? When's the last time their first item was a item 3102 ? or who rushes item 3001 ?

No one. They rush MANA and AP. Zoe's kit excels at killing offensive builds! It sucks hard vs resist builds.

That's why occasionally you see a Zed with item 3155 outlane Zoe. Resist nukes her damage hard until real late game.

Instead, now her 1 cc is completely negateable, and her damage per hit so low that she's not even a threat to offensive builds.

Honestly..... her Passive boost scares me. I've pushed whole mid lanes with her using it. It's useful even early game when AP is low, and can chip away at turrets almost as fast as Demolish. Once she has a Lich bane, she can already take a turret in about 16 seconds. Now it's going to be 13-14 seconds.

The W move speed buff also scares me. The active damage is too infrequent for me to care about, but a 30% move speed buff at tier 1 means there's even less utility to upright level it, and 30% is going to lead to early game escapes stronger than anyone else in the game who builds damage skills first. It's basically a short term Ghost as soon as she uses a summoner's now, on a champ that only dies because she has relatively no early game mobility. That's scary. She's not going to be able to kill, but she won't die either.

Teridax682 votes

{quoted}

She's basically becoming a mixture of Leblanc Ahri Lux 's auto attack features and passives with a slightly less deadly Lux ult/ahri Q.

{quoted}

She's no longer an Artllery champ. She's just like every other mage.

Not to burst your bubble (/pun), but all artillery champions in the game have autoattacks incorporated into their power, if you look at Lux, Xerath, Ziggs, even Vel'Koz, whose autoattacks extend the duration of his marks. Nerfing her burst damage outright therefore does not take away from that. I don't doubt that she'll likely turn out very weak after this, but at least it could help move towards a potentially healthier direction for her, one that doesn't involve her one-shotting people from out of the blue.

Azadethe2 votes

  1. Xerath's basic doesn't deal damage. 2) When have you ever seen a Xerath actually USE the champ to restore mana feature in competitive play? You haven't. He stands back and nukes.

  2. Just because the basic attack mechanism is there doesn't mean it's actually an important part of their kit. Zigg's passive is RARELY why he gains a kill. He can just spam Q and R and that's the game. Vel rarely gains kills because of auto attacks. It's R and the low cooldown machine gun skills he has. Lux does use hers, which is why i mentioned it. Her kit can't kill without it.

  3. The point of new champs is to create new play styles to solve problems vs specific champ sets. It's not to mimic another set. I mean, with the direction they are taking, you can literally view Zoe as almost mirroring Ahri; W does the same thing, Q does about the same thing (except Ahri's is a hell of a lot more accessible), E's offer a single target cc that are now governed by the same cc rules (Zoe's is "potentially" better but in reality Ahri's again is more functional, because her kit allows her to close gaps and ensure the hit, where Zoe's often misses), and R's are both movement skills (except again..... Zoe's is inferior, because she will always return to the original spot, where Ahri can use it to chase or escape and space it out and do it 3 times)

The only differences between Ahri and Zoe NOW: The shuffling of where the damage is (Zoe R has none, but Ahri's Q does less), Zoe's is less accessible, and the fact Ahri has a heal, and Zoe doesn't.

The E cooldown reduction on hits was one of the things that prevented them from being clones. The Q being a killer was one of the things that prevented them from being clones.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

  1. Xerath's basic doesn't deal damage. 2) When have you ever seen a Xerath actually USE the champ to restore mana feature in competitive play? You haven't. He stands back and nukes.

Please point to the part in my post where I ever specified that artillery champions always had on-hit damage. Also, the mana restore is useful in the laning phase at the very least at all levels of play, and even if it weren't, it is still autoattack-based power baked into his kit.

{quoted}

  1. Just because the basic attack mechanism is there doesn't mean it's actually an important part of their kit. Zigg's passive is RARELY why he gains a kill. He can just spam Q and R and that's the game.

This is completely untrue, and I recommend you try Ziggs out to see how his innate helps with last-hitting, poking, pushing, etc. It may not be the most iconic part of his kit, but it is still part of his power budget.

{quoted}

Vel rarely gains kills because of auto attacks. It's R and the low cooldown machine gun skills he has.

I never said it was a huge component to his power, just that he has a part of his kit that encourages him to autoattack. It does also help him out if he decides to trade or go in for the kill, while the rest of his skills are still recharging.

{quoted}

  1. The point of new champs is to create new play styles to solve problems vs specific champ sets. It's not to mimic another set.

Sure, and at no point did I say otherwise, but your core criticism in your OP here was all about how Zoe would no longer be an artillery mage because she'd no longer be able to do what you thought all artillery mages do. You yourself have therefore expressed a desire for Zoe to mimic other champions when it suits your own preferences.

