I am held hostage in the Bronze elo

Linda de Mol··3 votes·1,514 views

I will not claim that I am the most amazing player and I belong in Challenger.

But I think I can make myself work in Silver.

The problem is the amount of afkers, trollers and quitters in Bronze. Yes you have them everywhere. But this is the bottom of league. And all dirt piles up at the bottom, not the top.

I play against people who are bronze 5 zero LP and have nothing to lose.

-Very often, someone goes afk after 5 minutes and does not return. Game lost. -I get drunk people. "Srry i am drunk lol" and goes 0/10. -Quitters. After ten minutes, they tell me the game is already done and they hang out in base and wait for the defeat.

It is not fun. I want to get to Silver. Everything is fine, I win a couple of matches. Then I have bad luck and two afkers in a row so I am 40 LP back in the rank.

(Usually I gain around 17 LP and lose 20)

I rarely get a enemy with an afker. You can say this is not true but they are usually in my team. Next season I am going to count the amount of afkers in an excel file.

Please help me out of this nightmare. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

19 Comments

The Bad Touch3 votes

Actually watching Diamond+ is a waste of time. Frankly what the top 2% do has absolutely nothing to do with the Bronze/Silver game.

My suggestion is to pick 3-4 solo laners or junglers and practice with them for a week or 2.

Then proceed to carry yourself out of bronze.

This is coming from a Silver for life guy that knows he's too damn old to complete but still enjoys the game. :)

Kai Guy1 votes

Why the hell did this get downvoted. Look its accurate. I disagree with bad touch In this very thread, how ever its True that the meta between mmrs IS NOT THE SAME. Play what your able to make impact with. If your bad, play champions that teach you mechanics. Grind out games to improve your play. Always look at the after game lobby, how was your damage, damage taken, cs, vision score, CC score? take a note of it. check in 10 games later, did you improve somewhere?

Confused by a loss? Take a look at your replay, watch the entire game, how is your macro, would teammates won a fight if you where there? did you pick fights with a lot of mias that got you killed? Look for turning points in a match and think on if what you did was the best play.

Edit. Also never let some one give you shit for being bad, That's step 1. You can improve. You can get better, Its just a matter of wanting to do it. Most folks are garbage when they start anything new, It takes time and effort and a desire to grow. Don't let folks elo shame you, screw em if they do. You should have fun. If you don't give AF bout climbing ladder don't give AF about your rank. If you think climbing is fun, that's cool, focus on self improvement and you will see yourself get better results.

im ur AfricanDad2 votes

i know this feeling... i got demoted from silver 1 to 4 and its just bad luck and team mates.....i think just find a teammate u know thats good so u both carry ingame.......or just play noob champs that are just annoying in bronze........goodluck though

Kai Guy1 votes

I got demoted from Plat to Gold from bad teammates once! That being said, as that teammate was my duo and a good hommie IRL.... Entirely reasonable expectation for me to have.

Just the Lip1 votes

EU players : "It's not my fault im losing!"

[sg-miss-fortune]

Linda de Mol1 votes

{quoted}

EU players : "It's not my fault im losing!"

[sg-miss-fortune]

Eh..what the hell has this to do with euw? Wonderful ignorant comment.

Just the Lip2 votes

Your attitude of "its not my fault im in bronze" is 90% of why you are in bronze, and should be.

All you play is 1 ( sometimes 2 ) champs, you build the same items EVERY GAME.

You do not know how to itemize differently, or counter pick champs, you just continually pick the same champs and build the same way over and over again.

If you really wanna be better, watch GOOD PLAYERS play (Diamond+) and learn something, you wouldn't be bronze if u had better game knowledge.

Noor Sakata1 votes

for now , All you can do is to play 1v5 champions , playing support in Bronze Elo isn't a good idea play mid lane , Diana , Irelia or Top lane Jax , Kled or Jungle like Master Yi, Eve isn't bad for you , Vi can be good in bronze if played well just don't play support

Mobile Phone1 votes

You main sona a trash champ.

You have literally no item diversity other than boots.

There are many many more bronze 5s on the enemy team compared to yours in your past 40 games.

If you want to get to silver, stop playing sona and either switch role to a carry role or pick a carry/initiator support such as Bard Brand Blitzcrank Zyra

Also with the note of you maining sona, you probably won't ever come close to getting silver anytime soon, unless you know you are going to actually learn other shit

Kai Guy1 votes

Law of large numbers. its on your side. Afk, Troll, Awfull teammates. They have a higher % to be on the enemy team. If your good your favored by 20% if theres a bad game losing player.

