A thread suggesting BC work only on autos is being upvoted

Tychusfindlay919·Mar 13, 2017·28 votes·1,721 views

I hope you upvoters are prepared for MAJOR cleaver juggernaut buffs in compensation to a potential change like that.

40 Comments

MissingKayoMar 13, 201714 votes

Or we could just do the intelligent thing and make it melee only.

MizayaMar 13, 20177 votes

{quoted}

Or we could just do the intelligent thing and make it melee only.

Why don't you hit up the lolking item statistics and tell me who's building cleaver most

MissingKayoMar 13, 20174 votes

What does that have to do with anything?

MizayaMar 13, 201713 votes

{quoted}

What does that have to do with anything?

I mean, do you even have a reason for making it melee only? Or is that the common knee jerk reaction for people here?

MissingKayoMar 13, 20175 votes

Maybe because it's not meant for ranged and ranged is abusing it?

MizayaMar 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Maybe because it's not meant for ranged and ranged is abusing it?

which goes back to my question. Have you looked at the item statistics?

If Lucian was abusing BC so hard, why are all the high elo players building triforce and bork instead now?

Why isn't MF support one of the strongest now, if she was abusing BC so badly? She's completely disappeared from the high elo and competitive meta already, btw.

It only takes a little bit of research and reasoning...

MissingKayoMar 13, 20176 votes

Yeah, and? That is completely irrelevant. Ranged Black Cleaver is still abuse and disgustingly toxic.

Lucian was gutted by nerfs separately. Because MF support is extremely situational?

Meanwhile MF as an ADC was pretty much always one of the top 3 for a while until the more recent nerfs? Educate yourself.

MizayaMar 13, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, and? That is completely irrelevant. Ranged abuse being more popular than the intended melee users because it is stronger when being abused by ranged doesn't make it fine.

5 most used are melee champions. Then Graves, who needs to pretty much play in melee range to use it effectively. Same with Jayce. REST OF TOP 10 ARE MELEE.

You need to educate yourself. Ranged champions being good with BC were ISOLATED cases. And you don't make melee only when you can do individual nerfs / buffs. Lul.

Give me other examples then if its so toxic and oppressing your gameplay.

BTW Buffs are what made lucian not build BC anymore. Can you believe it? Buffs? Un-thinkable!!! Almost like I've been saying all this time that buffs will help. But nah, can't possibly fathom the idea of buffing a champion you believe to be "abusing" your items.

MissingKayoMar 13, 20177 votes

And literally the only problematic users of Black Cleaver are the ranged ones, but whatever you must tell yourself.

MizayaMar 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

And literally the only problematic users of Black Cleaver are the ranged ones, but whatever you must tell yourself.

You can't tell me why that is so. Know why? You don't have the stats to back it up.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Lucian

https://na.op.gg/champion/missfortune/statistics/adc

But hey, those non-existant BC abusers are pushing tanks out of the meta! Definitely not that top 2 pickrate Fiora top lane! Man, why the hell are people even banning her? She's a melee, she can't possibly be a problem!

Guess FERAL FLARE wasn't a problem either when it was released, cuz the intended champions were using it! Why did those morons at Riot nerf that item again?

MissingKayoMar 13, 20174 votes

It's almost like you can cite outdated and meaningless statistics.

Lucian was gutted by nerfs a long time before this. Specifically because he was abusing the Korean armorpen/Cleaver build, which you also failed to note, hilariously enough.

MF was one of the top 3 ADCs for multiple patches in a row until the most recent one or so where she took some nerfs both directly and indirectly (Q damage, DFT nerf, EoN nerf, etc).

Go on. Try harder.

MizayaMar 13, 20173 votes

{quoted}

It's almost like you can cite outdated and meaningless statistics.

Lucian was gutted by nerfs a long time before this. Specifically because he was abusing the Korean armorpen/Cleaver build, which you also failed to note, hilariously enough.

MF was one of the top 3 ADCs for multiple patches in a row until the most recent one or so where she took some nerfs both directly and indirectly (Q damage, DFT nerf, EoN nerf, etc).

Go on. Try harder.

It's almost like I'm repeating the fact that there are individual cases of champions being too strong with an item, but your have an inability to comprehend that.

These statistics? Meaningless? God are you even looking LMAO? THESE are the latest high elo builds on Lucian. LATEST. LITERALLY FROM 4 HOURS AGO OR LESS. MF? those are stats from the last 5 patches.

And I'll say it again. If Lucian's a natural BC abuser, then how come he is now 2nd pickrate overall in ADC and NOT even building it?