{quoted}

I mean, with the direction they are taking, you can literally view Zoe as almost mirroring Ahri; W does the same thing, Q does about the same thing (except Ahri's is a hell of a lot more accessible), E's offer a single target cc that are now governed by the same cc rules (Zoe's is "potentially" better but in reality Ahri's again is more functional, because her kit allows her to close gaps and ensure the hit, where Zoe's often misses), and R's are both movement skills (except again..... Zoe's is inferior, because she will always return to the original spot, where Ahri can use it to chase or escape and space it out and do it 3 times)

Yes, Zoe is exactly like Ahri. No meaningful difference to be found there. Lemme get right back to you, so that I can play Ahri and stun people from thousands of units away, before popping Redemption onto bot lane at the five minute mark.

But in all seriousness, Zoe and Ahri do not have any similarities in how they play or contribute, nor will they have those following Zoe's nerfs. If you doubt me, I recommend you try the two out on the PBE, or on Live once the patch hits. Saying these changes will make Zoe weak I can agree with just fine, but saying this'll turn Zoe into a weaker Ahri I feel is a lot less credible, particularly to anyone with a modicum of experience with either champion.

Azadethe2 votes

The problem is you're equivocating champs who rarely and if only situationally use the basic attack aspects of their kits vs champs who ALWAYS use them.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the spam artillery mages have basic attack mods in their kit. It does not mean it has anywhere NEAR the utility of the mages I mentioned.

P.S. I've played all 139 champs, and I've played mages religiously since season 4. Don't tell me to "try" a champ and see how much you use it. The only time Ziggs ever uses his auto for the purpose of champ fights is when he is in dire straights, about to die, and he needs that extra 50-100 damage to kill an opponent whose closed the gap. It's rare, and usually doesn't work.

I'm a higher rank than you by far.

Ahri is exactly like Zoe, just slightly reshuffled. Charm is 975 range, Spirit Rush 450 per cast. Ahri can charm someone from over 2,375 units away, if she's willing to use her ult that way. Or, she can use her ult once, and out range Zoe's E in any feasible range to hit a Q or auto attack, kill someone, and still have 2 charges of her ult left.

I know Zoe's E seems cool, but she doesn't have the range permanence that combining skills like Ahri's does.

I FREQUENTLY use R to extend my Q's and E's on Ahri, or to plant 2 consecutive W's on top of a target. And her R doesn't exactly have a long cooldown.

And they do have similarities in every aspect of their kit:

E hits the very first target hit in every case. Q is potentially a 1 skill wave clear, both on similar cooldowns. W on proc acts EXACTLY the same on both champs (except Ahri gets her move speed Q, while Zoe's is on W): The W's even deal out similar damage, except Ahri's is more accessible.

Similar cooldowns, potential ranges. Except Ahri can actually get away.

What you're not getting is: Zoe's losing her E's Cooldown reduction on hit. That means it's not going to be an escape tool any more. One cleanse and she's on cooldown for 10+ seconds. That makes her E almost IDENTICAL to Ahri's Charm, other than the cantrip to add up to 510 damage if it works and isn't cleansed.

Zoe's Q can only cross about 1500 units ahead of her. Ahri can hit hers from over 1330 - 2230. It's not always a 1 hit, but it's usually accompanied by enough other damage to make it feel like one.

I'm over 90% win with Ahri btw. I generally know what I'm talking about.

Teridax681 votes

{quoted}

The problem is you're equivocating champs who rarely and if only situationally use the basic attack aspects of their kits vs champs who ALWAYS use them.

You can argue until you're blue in the face that the spam artillery mages have basic attack mods in their kit. It does not mean it has anywhere NEAR the utility of the mages I mentioned.

It is interesting that you would pivot on this point to bring up utility, because incidentally Zoe contributes a lot of it, via her E damage increase for allies, and her W supplying her a ton of different potentially useful actives. In the end, though, this still doesn't disprove the fact that artillery champions do incorporate at least some autoattacks to make use of their kit, such that Zoe is no different in this respect. More generally, I still fail to see what would make the old Zoe an artillery mage, but not Zoe after these nerfs (her ranges aren't getting reduced).

{quoted}

P.S. I've played all 139 champs, and I've played mages religiously since season 4. Don't tell me to "try" a champ and see how much you use it. The only time Ziggs ever uses his auto for the purpose of champ fights is when he is in dire straights, about to die, and he needs that extra 50-100 damage to kill an opponent whose closed the gap. It's rare, and usually doesn't work.

I'm a higher rank than you by far.

And I'm sure your uncle works at Nintendo, too.