To claim to be stuck here are a few options, pick what ever you feel is true.

  1. you don't have enough game for law of large numbers to kick in. That's btw how ELO systems are built to work so its no surprise If your sample size is to low for it to be inaccurate.
  2. Your wrong in your calculations of personal skill.
  3. Your bad luck breaks the law of large numbers. Yet some how despite having luck that awful your not dead by random bolts of lightening or plane parts smashing thru your roof and crushing your head in your sleep. Unless your awful luck exclusively applies to teammates in league of legends.
The Bad Touch1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XAttp3nc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-11-03T10:56:33.306+0000)

Law of large numbers. its on your side. Afk, Troll, Awfull teammates. They have a higher % to be on the enemy team. If your good your favored by 20% if theres a bad game losing player.

To claim to be stuck here are a few options, pick what ever you feel is true.

  1. you don't have enough game for law of large numbers to kick in. That's btw how ELO systems are built to work so its no surprise If your sample size is to low for it to be inaccurate.
  2. Your wrong in your calculations of personal skill.
  3. Your bad luck breaks the law of large numbers. Yet some how despite having luck that awful your not dead by random bolts of lightening or plane parts smashing thru your roof and crushing your head in your sleep. Unless your awful luck exclusively applies to teammates in league of legends.

The Law of Large Numbers requires a large sample size. :) In fact I believe it mentions something about "As sample sizes tend toward infinity."

Exactly 1/2 of the league community has less than average luck with teammates and opponents.

Something to think about.

Also your 20% advantage logic is flawed on a very very fundamental level. It disregards the fact that they have a 25% HIGHER chance to have a player that is also going to climb. (Or is possibly smurfing.)

And just for giggles I'm going to toss in some random dice rolls for 999d10's.

5494 5548 5563 5559 5547 5587 5437 5588 5519 5590

10 people playing 999 games.

We see a 2.7% variance. Even with pure luck and a small selection of players, over a rather large number of games, in this example you'd see the difference in one person losing LP and another climbing simply due to luck. The gap will be much MUCH wider with a player base in the millions.

A Gold player will easily climb out of bronze, but may struggle getting out of Silver 1 with bad luck.

Just like a silver 4/5 player might struggle getting out of bronze with bad luck.

You'd have to play ten's of thousands of games to average things out.

Kai Guy1 votes

First something I agree with you on. "A Gold player will easily climb out of bronze, but may struggle getting out of Silver 1 with bad luck. Just like a silver 4/5 player might struggle getting out of bronze with bad luck."

My rule of thumb is you need to be about 4 divisions skill higher to reliably climb over low # of games then its a grind after that. Honestly depending on meta and skill once your within 1-3 divisions of your true skill the game does tend to be luck of the draw for teammates, because your just not good enough as a player to make consistent required impact for large # to benefit you. What im saying is if your worse then your mmr, or the game has you at your mmr, do not expect to climb with anything besides dumb luck. That dumb lucks going to Not be in your favor btw, law of large numbers will work negatively vs you if the system has you overvalued.

Now some confusion I have.

Where the hell you getting 25% from there's a better player on the enemy team? 10 players in game. Each player is 1/10, or 10% of the total players in a match. Each team is only 5 payers, so each player is 20% of their team.

Look the assumption that 20% of the time a game losing player is on the enemy team holds true. On the flip side we can say that theres also a 20% chance that a single game winner player can be placed onto the enemy team as well. I realize I glossed over this but I will repeat whats very key to large #s helping you it in bold this time

if your good your favored by 20% if theres a bad game losing player.

Ok so shure you can call me out on my 20% rule being about bad players only. So now between good players or smurfs vs awfull players, what do you thinks more common in bronze? Bronze is lower then the starting MMR for every players account in theory you have to be worse then average to end up there or have a rough time in placements/first few games. That being said, lets talk about what is a realistic expectation. Pick one, That in bronze there is a higher # of good climbing players and smurfs or that in bronze there is a higher number of really bad or Toxic Players?

This is my bias, I believe that theres more Bad players then good, theres more people on their way down then going up. You may disagree if you wish. My view comes from being a bronze player when I started, from beleiveing in elo hell, from blameing teammates for losses. Then I got less toxic, then I got better at the game, Now I can steam roll thru bronze should I smurf.

