Zyra has almost twice as much base mana regen at lvl 1 as a normal mage.

TotalJerk··24 votes·8,770 views
  • Most mages: 8
  • Most enchanters and Kayn (tied for the second highest in the game) : 11.5
  • Zyra: 15.335

Even when taking scaling into consideration, Zyra still ties for 8th highest base regen at level 18." What's your point?", some of you may ask. There are two major problems with this:

  • Despite the fact that as a support she doesn't have to use spells to farm, she can cast way more before going OOM than a mid lane mage. She isn't punished nearly as much as most mages for mindlessly spamming.
  • Since the last mage item rework Riot decided to shift mid lane mages towards relying on flat mana and the Lost Chapter passive for mana sustain in lane, while % base mana regen was made a stat primarily used on support items.

This ultimately means that Zyra synergizes more with support items than actual mage items, which is likely a contributing factor to Zyra not being preferred mid; item 3098 is simply a better item on her than item 3802

EDIT: Since people here seem to be unable to grasp nuance, I'm not saying Zyra is OP, I'm saying that her base regen is part of why she is preferred support over mid because of how itemization for both roles works. She needs power shifted away from that stat torwards something else if Riot actually wants her to be a mid laner again.

35 Comments

0 Hogapu18 votes

Let’s forget to mention that her mana costs are super high, at every rank (EVEN IF yeah her w has no mana cost, her q and e cost a lot)

flibitydoo3 votes

Let's call out the OP for forgetting to mention the mana cost

then forget to actual state the manacosts ourselves.

btw

Zyra Q: 70 mana cost at all ranks. 7-5 second cooldown scaling down with rank

W no mana cost

E:70-90 mana cost scaling up with rank. She maxes this second (so it's going to be 70 for the laning phase, which is the context OP seems to be talking about). 12 second cooldown at all ranks.

R:100-140 mana cost scaling up with rank. 130-110 second cooldown scaling down with rank. I don't think anyone actually cares about ult mana costs though especially not in lane (except maybe kassadin)

wouldnt' say her mana costs are super high. Q and E have similar mana costs (around the 50-100 manacost range) that a lot of mages have for their Q and E abilities. Except those a fair amount have a W ability to spend as well, and many have abilties who costs scale higher than 100 (such as Viktor, who's E ranges from 70-110 manacost which is an ability he maxes first)

aezens1 votes

If that´s the argument for Zyra high mana reg I want at least 20 per 5 for Morgana

Lhuhz2 votes

No, her mana costs are not super high.

TotalJerk1 votes

Her mana costs are above average, not "super high". The costs basically just offset the fact that W is free. The costs aren't remotely in proportion with how much more regen she gets than other mages. Q cost also doesn't scale with rank.

Cosmic Khan1 votes

Compared to who?

Lux and Anivia would like a word with them for high mana costs.

IG Ziko9 votes

Excuse me sir, but do u know that both her Q and E cost 70 mana at rank 1? Do u know that her E cost up to 90 mana and her ult cost up to 140 mana? If that is not called a high mana cost then I don't know what is.

And about spamming abilities... If u actually use ur spells without seeds, u r actually trolling. The W seeds has long cooldowns till the mid game and her passive seeds r so hard to control. It's not like hitting Lux or Zilean spells when they r up because actually u do need a setup.

And my final point here. Why don't u also compare her base HP and HP scaling with other mages as well? She has one of the lowest base HP at level 18 in the entire game with less than 1850 actually, while most of squishy champions average at 2000-2200.

TotalJerk2 votes

All the more reason to play her support instead of a mage, which is the problem I'm addressing here.

Cosmic Khan1 votes

70 mana isn't really high.

Lux's E goes to 145 mana at Rank 5 if I remember correctly.

Lhuhz1 votes

Nami W goes to 130

GrReaper968 votes

Not to mention her W cost no mana

Spearsus8 votes

It literally deals 0 damage and has like a 26s cooldown at rank though, and it's a recharge system that gives seeds and nothing else????????????????????????????????? why would it cost anything.

GrReaper961 votes

Sorry I didnt word that well. My point was her overall spell rotation has among the lowest mana cost among mages and supports because her W is a manaless skill

Bladerunner77774 votes

It's kind of been like that since Zyra's release though. Riot created her without realizing how better suited she is as a support.

TrikzterzArma6 votes

{quoted}

It's kind of been like that since Zyra's release though. Riot created her without realizing how better suited she is as a support.

What, no? She was never played as a support in several years

Sewer Side16 votes

{quoted}

What, no? She was never played as a support in several years

She’s been taken support since Season 3, around the same time the new support income items were introduced.

There used to be vigorous debates even back in 2013-2014 where she should go. The lane she was competitively good in (support) or the lane she was designed for (mid)

MissMikasa4 votes

Riot took her mid lane power away from her to push her bot, not that she was that good for it in the first place.