Less facetiously, the reason I proposed that wasn't to disparage you or your skill at the game, but to point out that these champions do in fact play differently from what you think, and that your attempts to pretend that they somehow don't have features that clearly exist in their kit therefore fail to be convincing.

{quoted}

Ahri is exactly like Zoe, just slightly reshuffled. Charm is 975 range, Spirit Rush 450 per cast. Ahri can charm someone from over 2,375 units away, if she's willing to use her ult that way. Or, she can use her ult once, and out range Zoe's E in any feasible range to hit a Q or auto attack, kill someone, and still have 2 charges of her ult left.

Please point to a single instance of this ever happening. Do you realize how ridiculous that statement is, by the way? You're arguing that Ahri can approximate a single cast of Zoe's E by casting her own E then using her ultimate to dash away, also completely ignoring the fact that Zoe can personally use her own ult to blink in and follow up with a Q.

{quoted}

I know Zoe's E seems cool, but she doesn't have the range permanence that combining skills like Ahri's does.

Range permanence? To start, if you're going to invent a term, you might want to explain it, but Zoe's E can also turn into a trap, a functionality not present anywhere on Ahri's kit.

{quoted}

I FREQUENTLY use R to extend my Q's and E's on Ahri, or to plant 2 consecutive W's on top of a target. And her R doesn't exactly have a long cooldown.

80 seconds is not exactly frequent, either. You may claim to have played all 139 champs, to be a higher rank than me, to have graduated top of your class in the Navy Seals, etc., but outrageous statements like these seriously undermine your credibility, as they demonstrate a critical misunderstanding of even the simplest features of champions.

{quoted}

E hits the very first target hit in every case.

Oh boy, a linear colliding skillshot, I wonder how many of those there are in the game.

{quoted}

Q is potentially a 1 skill wave clear, both on similar cooldowns.

Because clearly no other champions have a waveclear ability.

{quoted}

W on proc acts EXACTLY the same on both champs (except Ahri gets her move speed Q, while Zoe's is on W): The W's even deal out similar damage, except Ahri's is more accessible.

... and Zoe's W copies summoner spells and items. But I'm sure this is only a small detail to you.

{quoted}

Similar cooldowns, potential ranges. Except Ahri can actually get away.

I didn't know Ahri's abilities could singlehandedly travel to artillery ranges, or that her ult only had a 5 second cooldown, but thanks for enlightening me.

{quoted}

What you're not getting is: Zoe's losing her E's Cooldown reduction on hit. That means it's not going to be an escape tool any more.

Losing that is just more cooldowns overall, and hurts her fishing more than her escape. It's not a fundamental design change.

{quoted}

Zoe's Q can only cross about 1500 units ahead of her. Ahri can hit hers from over 1330 - 2230. It's not always a 1 hit, but it's usually accompanied by enough other damage to make it feel like one.

Ahri can ult to close 1350 units before firing Q, but that does not mean her Q has 2230 range. I don't think you quite understand how artillery mages, or artillery-ranged abilities, work.

{quoted}

I'm over 90% win with Ahri btw. I generally know what I'm talking about.

That's funny, Ahri doesn't even show up on your played champions. You may try arguing that this is only your smurf account, and that you're actually secretly Challenger, but that wouldn't explain you being level 54 here. You're not really fooling anyone.

paisy1 votes

Regarding your Xerath point

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y2evudu-JA&index=12&list=PLVgS_BIOY01zKU_nIOjRyIFf6WTa2P13N at 29 minutes you see Xerath his passive on Gnar

Krully2 votes

dont mind the q damage, but fuck her e

Ahri Baka2 votes

The only reason why Riot nerfed because if people here in boards kept complaining about her while she wasn't a problem at all for me she is a free lane everytime I play against her , I guess Riot will do this nerf to show people how Zoe will be destroyed , and Believe , even with the nerfs , they still gonna complain about her , they always say " bad design "

Infernape3 votes

Sure. It has nothing to do with her near 80% global ban rate in diamond+ games (according to league of graphs), the fact that she is the most banned champion the entire game in all elos and regions and the fact that she's the most banned champion in competitive play.

People say she's badly designed because she is basically built upon the same thing that got Nidalee nerfed and reworked.

PopcornBunni1 votes

Good riddance. Maybe now I can finally use my bans for counterpicks instead of having to snapban this horribly designed character.

Azadethe1 votes

Or maybe you could have let her into your games and actually learn to play against her. I'm saying this as someone who doesn't actually player her beyond an early stint of trying her out. I literally have only lost ONE game in which Zoe was involved, and I never ban her. She's a freelo win for the opposing team.

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