Anyhow regardless of this, if you yourself are a better player and by a solid margin. Your team has a benefit in 100% of the games you play. Law of largenumbers baby, casino style you just need an edge for it to favor you, bigger that edge bigger the gains with lower requirements on games played.

I don't quite know what you wanted to prove with your random dice rolls. Far as i can guess here is where you fucked up. your dice are all d10. The law is not gonna help you in a 50% 50% environment. It has to be if you have a consistent edge, that is to say your better then your assigned mmr, your a perk for your team, your not deadweight, your not placed at your skill.

You want to see what that's like? I will use your 10 d10 roll results. Just for giggles here is 30 people playing 9900. The higher their impact the higher the dice roll they get. Bad will be d10. Average is going to be d12, and players 2 times better then bad will be d20. Im going to use https://rolz.org/

D10 A bad player Your roles
5494
5548 5563 5559 5547 5587 5437 5588 5519 5590 My rolls 999D10 => 5550 999D10 => 5573 999D10 => 5563 999D10 => 5554 999D10 => 5631 999D10 => 5476 999D10 => 5437 999D10 => 5394

D12. The average players. Note, only a max of 2 points higher roll potential but with high # of games its very clearly in the lead. 999D12 => 6532 999D12 => 6548 999D12 => 6649 999D12 => 6600 999D12 => 6316 999D12 => 6623 999D12 => 6626 999D12 => 6523 999D12 => 6475 999D12 => 6613

Now D20, a good player, roughtly 2X better best case then a bad player. 999D20 => 10702 999D20 => 10246 999D20 => 10557 999D20 => 10416 999D20 => 10473 999D20 => 10383 999D20 => 10602 999D20 => 10102 999D20 => 10239 999D20 => 10723

Perhaps 999 is way high i mean shit, that's a lot of games for a player to do after all. Lets run this experiment again with only 100, The number of games to get the Veteran badge. D10. D12 D20 100D10 => 536 100D12 => 658 100D20 => 1042 100D10 => 565 100D12 => 638 100D20 => 1102 100D10 => 535 100D12 => 709 100D20 => 1082 100D10 => 582 100D12 => 628 100D20 => 1006 100D10 => 586 100D12 => 642 100D20 => 1059 100D10 => 615 100D12 => 628 100D20 => 1118 100D10 => 535 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1071 100D10 => 522 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1048 100D10 => 542 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1051 100D10 => 531 100D12 => 712 100D20 => 922

Like, I really don't quite get WTF your dice rolls was about, at all. you just randomly thru it in for giggles I guess.... but uh... not everybody is the same dice. If you do 10 players as all d10 and your using the dice for as a metaphor for skill. you screwed up. Not all players are equil, some are d3s. some are d20. Everybody might roll a 1 and throw a matchbut the best case is not the same between every player.

Your using d10 exclusively implies all 10 players have the exact same skill. Same best cases, same worst cases. That's not realistic to the game state, at all. I really am confused by what ever metaphor you wanted to make with the dice roles but man at a minute 2 points, a d12 clearly after 100 games shows better results to a d10.

Side note. 2 points is 20% of 10. 20% is statistically significant very fast. Look at the results of d10 vs d12.

The Bad Touch1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XAttp3nc,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2018-11-04T08:10:07.997+0000)

First something I agree with you on. "A Gold player will easily climb out of bronze, but may struggle getting out of Silver 1 with bad luck. Just like a silver 4/5 player might struggle getting out of bronze with bad luck."

My rule of thumb is you need to be about 4 divisions skill higher to reliably climb over low # of games then its a grind after that. Honestly depending on meta and skill once your within 1-3 divisions of your true skill the game does tend to be luck of the draw for teammates, because your just not good enough as a player to make consistent required impact for large # to benefit you. What im saying is if your worse then your mmr, or the game has you at your mmr, do not expect to climb with anything besides dumb luck. That dumb lucks going to Not be in your favor btw, law of large numbers will work negatively vs you if the system has you overvalued.

Now some confusion I have.

Where the hell you getting 25% from there's a better player on the enemy team? 10 players in game. Each player is 1/10, or 10% of the total players in a match. Each team is only 5 payers, so each player is 20% of their team.