They did the same thing to Karma and Morgana. Such bs.

Gilgayu2 votes

Things like this happens though.

Vi was originally designed for top, and she's better at jg. Irelia was originally designed for top, but... Pyke was designed to be support, yet people play him jg or mid sometime because how well he scales...

Evil Bisex Plant3 votes

That's right - I mean, it's pretty normal for supports to have 3/5 of your spells purely damaging while the 4th one being probably the weakest hard CC in the game and the 5th one being the ultimate...

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

yeah, totally not biased at all. A 1-2 second root that can go through minions and champions to root up to 5 people. "weakest hard cc".

5050BS1 votes

Neeko

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

and your point is?

MissMikasa2 votes

Uh no. Unless they said so, that's not true.

She was designed for mid and played there until Morello left, giving Meddler and GC free reign to take power away from mid lane mages and pushing them bot.

TotalJerk1 votes

No it hasn't. They made her have the highest mana regen in the game some time around when they did the mage itemization sweep last year.

Bladerunner77771 votes

That doesn't refute my point

Fact of the matter is, Zyra has been played as a support for a long-ass time. Nothing Riot has done recently is "pushing her out of midlane". Riot tried to make her more suitable as a midlaner when they changed her passive and stuff, but the reality is, Zyra will always be a superior as a support because of the way her kit is designed (and how well she synergizes with long-standing support items aka spellthiefs).

ApexInTheCircle4 votes

I agree but her main issue that she suffers is her base on her skills is fairly low when compared to other botlane support mages like Brand Velkoz . My biggest issue is that most of her damage comes mostly from her plants dps and less from her actual skills. She needs a higher skill cap that revolves around her actually landing her skills, instead of hit some seedlings in the backline and let them focus whoever they hit.

Errastas1 votes

Her damage comes from landing skills while dropping W seeds so they focus the target

Saianna4 votes

I see some peeps are trying to create anti-zyra circlejerk shitstorm lately.

meh.

TotalJerk1 votes

I swear to god sometimes it feels like people cannot comprehend anything with more depth that "X champ is OP" or "X champ is UP".

My point is that having the highest base mana regen in the game by a large margin along with the fact that that particular stat has been pushed torwards being a support stat instead of mid mage stat is a big contributing factor to her being preferred support over mid. Base mana regen does not scale with lost chapter, but it scales with items like Frostfang and Redemption.

Saianna1 votes

You see...

When forum is bombarded by random threads about certain parts of Zyras kit, in your case it's mana regen, in other it's her plants, in yet another her ultimate, then when you combine all of this, Zyra turns out to be walking Baron with infinite energy, instant-kill aoe, cc for years and plants to harass poor ADCs.

When in fact she's not even that amazing.

She was supposed to be a mage, but her ratios are total shit. It was something that caused players to play her as a support, because 500ap of nothing is still nothing, while a support can still do something. Not to mention her "amazing" rework, that made sure Zyra mid is bad idea.

Many had already pointed that out, but with her huge mana regen, her abilities are costly. But there's also another thing. She has to use 2 abilities (q/e + seed) for a plant. Granted the seed is for free, but you gotta set it up. Someone can run away from the plant before its activated. Or smash it. Then she's back to her crappy passive or waiting 25s~for another plant.

I won't be telling you to use some hard zyra-counters, cause that's crappy argument, but one thing's for sure. You should threat her like a teethless mage, rather than ADC-protecting support. She works on her base damage and maybe some on-damage bonuses, but her scallings are crap. And what other thing works better against a mage (and adc), if not all-in rush/gank? :)

Edit: Also by no means should you go for passive-agressive poking against adc and mage. Not only will you lose hp faster, they'll get free gold out of you.

Lhuhz1 votes

When in fact she's not even that amazing.

Maybe amazing isn't the word, but strong sure. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zyra/

le secret op1 votes

are we really complaining about zyra now, of all things in botlane......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

5050BS1 votes

Her Wave clear is shit tho and costs tons of man. She can push a wave faster then Zed or Ekko or Akali or a lot of midlaners

Riot wont do what they need to do to bring her midlane so she just needs to be flat out reworked.

Tacosrock1 votes

Yeah, I think that all mages should have similar mana regen. It's bullshit that something like Taliyah has little waveclear and high mana costs yet she barely has any regen at all. Meanwhile, Zyra is free of that penalty because she is played support? Hmm okay.

Vekkna1 votes

Your thesis is disprovable by looking at Zyra's patch history. Her early mana regen was only buffed to absurd levels at the beginning of season 8. Riot began hard-pigeonholing her to support in season 4-5 and cemented that irreversibly in season 6 with her damage nerfs and toxic passive.

More from Gameplay

More by TotalJerk