So apparently Poppy's old ult was "toxic"

Cloud273·Dec 25, 2015·3 votes·5,724 views

But Tryndamere is still allowed to be invincible for 5 seconds. And his ult is on a much shorter cooldown than Poppy's ever was. So who is the real "toxic" champ here?

45 Comments

IcyPepperDec 25, 201512 votes

... You know, if you're going to use Poppy's old ult as an example, you need to understand why it was toxic.

It wasn't because she couldn't die, otherwise you'd be talking about Kayle, Zilean, Kindred, and whoever else.

It was because of the cc immunity. Poppy could dive someone and their team would not be able to do anything to affect Poppy. That's why it was toxic, it had little to do with not dying like Tryndamere can. But does it matter? Are you going to acknowledge what I said, or are you going to cling to confirmation bias and ignore everyone with a differing opinion (and downvote them, yeah I saw that on the other guy) and only respond to people who agree with you? I've seen that before, and I'm tired of it, so I really hope that you're actually interested in a discussion rather than just whining about a champion you don't like. If you're truly being honest about this comparison, however, I'm just saying Poppy's old ult was a little more than "not dying" like Tryndamere. I mean, at least you can stun Tryndamere during his ultimate and keep him off your carries. Old Poppy did not give you that chance, hence why she was toxic.

Cloud273Dec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

... You know, if you're going to use Poppy's old ult as an example, you need to understand why it was toxic.

It wasn't because she couldn't die, otherwise you'd be talking about Kayle, Zilean, Kindred, and whoever else.

It was because of the cc immunity. Poppy could dive someone and their team would not be able to do anything to affect Poppy. That's why it was toxic, it had little to do with not dying like Tryndamere can. But does it matter? Are you going to acknowledge what I said, or are you going to cling to confirmation bias and ignore everyone with a differing opinion (and downvote them, yeah I saw that on the other guy) and only respond to people who agree with you? I've seen that before, and I'm tired of it, so I really hope that you're actually interested in a discussion rather than just whining about a champion you don't like. If you're truly being honest about this comparison, however, I'm just saying Poppy's old ult was a little more than "not dying" like Tryndamere. I mean, at least you can stun Tryndamere during his ultimate and keep him off your carries. Old Poppy did not give you that chance, hence why she was toxic.

You know, Poppy didn't get free crit chance. And her ult had like a 3 minute cooldown (I forget exactly how long, but it was REALLY long). So considering the long cooldown, I think it's power was justified. Her damage was also limited by her 'q' and 'e' cooldowns. Last time I checked, auto attacks don't have cooldowns. Poppy's damage output was considerably less than Tryndamere's (except when she ulted). She deserved to have a crazy strong ult if she has to wait 3 minutes to use it.

IcyPepperDec 25, 20158 votes

rubs temples

My god you can't compare champions just like that. You need to consider a lot more factors than that.

Look, here's some context. Poppy's ultimate has a long ass cooldown not to justify her power, but it was one of many things to keep her from being pick and ban (and if she ever became p/b, Riot promised to nerf her). Also, since you want to bring up Tryndamere's passive that is not his ultimate, his "free" crit is his passive, and it's just as free as Poppy's damage mitigation. The combination of Poppy's ultimate and her passive made her some bastardization of an assassin and a tank, more so than a bruiser if her kit was ever tuned to "viable" levels. And if you're a fan of using the term "free," you could equate Poppy's ultimate to "free" 100% tenacity and resistance to four out of five enemies. All Tryndamere had going was the "not dying" part and his passive, he could still be cc'd and he could still be damaged. You could ignite him to cut his healing and ensure he died after the ult ran out, and slow/stun him to make him waste it. Poppy's ult, however, could not be played around like that.

But anyway, this thread was about his ultimate. Bottom line is, Poppy's ultimate was considered several times more bullshit than Tryndamere's, and you had many more ways to play around his over her's. If you want to complain about the rest of the kit, there's no skirting around the numerous issues Poppy's old kit had. But, honestly, I'm getting a vibe that you just hate Tryndamere. Comparing him to Poppy is like comparing apples to oranges, so if you want to complain about Tryndamere I suggest you focus on him and cut Poppy out of the equation because it's not making any sense.

And before you ask, yes autoattacks "technically" have a cooldown measured through attack speed. You have to build attack speed to attack more, just like you have to build cooldown reduction to cast more often. Poppy's passive basically gave her "free" damage mitigation with no cooldown whatsoever.