Look the assumption that 20% of the time a game losing player is on the enemy team holds true. On the flip side we can say that theres also a 20% chance that a single game winner player can be placed onto the enemy team as well. I realize I glossed over this but I will repeat whats very key to large #s helping you it in bold this time

Ok so shure you can call me out on my 20% rule being about bad players only. So now between good players or smurfs vs awfull players, what do you thinks more common in bronze? Bronze is lower then the starting MMR for every players account in theory you have to be worse then average to end up there or have a rough time in placements/first few games. That being said, lets talk about what is a realistic expectation. Pick one, That in bronze there is a higher # of good climbing players and smurfs or that in bronze there is a higher number of really bad or Toxic Players?

This is my bias, I believe that theres more Bad players then good, theres more people on their way down then going up. You may disagree if you wish. My view comes from being a bronze player when I started, from beleiveing in elo hell, from blameing teammates for losses. Then I got less toxic, then I got better at the game, Now I can steam roll thru bronze should I smurf.

Anyhow regardless of this, if you yourself are a better player and by a solid margin. Your team has a benefit in 100% of the games you play. Law of largenumbers baby, casino style you just need an edge for it to favor you, bigger that edge bigger the gains with lower requirements on games played.

I don't quite know what you wanted to prove with your random dice rolls. Far as i can guess here is where you fucked up. your dice are all d10. The law is not gonna help you in a 50% 50% environment. It has to be if you have a consistent edge, that is to say your better then your assigned mmr, your a perk for your team, your not deadweight, your not placed at your skill.

You want to see what that's like? I will use your 10 d10 roll results. Just for giggles here is 30 people playing 9900. The higher their impact the higher the dice roll they get. Bad will be d10. Average is going to be d12, and players 2 times better then bad will be d20. Im going to use https://rolz.org/

D10 A bad player Your roles
5494
5548 5563 5559 5547 5587 5437 5588 5519 5590 My rolls 999D10 => 5550 999D10 => 5573 999D10 => 5563 999D10 => 5554 999D10 => 5631 999D10 => 5476 999D10 => 5437 999D10 => 5394

D12. The average players. Note, only a max of 2 points higher roll potential but with high # of games its very clearly in the lead. 999D12 => 6532 999D12 => 6548 999D12 => 6649 999D12 => 6600 999D12 => 6316 999D12 => 6623 999D12 => 6626 999D12 => 6523 999D12 => 6475 999D12 => 6613

Now D20, a good player, roughtly 2X better best case then a bad player. 999D20 => 10702 999D20 => 10246 999D20 => 10557 999D20 => 10416 999D20 => 10473 999D20 => 10383 999D20 => 10602 999D20 => 10102 999D20 => 10239 999D20 => 10723

Perhaps 999 is way high i mean shit, that's a lot of games for a player to do after all. Lets run this experiment again with only 100, The number of games to get the Veteran badge. D10. D12 D20 100D10 => 536 100D12 => 658 100D20 => 1042 100D10 => 565 100D12 => 638 100D20 => 1102 100D10 => 535 100D12 => 709 100D20 => 1082 100D10 => 582 100D12 => 628 100D20 => 1006 100D10 => 586 100D12 => 642 100D20 => 1059 100D10 => 615 100D12 => 628 100D20 => 1118 100D10 => 535 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1071 100D10 => 522 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1048 100D10 => 542 100D12 => 651 100D20 => 1051 100D10 => 531 100D12 => 712 100D20 => 922

Like, I really don't quite get WTF your dice rolls was about, at all. you just randomly thru it in for giggles I guess.... but uh... not everybody is the same dice. If you do 10 players as all d10 and your using the dice for as a metaphor for skill. you screwed up. Not all players are equil, some are d3s. some are d20. Everybody might roll a 1 and throw a matchbut the best case is not the same between every player.

Your using d10 exclusively implies all 10 players have the exact same skill. Same best cases, same worst cases. That's not realistic to the game state, at all. I really am confused by what ever metaphor you wanted to make with the dice roles but man at a minute 2 points, a d12 clearly after 100 games shows better results to a d10.

Side note. 2 points is 20% of 10. 20% is statistically significant very fast. Look at the results of d10 vs d12.

Actually the dice rolls were a direct comparison between 2 different people of equal performance playing 999 games. The d10 itself is entirely arbitrary. It could as well be a d6 or a d100. The results are simply to represent that 2 players of the exact same skill ceiling will have entirely different luck on who they are matched with and versus. Given equal MMR there are a LOT of players that consistently perform above average and those that consistently under perform.