Oh right, maybe BC got a change that didn't involve melee only but helped bruisers building it. Y'know, a couple patches ago. But I guess anything less than restricting it from half the champions in the game is not drastic enough for you. Gotta make sure those pesky ranged champions can't get their hands on it amirite.

btw, that change... maybe it shows that the CDR was why Lucian was buying it, and now Triforce gives 20% CDR but better stats for him. But hey, high elo players don't know what they're doing.

MF, let me repeat again. INDIVIDUAL. CASES. Heh, almost like not every ranged champion has an AOE ulti that stacks Black Cleaver incredibly fast.

Go on, keep telling me how being ranged means that Black Cleaver is insta broken. And while you're at it, keep downvoting every post of mine. Makes me feel important :)

MissingKayoMar 13, 20173 votes

oh for fuck's sakes do you not have any ability to use common sense

The individual cases are all ranged champions. There is not a single ranged champion healthy while abusing BC.

Those statistics are meaningless because the last time Lucian did well on Cleaver/pen build was before he was gutted specifically for using them several months ago.

Again, you don't even read. Not every single ranged champion abuses Cleaver. Every single one of the ones that do use Cleaver is abusive with it.

Go on, keep whining. Crying so much you need to pull up a second account is cute though. Typical children that can't handle being wrong.

MizayaMar 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

oh for fuck's sakes do you not have any ability to use common sense

The individual cases are all ranged champions. There is not a single ranged champion healthy while abusing BC.

Those statistics are meaningless because the last time Lucian did well on Cleaver/pen build was before he was gutted specifically for using them several months ago.

Again, you don't even read. Not every single ranged champion abuses Cleaver. Every single one of the ones that do use Cleaver is abusive with it.

Go on, keep whining. Crying so much you need to pull up a second account is cute though. Typical children that can't handle being wrong.

We're talking common sense here?

The entire notion of "melee only" on these boards is lacking in common sense. As of right now, the only melee only items are the two hydras and tiamat - BECAUSE they have interactions / actives that SPECIFICALLY apply to your autoattacks that wouldn't be fitting/balanced for ranged autoattacks. The same applies to runaans. This is something that won't hinder diversity / innovation because it is founded on fundamental, basic concepts of gameplay.

Your idea to make BC melee only doesn't have that. It's a hard-handed approach to balance that can only hinder creativity, theorycrafting, and innovation. Riot promotes this, or else we'd be seeing them trying to push Ziggs out of bot lane. They WANT alternative builds, picks, strategies, that's what keeps the game interesting ffs. When you can keep an alternative as a balanced alternative, that's not bad. With melee only, you won't get the rare game where BC is situationally good. I know balancing is far from perfect, but with melee only we cut off the path to the ideal state of balance where there are different itemization paths for different situations and so on.

But forget about that. You have yet to even explain HOW BC is abused. Whenever I see posts about making items melee only, there really is no explanation behind it, as if its taken as a fact that having a ranged auto attack somehow makes BC abusive. There is no inherent connection as with hydra, so, care to explain? Because we look at MF, and her ult clearly synergizes with BC. It's not her being ranged in her autoattacks that's the cause of that... it's in her abilities.

"Every single ranged champion that uses Cleaver abuses it." Alright, guess Urgot is an abusive, opressive champion. Man, I bet he's just ripping up tanks right now because he's ranged and builds BC! He's gotta be! Oh, wait. It's almost like it's not his autoattacks that synergize with it, but his AD DoT E. And he's pretty goddamn shitty in his current state.

So what are you going to tell me if Riot were to one day release a melee champion with a physical damage ranged DoT ability? "He's balanced because his autoattacks are melee!" No logic there.

I guess I am whining, because seeing so many players whine without even understanding what the implications of their proposed changes are bothers me. I mean there will be people, clearly not you, that will understand and thus become more knowledgeable about balance, so there's good in me "whining".

And no, I don't have a second account, you are on one though. Why's that? Got something to hide? Cause I don't. And I have yet to be proven wrong, I mean if you think you're so right you can always go to Riot and tell them about how you're being oppressed by ranged champions building cleaver. Beats me what makes you think that, but to each his own.

Papa AndreiMar 14, 20175 votes

I don't need statsites when I actually play the game and make my own decisions and not have some website do it for me lol

Edge of DaybreakMar 14, 20176 votes

{quoted}

I don't need statsites when I actually play the game and make my own decisions and not have some website do it for me lol

Yeah screw facts our feelings are what determines what is true and what is false. Now let us go walk on the sun my brother as it is night so it is cold now.

Mira Arya EntheMar 14, 20172 votes

No offense but statistics > personal experience.

Papa AndreiMar 14, 20172 votes

I just have a personal dislike of the "statistics" websites. Riot says they are close. But close could be anywhere to 0-1.5 SD away from what is the average. Also those websites use notoriously low sample sizes for most of their percentage calculations.