EndlessSorcererDec 25, 20154 votes

Well said.

The OP will probably ignore you (they seem like the type to ignore anything that disagrees with them without proper consideration or comprehension), but your explanation was both accurate and thorough.

IcyPepperDec 25, 20151 votes

Honestly, I hope he understands my point and makes a new thread solely about Tryndamere, even if he ignores my response.

Cloud273Dec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I hope he understands my point and makes a new thread solely about Tryndamere, even if he ignores my response.

It was getting pretty late last night. As much as I love to debate this kind of stuff, I wasn't ignoring you. Just got tired.

Anyways, I'm not denying that Poppy's old ult was toxic. It was very difficult to deal with her when it came up. But Tryndamere's ult is equally annoying, and he got it much more often. And his ult would still go off, even if you hard CC'd him (like with a Malzahar ult or something).

IcyPepperDec 25, 20151 votes

It happens, man.

And yeah, it's fine to find a champion annoying. Tryndamere has an older kit anyway, and has been a pest for awhile. But he and old Poppy just plain had different problems.

Seriously, go make a thread specifically about Tryndamere. Have a conversation about him, maybe make an anecdote about other champions (for instance, instead of saying Poppy's ult was toxic and therefore Tryndamere's ult is toxic, try saying that Tryndamere's ult is toxic by itself and that Riot should fix him like they fixed Poppy without a complete side-by-side comparison) rather than using it as a complete basis for your argument. I recommend using Yasuo as an anecdote as well, since he has a crit passive and that sucks up the power budget a bit. You can also use champions you deem successful to show that certain mechanics just need tweaking on the guy, rather than just failed and/or reworked champions.

Tryndamere has problems that reworked champions had, but they aren't problems because the other champions got reworked. Or something like that. I had a metaphor here, but I lost it.

Eh, whatever.

But yeah, seriously I don't think anyone's going to mind if you try again. There's plenty of people who just honestly want him reworked into a healthy champion (including me, tbh), so try reaching out to them instead of making it about old Poppy as well.

KoldheartedjspDec 25, 20152 votes

tryns "Free crit chance" comes at a huge price, and that's having 3 very subpar abilities

Tryn also doesn't have a passive that greatly reduces all incoming damage

Sona PingDec 25, 20152 votes

You got that backwards; having subpar abilities is the price he pays for his ult, not his passive.

VexfulDec 25, 20157 votes

It was "toxic" because it also ignored CC from anyone who WASN'T targeted. Target the Sona support and dive the carry. If Sona doesn't ult well guess who just got a free dive in. Tryn can be stunned and CC'd still.

BeatzBoyFTWDec 25, 20157 votes

Tryndamere Can be CC'ed during ult.

Poppy (old) Well, you're fked no matter what you do.

ZarkkastDec 25, 20156 votes

Are you honestly comparing the two?

insaiyanbaccaDec 25, 20156 votes

can;t you still cc trynd during his ult?

LadyRenlyDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

can;t you still cc trynd during his ult?

yes, you can cc trynd during his ult, but he cannot be locked out from activating his ult under cc

insaiyanbaccaDec 25, 20151 votes

yeah but at least he can still be cc'd during his ult. and if you ignite him 2-3 seconds through his ult he won't survive.

kaltenashesDec 25, 20153 votes

invulnerable to CC from anyone else that wanst being ulted and it lasted 8 seconds, 8 seconds is the average time of a team fight stated by riot on releasing item 3053 on which the shield also last 8 seconds.... so in other words she was invincible for a whole team fight

trynda's ult can be avoided by bursting him down or you can delay his rampage, most of it, by using hard cc

thnx goddesses for the community being gentle and never abusing the hidden op she was

LF AnnieDec 25, 20151 votes

it wasnt that no one abused her, but riot had made her defined weakness of a REALLY shitty early game to make up for her late game nightmare.

tell me, how much cs could you realistically get on poppy in lane vs anyone. ANYONE. her only moments of true power were when her ult was up.

kaltenashesDec 25, 20151 votes

ohhh, i didnt play with her, only customs game, i tried to get her in jungle, didnt work that well

RogueWillDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

invulnerable to CC from anyone else that wanst being ulted and it lasted 8 seconds, 8 seconds is the average time of a team fight stated by riot on releasing on which the shield also last 8 seconds.... so in other words she was invincible for a whole team fight

trynda's ult can be avoided by bursting him down or you can delay his rampage, most of it, by using hard cc

thnx goddesses for the community being gentle and never abusing the hidden op she was

Welll the problem was getting to that point. Poppy woudl get stomped on lane but pretty much everyone to compensate for that OP teamfigthng so you often will reach teamfight quite behind and without the needed items to burst someone down.