Over the course of a sample even as large as 999 games on a scale of 1-10 rating how well the other 4 members of their team performed within the same MMR bracket it's quite possible that you get a slightly larger number of better or worse players. There are Silver 5 players that would not be out of place in Gold 5 and their are Gold 5 players that wouldn't be out of place in Silver 5. With a sample size of tens of millions of accounts there are going to be a large number of people that fall through the cracks in match making with simple bad luck.

The top 1% and bottom 1% guys (in terms of the system that randomly matches people of the correct role and similar MMR) are still 2 MILLION people in a game with a 100,000,000 population.

To pull some numbers out of my ass here (for the sake of argument) let's say the bottom 1% have a 5% increased rate of leavers/trolls/under performing team members which leads to a 5% greater rate of losing than the top 1%. So given dead equal performance the top 1% win 52.5 % of their games against the bottom 1%.

Kai Guy1 votes

Look, your not wrong. When everbody has the same odds to win, when everybody is on the same skill, its luck. How ever this is not what an elo system is and its not a reflection of the game. I get wanting to make a point /argument but I fear your drifting off topic.

If you take the time to respond I would like you to directly reply to the following.

Your comparison for bottom 1% vs top 1%, "given dead equal performance" Realistically, when do you think we will ever see this?

If we put a top 1% player on a smurf into bronze 5 what do you thinks going to happen after 100 games?

If we put a bottom 1% player on a Challanger account, what do you think will happen after 100 games?

Where did you get "It disregards the fact that they have a 25% HIGHER chance to have a player that is also going to climb"?

The Bad Touch1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XAttp3nc,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-06T23:32:00.680+0000)

Look, your not wrong. When everbody has the same odds to win, when everybody is on the same skill, its luck. How ever this is not what an elo system is and its not a reflection of the game. I get wanting to make a point /argument but I fear your drifting off topic.

If you take the time to respond I would like you to directly reply to the following.

Your comparison for bottom 1% vs top 1%, "given dead equal performance" Realistically, when do you think we will ever see this?

If we put a top 1% player on a smurf into bronze 5 what do you thinks going to happen after 100 games?

If we put a bottom 1% player on a Challanger account, what do you think will happen after 100 games?

Where did you get "It disregards the fact that they have a 25% HIGHER chance to have a player that is also going to climb"?

Top 1% and Bottom 1% of LUCK not skill. :)

Kai Guy1 votes

Ok. So give me the gaps you think luck will compensate for skill.

Lets say for example, What Elo is a top 1% of Luck player with bronze level skill going to end up in after 200 games compared to a bottom 1% of luck player @ Challenger level skill player over 200 games?

Asking again for clarity, Still want to know where in the heck your pulling out "It disregards the fact that they have a 25% HIGHER chance to have a player that is also going to climb"" I do not understand where you are possibly getting 25% from.

So, Player skill. Where do you in account for that in your argument? you have to account for skill when talking about mmr and ranked ladder. Its a factor in games.

The Bad Touch1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XAttp3nc,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-21T11:15:00.300+0000)

Ok. So give me the gaps you think luck will compensate for skill.

Lets say for example, What Elo is a top 1% of Luck player with bronze level skill going to end up in after 200 games compared to a bottom 1% of luck player @ Challenger level skill player over 200 games?

Asking again for clarity, Still want to know where in the heck your pulling out "It disregards the fact that they have a 25% HIGHER chance to have a player that is also going to climb"" I do not understand where you are possibly getting 25% from.

So, Player skill. Where do you in account for that in your argument? you have to account for skill when talking about mmr and ranked ladder. Its a factor in games.

Well from my own observations and religious checking of match histories and things like op.gg I can tell you this much as a Silver for life average player I've seen players everywhere from Bronze 2 to Gold 4 with zero apparent skill gap. Considering B2 to G4 is ~ 2/3 of the player base yes I'd say simple luck in match making is the primary difference between a high Bronze and a Low gold player.

To support this I'd cite my own friends list. I have friends who I constantly out perform who have climbed to gold and others who consistently outperform me who are stuck around S5/4.

The only conclusion I can pull from this is that skill doesn't really come into play until around mid gold. Everything below that is a crap shoot. Average players will never get stuck in B3/4/5 and below average players will rarely climb above G4. The thing is MOST of the players base will be stuck in the quagmire between B2 and G4 and are generally only at the whim on match making

RookPusher1 votes

Don't play support.

Binding Eclipse1 votes

Silver is exactly the same, in case you're curious. Don't get too ahead of yourself.

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