ItsOrvalMar 14, 20172 votes

I mean, do you even have a reason for making it melee only?

Because when someone like Miss Fortune can ult 5 people at once and reduce all their armor down by 45% withing 2 seconds is bs.

FireDrizzleMar 13, 20176 votes

They should change the armour shred to armour pen, and maybe reduce its synergy with lethality because lethality was meant for killing squishies. If they don't change it to armour pen they need to reduce it's synergy with lethality because you benefit from black cleaver when a team mate builds it. Now Rylais is nerfed black cleaver is the most overpowered item and changing it to giving individual power and not having an amazing utitlity would fix it imo. If the item is nerfed juggernauts will be terrible. Even with games getting decided early juggernauts aren't picked much, they aren't strong picks becuase they are generally USELESS lategame.

Thief of SpaceMar 13, 20174 votes

out of those 3 champs Garen will never get compensated item 3151

KilanostMar 13, 20173 votes

This man has a point.

L Psy KongrooMar 13, 20173 votes

There will be no compensation buffs.

There SHOULD be no compensation buffs.

PB4UAMEMar 14, 20171 votes

its only fucking ndesigned for them and not auto attacks, especially ranged. But fuck them right? League has always been dominated by range, particularly ranged ADCs, why stop that literally ever?

L Psy KongrooMar 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

its only fucking ndesigned for them and not auto attacks, especially ranged. But fuck them right? League has always been dominated by range, particularly ranged ADCs, why stop that literally ever?

Because a champion should never be both tanky and deal high damage at the same time. Black Cleaver provides too much extra mobility to champions who lack it, thus removing their one and only weakness.

Variks the LoyalMar 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEdfRVH0,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T02:39:06.231+0000)

Because a champion should never be both tanky and deal high damage at the same time.

That statement is inherently unhealthy and stifles creativity and gameplay possibilities.

A champion can easily be tanky and deal high damage. Provided there's proper counterplay, it's perfectly balanced. Such counterplay includes obvious telegraphing and low mobility - both of which are Juggernaut staples.

AhristocatsMar 13, 20172 votes

implying trinity force isn't better on darius than black cleaver

Tychusfindlay919Mar 13, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEdfRVH0,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-03-13T22:33:53.278+0000)

implying trinity force isn't better on darius than black cleaver

It's niche against pure squish teams. And don't even argue because dystrex is far better than the likes of you and never builds trinity, nor do challenger players like dyrus who occasionally pick darius up.

AhristocatsMar 14, 20171 votes

give me one reason to buy black cleaver over triforce

i can give you 15 reasons to buy triforce

but you felt insecure, and to counter this fact you quoted someone that i never heard about because you knew that you were trash

Deity ExcaliburMar 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEdfRVH0,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T07:43:18.318+0000)

give me one reason to buy black cleaver over triforce

i can give you 15 reasons to buy triforce

but you felt insecure, and to counter this fact you quoted someone that i never heard about because you knew that you were trash

I play alot of tanks top, and I can give you 5 reasons on why BC is better than triforce. (Keep in mind we're talking about laning phase, about 15 mins in the game where both opponents have 1 complete item. 1 : Less 150 health. (This helps ALOT when you're a tanky dude with barely no damage) 2 - Armor rush actually works (I mean, a pitty 120 damage boost early game every 2 seconds doesn't outscale reducing my armor by 30% and getting shat on) 3 - Less AD = less damage from abilities (darius hits hard with his abilities, including his ulti.) 4 - Attack speed oriented. Tanks love attack speed oriented champions, they're able to do their rotation and then back off with their immense CC because the enemy has no burst. 5 - After darius blows his E, he's useless. His Q will barely hit for anything early game due to no damage and no armor pen.

If you want to play darius top with triforce rush instead of black cleaver, that's fine by me, I'm sure a poppy/maokai/nautilus rushing sunfire cape will love you to hell and back if you do that.

AhristocatsMar 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

1 : Less 150 health. (This helps ALOT when you're a tanky dude with barely no damage)

it matters in early game/mid game, but not in late game where you have 4k hp, adding an other 150 is nothing

{quoted}

2 - Armor rush actually works (I mean, a pitty 120 damage boost early game every 2 seconds doesn't outscale reducing my armor by 30% and getting shat on)

you need to wait 5 sec to get 30% armor pen, that's nothing compared to what triforce gives, and the fact that it doesn't stack additively with E armor pen. Thus trinity force is better on short fights which means against squishies

additionally, that doesn't matter if in the end you take mortal reminder armor pen against ADCS lifesteal, you will still have bonus armor penetration example in this video below at 0.44 seconds https://youtu.be/HfwuqCkq9ao?t=44

and it isn't 120 damage boost, this shows that you have no clue about darius who had the top3 base ad in the game after morde and illaoi, triforce on him combined to sterak gage can give up to 300 bonus damage every 1.5 sec if you use your ability not at the same time

