Boards›Gameplay

Lissandra and her state in 4.13

Canastus··6 votes·1,162 views

Lissandra First of all, it's good to see you guys at Riot haven't forgotten the Ice Witch entirely. It's too bad you still haven't finished testing on her new passive but let's talk about the recent changes. To be honest, I'm not very fond of the current approach.

**Q - Ice Shard COOLDOWN 6/5.5/5/4.5/4 seconds ⇒ 6/5.25/4.5/3.75/3 seconds ** A lower cooldown on her main source of damage may be nice but according to those numbers you only feel the difference once you reach a far later point of the game. Her early to midgame remain unaffected which is still the most problematic phase for Lissandra.

You didn't even consider applying the slow on any further targets which her shards may hit. This is a big issue for Lissandra as she's having a hard time kiting a target properly due to the short range on this ability.

W - Ring of Frost ABILITY POWER RATIO 0.60 ⇒ 0.40 She's already weak as she is, seeing as she lacks any real burst-damage - the more problematic is this huge change for her. You downright nerfed her damage-output without giving her anything in return. I absolutely cannot comprehend your reason for doing this.

You didn't even decrease the insane cooldown on this only form of self-peel besides blowing her ultimate every two minutes. I don't see her winning any trades with this.

R - Frozen Tomb SLOW 20/30/40% ⇒ 30/45/75% This has to be the most disappointing change of them all. Her ultimate already lacks any decent damage, instead you settled for adding a bonus to her slow which only really makes a difference once you've reached rank 3.

The scaling on the ability itself is downright imbalanced (+15%, +30%), there's no denying it. You're basically locking away the vast majority of its potential until you hit lv16.

So what's the result? Can we call those changes really buffs? I don't think so. She's still a massively underpowered champion with more flaws than strengths. She has no mobility, her only form of escape is on a huge cooldown along with an initial cast-delay.

She lacks any decent damage-output, her poke is mildly annoying at best. She has no shield or inherent tankyness to make up for her abysmal range, combined with her current kit she's forced to suicide to even pull off her rotation.

I've yet to see a Lissandra who hasn't lost a game for her team. Every single one I've encountered so far did feed her lane opponent and ended up being useless once teamfights rolled in. She's incredibly weak on her own and simply not suited for Solo Q play. I believe some serious rethinking is in order here.

11 Comments

Felvyne3 votes

Lissandra isn't supposed to be a Burst Mage. Is like trying to give Karthus or Cassio more burst. Lissandra in terms of damage enters in this category, but since she is more a utility mage she doesn't have that much damage potencial as those two. I would only agree with the first point, because is the only thing that I feel weird with the current Lissandra.

Canastus2 votes

She lacks a real identity since her abilities are average at best, there are champions who are clearly superior at either applying snares, slows or stuns. She may be a jack of all trades but that's why she'll never excel at what's she's doing. She'll never be up to par with someone like Orianna or LeBlanc, depending if you attempt to build her as an utility-mage or assassin.

Incredibly Lucid2 votes

I've actually been playing a lot of Lissandra myself (haven't played even more games because I'm now on vacations, away from home). I have to say I disagree with you in most of those points.

The changes, as a whole, seem to keep Lissandra pretty much like she was before these (in terms of overall strength). From my point of view she is not any stronger or any weaker than she was before - just different.

You mentioned the CDR on her Q is not noticeable mid game but that's incorrect, since it'll be noticeable at least at level 9, and that's not even near late game. You also said that the slow percentage increase on her ultimate was dissapointing, and I can't seem to grasp why - it's a straightforward buff to her utility at every stage of the game.

And then there's this part where you say that she's a "massively underpowered champion" who "lacks any decent damage-output" - I just flat out disagree with this. Her damage and utility in team fights make her a monster when played correctly - in most of the games I play I am able to win the team fight by myself simply by setting a good W > R combo in 3 people. She takes some getting used to, but once you do she can be very rewarding, initiating an engage like no other AP mid, and her objective control in pit fights near baron and drake is just insane. You will rarely be able to 100-0 someone unless extremely fed and I'm glad Riot is shying away from this since it would be a really toxic gameplay for her.

That being said, I agree that her lane phase is lackluster, but if it was too strong she's be good at all stages of the game and Riot tries to avoid that (more or less successfully). I also agree with you when you say that removing the 0.2 AP scaling on her W was needless. The only way I'd see myself being ok with this change is if they reduced this skill's cooldown by 1 second for each champion hit.

On a side note, I have a really easy time carrying (or at least doing my fair share) with Lissandra. Her ganks mid game can be devastating and the fact that she can control when your team goes in is very helpful if there's no one else to initiate.

Canastus3 votes

You're saying the changes to her ultimate are a straight improvement to every stage of her game, well I disagree. I'm not satisfied with the scaling on her ultimate BECAUSE it locks away the VAST majority of its potential until you reach level 16. They should split it up evenly with a 20% increase on each rank, the current 15% and 30% increases aren't the best way to go about this since they're clearly out of balance.