MiraweaveDec 25, 20153 votes

Poppy was immune to CC.

Old Poppy's ult was actually the single worst idea riot has ever had.

StrawberrycocoaDec 25, 20153 votes

Tryndamere can't stun you and deal %HP damage like old Poppy could. Also, you can stun Tryn while he's ulted and negate the effect almost entirely.

Asayake 5150glowDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tryndamere can't stun you and deal %HP damage like old Poppy could. Also, you can stun Tryn while he's ulted and negate the effect almost entirely.

You mean how new Poppy still can?

137434Dec 25, 20151 votes

But new Poppy can't do that while completely immune to all damage and cc from 4/5ths of your team.

Asayake 5150glowDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But new Poppy can't do that while completely immune to all damage and cc from 4/5ths of your team.

I agree. I agree.

AbyssphereDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Tryndamere can't stun you and deal %HP damage like old Poppy could. Also, you can stun Tryn while he's ulted and negate the effect almost entirely.

What has old Poppy doing %HP damage got to do with anything? She would have been every bit as toxic if she didn't have %HP damage in her kit

PIMPSMOOTHDec 25, 20151 votes

Don't roll a Sona support against a Poppy, problem solved.

LF AnnieDec 25, 20151 votes

dont roll sona support at all, problem solved.

DreadlocksDec 25, 20151 votes

Why do ppl always talk about Trynd's ult, but never Kayles? Its nearly the same frustrating thing except she can cast it on an ally.

Cloud273Dec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Why do ppl always talk about Trynd's ult, but never Kayles? Its nearly the same frustrating thing except she can cast it on an ally.

Because it got nerfed massively over the last few years (along with other parts of her kit). And her ult only lasts 2 seconds. Compared to other "can't die" ults.

137434Dec 25, 20151 votes

Kayle's duration is shorter and does not make you immune to CC.

EndlessSorcererDec 25, 20151 votes

Tryndamere's ultimate, like Kayle's Ultimate, doesn't make you immune to CC.

137434Dec 25, 20151 votes

True, but the thing that about Tryn's that annoys people is that it can be cast when cc'd, and Tryn is a slipper champion than Kayle (can spin over walls, while Kayle has no mobility except a brief ms boost with her heal) which is frustrating when you are close to killing him.

StealWolverineDec 25, 20152 votes

Kayle can do damage from range heal allies, and her ult prevents all damage. Its very easy for trynd to lose a good bit of that 5 seconds by ulting early

QuephaDec 25, 20151 votes

Being cc immune to 4/5 champions was the most important part But being damage immune to 4/5 champions might as well be damage immune to 5/5 because poppy gets to pick which champion can affect her and of course she should easily pick the least threatening target. Not to mention that there was no easy way for the enemy team to figure out who actually could do anything about poppy without everyone blowing their skills on her at once, meaning they still waste 4 cooldowns for every one that lands (and probably the weakest one) when there are still 4 other members on poppy's team that may need some kind of effort to bring down.

LF AnnieDec 25, 20151 votes

idk about you, but i found her target was fairly obvious.

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M61c4191bf255db8b8d293bf60fbfc463o0&w=300&h=201&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

people are acting like old poppy was something anyone could pickup and abuse, but she wasnt.

she had an extremely weak early game, but a very rewarding late game if she could get there.

QuephaDec 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=LF Annie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=X5YMgGUo,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-12-25T16:27:13.770+0000)

idk about you, but i found her target was fairly obvious.

http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.M61c4191bf255db8b8d293bf60fbfc463o0&w=300&h=201&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

people are acting like old poppy was something anyone could pickup and abuse, but she wasnt.

she had an extremely weak early game, but a very rewarding late game if she could get there.

wow a single screenshot involving exactly two champions and zero other spell effects to watch for you sure showed me

LF AnnieDec 25, 20151 votes

wow a single ability has a single effect omg newsflash.

insaiyanbaccaDec 25, 20151 votes

i believe he's referring to poppy in a teamfight, not a 1v1

LF AnnieDec 25, 20151 votes

maybe im just more aware of it being that she was my main chick for half of season 4. but it was still usually a fairly obv ability, one person gets marked, everyone esle ignore poppy for 8 secs or run fast af if she is chasing you.