{quoted}

3 - Less AD = less damage from abilities (darius hits hard with his abilities, including his ulti.)

triforce allows you to get noxian might in a matter of a second, which gives 200 ad

{quoted} 4 - Attack speed oriented. Tanks love attack speed oriented champions, they're able to do their rotation and then back off with their immense CC because the enemy has no burst.

darius isn't a tank, and darius needs attack speed to have noxian might

and darius with a my build has 500 ad in late game with passive+fervor so having attack speed with 500 ad is way too superior to black cleaver

{quoted} 5 - After darius blows his E, he's useless. His Q will barely hit for anything early game due to no damage and no armor pen.

early game? why are you talking about early game when triforce is bought in midgame?

{quoted} , I'm sure a poppy/maokai/nautilus rushing sunfire cape will love you to hell and back if you do that.

they don't, no one can kill me in 1v1 except maokai because he's retarded you don't fight tanks with darius, you poke them with Q and waveclear, and play around 5 stacks to do extended trades, and sunfire won't do anything against that

here is what you forgot about triforce: -works on tower -gives attack speed the 2 above makes him one of the best splitpusher in the game

Tychusfindlay919Mar 14, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEdfRVH0,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T13:57:49.238+0000)

it matters in early game/mid game, but not in late game where you have 4k hp, adding an other 150 is nothing

you need to wait 5 sec to get 30% armor pen, that's nothing compared to what triforce gives, and the fact that it doesn't stack additively with E armor pen. Thus trinity force is better on short fights which means against squishies

additionally, that doesn't matter if in the end you take mortal reminder armor pen against ADCS lifesteal, you will still have bonus armor penetration example in this video below at 0.44 seconds https://youtu.be/HfwuqCkq9ao?t=44

and it isn't 120 damage boost, this shows that you have no clue about darius who had the top3 base ad in the game after morde and illaoi, triforce on him combined to sterak gage can give up to 300 bonus damage every 1.5 sec if you use your ability not at the same time

triforce allows you to get noxian might in a matter of a second, which gives 200 ad

darius isn't a tank, and darius needs attack speed to have noxian might

and darius with a my build has 500 ad in late game with passive+fervor so having attack speed with 500 ad is way too superior to black cleaver

early game? why are you talking about early game when triforce is bought in midgame?

they don't, no one can kill me in 1v1 except maokai because he's retarded you don't fight tanks with darius, you poke them with Q and waveclear, and play around 5 stacks to do extended trades, and sunfire won't do anything against that

here is what you forgot about triforce: -works on tower -gives attack speed the 2 above makes him one of the best splitpusher in the game

"no one can kill me 1v1 except maokai because he's retarded"

You build tri force into tank matchups? Maybe it's not maokai that's retarded LOL. Waste of my time, go make your case on dariusmains subreddit, I could care less to argue with you here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dariusmains/

Be our guest.

Deity ExcaliburMar 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XEdfRVH0,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-14T13:57:49.238+0000)

it matters in early game/mid game, but not in late game where you have 4k hp, adding an other 150 is nothing

you need to wait 5 sec to get 30% armor pen, that's nothing compared to what triforce gives, and the fact that it doesn't stack additively with E armor pen. Thus trinity force is better on short fights which means against squishies

additionally, that doesn't matter if in the end you take mortal reminder armor pen against ADCS lifesteal, you will still have bonus armor penetration example in this video below at 0.44 seconds https://youtu.be/HfwuqCkq9ao?t=44

and it isn't 120 damage boost, this shows that you have no clue about darius who had the top3 base ad in the game after morde and illaoi, triforce on him combined to sterak gage can give up to 300 bonus damage every 1.5 sec if you use your ability not at the same time

triforce allows you to get noxian might in a matter of a second, which gives 200 ad

darius isn't a tank, and darius needs attack speed to have noxian might

and darius with a my build has 500 ad in late game with passive+fervor so having attack speed with 500 ad is way too superior to black cleaver

early game? why are you talking about early game when triforce is bought in midgame?

they don't, no one can kill me in 1v1 except maokai because he's retarded you don't fight tanks with darius, you poke them with Q and waveclear, and play around 5 stacks to do extended trades, and sunfire won't do anything against that

here is what you forgot about triforce: -works on tower -gives attack speed the 2 above makes him one of the best splitpusher in the game

All of this argument is pointless if you're a darius main, you can even go lichbane first item and win vs most matchups because you are used to the champ. I'm talking about regular darius players, you're not gonna go ANYWHERE with a triforce when you don't even know your champ.

MizayaMar 13, 20171 votes

And what exactly surprises you about that? This is gameplay boards.