R - Frozen Tomb SLOW 30/45/75% ⇒ 35/55/75% Now that would be a far more reasonable approach, at least it would make up for the blatant lack of power in the ability.

Lissandra's overall kit enforces a playstyle which leaves little room for error since it'll screw you over massively. I already explained to someone how DPS mages have been out of favor for two seasons now, and that for a good reason. Their niché is literally dying and Riot is doing nothing about it.

Serpents Embrace2 votes

So do you embark on these false crusades as like..a hobby? Or...? What's the deal with these?

Teridax681 votes

Lissandra happens to be one of the handful of mages with a gapcloser, so her mobility isn't bad at all by mage standards, despite her low base movespeed and long-ish E cooldown. Her burst isn't great, but then again she's not meant to specialize in high damage. Her DPS, on the other hand, is pretty good, especially with the reduced cooldown on her Q, and ultimately she specializes in inflicting a ton of crowd control. You may not be impressed with the buff to her ult slow, but it's a massive boost to her overall CC. In the end, you're going to pick her specifically for super-high crowd control, not for burst, so you shouldn't be expecting her to output tons of damage.

That said, I do agree that Lissandra is missing innate defense to allow her to initiate to her full potential. There was an idea revolving around stacking shields to replace her current passive, and even though it got scrapped, it's the ongoing theme for a potential replacement for her passive. However, despite what you may think, she is strong at a lot of things. She has extremely good anti-melee kiting potential, more tools for saving herself than any other mage (she has an extra item 3157 and a 900+ range gapcloser), good DPS and the best CC out of the entire mage roster. Even if she may need a bit more post-initiation survivability, she doesn't need any additional damage.

Incredibly Lucid2 votes

I'd say you are spot on. Her damage is fine the way it is right now.

Canastus2 votes

There are several midlaners with superior gapclosers in this game, Lissandra's is among the worst considering how slow it is. DPS mages haven't seen any use for over two seasons now, for a good reason. They're entirely outclassed by sheer burst-damage since being able to kill someone immediately is a lot more reliable than being dependent on staying alive for several seconds just to get the damage across.

It's even worse if you consider how every single DPS mage is crippled by low mobility and low range, also let's not forget their inherent squishyness. Riot has singlehandely killed off an entire niché of champions by literally enforcing mobility creep with every single new champion release. They need to introduce some drastic changes or start reworking those champions, otherwise I see no future for them.

Blowing her ultimate just to protect yourself is pretty much the worst way to use the ability since it'll hardly damage the enemy, all they have to do is simply wait until you become targetable again so they can murder you. Things would be way more different if she'd recieve an additional shield once the ultimate wore off after casting it on herself.

Teridax681 votes

It's true that there are several midlaners with superior mobility, but then again not every midlaner is a mage. Sure, assassins are going to have more mobility and burst, but they're not going to have nearly as much CC as Lissandra (who, by the way, does extremely well against most assassins). I also disagree that DPS mages are hardly seen, what with Ryze being a popular top lane pick and Lulu and Soraka rising to great solo-lane status prior to their nerfs.

You may be focusing on Cassiopeia , but DPS mages like Ryze and Swain are definitely not squishy. Even Lissandra , who has squishy base stats, has several tools to avoid damage and evade her enemies.

It's also worth noting that her ult's damage applies in the same way to every affected enemy, regardless of who is her primary target. While I agree that she may need a bit more survivability, even now she can stay untargetable for up to 5 seconds with the right items. In a teamfight, this will usually mean at least one or two champions died already. If your team is giving the other team the opportunity to murder you after all that time (and has no other target that needs to be focused first), then the issue may lie with your team being weak, rather than Lissandra not having all the tools necessarily to escape from her initiate. Lissandra is extremely team-dependent, particularly as she's focused on locking down targets for her team to pick off, so if your team isn't doing well, you're not going to be doing so hot either.

DreamingOf Peace1 votes

Honestly Lissandra is in a decent spot what she needs is that reworked passive to give her some defense. Her passive is trash. Or maybe have her Q slow all targets hit and not just the first. Honestly the passive needs to be reworked I think that's the most important thing, the only one with a worst passive is probably ashe.

Canastus2 votes

She's weak -and- squishy, that's one fatal combination. She definitely needs some defense buffs or she'll remain irrelevant in a meta where burst-damage and sheer mobility rule above everything. And the only way to counter those things is by having a thick skin.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Canastus

@Riot - Regarding your philosophy for reworks.
Gameplay244 comments
195
votes
@Riot - There's something extremely wrong with Cassiopeia.
Gameplay274 comments
190
votes
@Riot - Aren't you forgetting about someone?
Gameplay181 comments
146
votes
Cass "celebrating" 1600 days without a skin
Memes & Games71 comments
146
votes
@Riot, when will you finally listen to Cassiopeia's playerbase?
Gameplay231 comments
140
votes
@Riot, care to explain why you've entirely abandoned Cassiopeia in 4.18?
Gameplay168 comments
124
votes