What if Syndra's orbs only stayed for longer than a second if she hits a unit with it?

WoonStruck·Jan 16, 2017·63 votes·2,348 views

This would reward her for actually landing them instead of the obnoxious "LOL I missed 4 Qs, W, and E and can still kill you because R" moments.

Keep in mind that you could still stack them up via minions, scuttle, monsters, etc.

#This would mostly be a nerf to situations that Syndra shouldn't win but does anyway.

######They should not disappear immediately, as that would ruin W and E orb usage. As I said, this is targeted towards the more obnoxious advantages Syndra can pull out that she absolutely does not deserve.

27 Comments

Overlord ForteJan 17, 201711 votes

The entire purpose of her ultimate and the sphere stacking mechanic is to present a doom clock: you fight Syndra before she's at power, or deal with her at full power. Her ultimate takes two-three times longer, if not more, to reach a viable and threatening capacity. So, being in combat while she misses skill shots is no indication you are free--her ultimate will eventually become a threat. If you somehow do not kill her in that period before it does, then you have to deal with it.

Options for dealing with it varies between itemization, kits, and the stage of the game, so that's a contextual argument.

It's important to note one of the intended features of her ultimate is countering mobility and people with skill shot outplaying kits. They are already incredibly fast, and if they somehow do not kill her before she comes online, then they failed and she succeeded. Yes, this includes if Syndra Flash+R's, because if she's blowing a 5 minute summoner to kill you, punish her in the next 5 minutes (two-three team fights worth of time, at the least). Offensive flashes are incredibly scary, if not wasteful, for her, especially with any kind of tank/diver that can reach her.

ImpossibleGTJan 17, 20178 votes

Anyone remember when a bunch of Syndra mains came out ahead of her MYMU and explained how it was terrible because it made it too easy to get max spheres for her ult? And then Riot ignored it? And then they had to nerf her because of it?

At some point you'd think Riot would listen to people who might presumably know what they're talking about instead of just bulling ahead with needless updates. Syndra was fine before the update.

TequilaZombieJan 17, 20172 votes

I know the feeling bro Shaco

DarkSunSovereignJan 17, 20171 votes

Syndra main here.

The nerfs were just right imo. If people still find her strong, well, it should be looked into, definitely. But it would be an issue of overpoweredness, not brokenness.

The issue with the 6.9 update was the passive effect for W (W5 from now on for convenience). Essentially, before the update, Syndra worked like this:

Is target in kill range(~80%HP, no MR and no barrier)? If no, poke till they are. If yes, move to number 2.
Q
Q
Is target in stun range/ will they be in the next 3 seconds? If no, go back to n3. If yes, move to n4.
W first sphere quick before it expires.
Q
Have you got crazy amounts of cdr (like, 45%) or 35% and fucking godlike timing? If no, move to n8. If yes, move to n9.
You now have ~3 seconds to pull off a 6 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 1 and start all over.
Q, move to n10.
You now have 0.5 seconds to pull off a 7 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 11.
You now have 1 second to pull off a 6 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 1 and start all over again.

You can clearly see how it works: You ramp up, you blow someone up or not, and you fall back down. You ramp up again, blow someone up or not, and fall back down. You work with windows of opportunity, which as you can see don't last all that much.

This is how Syndra worked after the update:

Have you got W5? If yes, move to n3. If no, move to n2.
Are you a dumbass FotM Syndra player with no skill that still manages to oneshot people because of Syndra being broken? If no, act like before the mage update. If yes, remember to uninstall when you're done playing this match. Meanwhile, farm till you get W5. then move to n3.
Q
Q
Q
WW
Is target in stun range? If yes, move to n8. If no, move to n6.
E
Q
You now have 8 seconds to pull of a 7 spheres ult. If you can't, move to n6.
R
WW 13.~~ Are you shit at Syndra? If no, act normal. If yes, wait for ult to come back up and repeat.~~

The problem here is clear: you press Q a lot, mindlessly spam W5 to reset all the spheres, press R. You ramp up and you never fall back down. This is incredibly toxic for the game, as anyone who has played against Syndra recently knows. Not you mention the HUGE AoE stun you get from those three spheres you can pick up.

Now, after the nerf, Syndra is back to the original play pattern, only you have ~2 seconds longer window of opportunity to pull of ults. I personally find this questionable but one could argue that it's something that makes her stronger/easier without modifying how she plays drastically; it's also easier to balance- just change the numbers on her Q5.

EDIT: MFW People downvoting without bothering to point out why I'm wrong/why they disagree with me. Yay thanks.

ZT XperimentorJan 17, 20171 votes

Yup, told them it'd remove the skill for juggling the number of orbs; but riot did it anyway out of spite, again.

Ulquiorra995Jan 17, 20171 votes

I think all those complainers didn't even take the time to read patch notes. Changes to W fixed majority of her problems: she can no longer cover the entire lane with her stun or hold 3 spheres for easy-mode ultimates. True, 7 sphere ult is still slightly easier to do than before considering you have more than an old split-second window but it still takes preparationa nd has a reasonably short uptime.

The DreamwalkerJan 17, 20176 votes

As far as I know, Syndra can only really delete bot / supp champs late game. Mid is still a battle (if they were early game of course). Top lane can pretty much be Syndra's destroyer. Also, if a Syndra is missing all of her Q's, E's, and W's shouldn't you be able to attack and kill her early on? I mean, I love playing Syndra, but missing any of her powers can lead to a sudden death. Syndra relies heavily on her E for mobility, once that is gone she is very vulnerable to ganks and kills.

I mean, if Syndra is really giving you trouble as a team. Just build some magic immunity items. Top and mid can grab a item 3102 or if mid is more an ad style item 3814 . AD Carries (main role) can just grab the Edge of Night just like the mid lane (trust me, one MF Q can drop an enemy below 50%, sometimes 25%, once it one shot the enemy adc). Also, mid lanes can also nab a pretty useful item 3157 as well as supps. But, supps can really just grab any of those magical items.

Oh, also, you do realizes that Syndra's orbs gain more time as she levels up her Q right? Syndra's ult needs lots of these orbs, if someones can silence, stun, or otherwise waste time to prevent a stack up she has a pretty weak ult. Or, simply avoid her when she is staking up orbs that means she trying for an ult.

The DreamwalkerJan 17, 20175 votes

I looked into Syndra's ult. The total damage that ability can deal (I did the math) is still less than Katarina's and Ziggs' ult. So, if we are to fear any mid laner it should be these twos.

6SfoolJan 17, 20173 votes

It's definitely a lot less than MF ult, too, but those 3 ults can be dodged partially or entirely. Syndra's can't miss. Several times I found myself fighting syndra by scuttle crab (as a fighter/juggernaut) and then the enchanter support walks up to help, only to get legitimately 1-shotted from full health by her ult. That's a free kill just because she had orbs lying around.

SwarovskoJan 17, 20174 votes

People need to realise Syndra isn't the problem. There is just too much damage in this game, that's the real problem.

WoonStruckJan 17, 20172 votes

There may be too much damage in the game; you're not wrong about that.

However, Syndra still gets rewarded even if she misses her entire kit. Its something that should still be changed.

LauchmelderJan 17, 20174 votes

I'm sorry, I won't let this argument count ever.

Why? When I complain about assassins that sometimes do exactly the same (missing half their kit and still pretty much oneshot me) I get the response of: "Buy armor then." What stops me from doing the same on here? Get MR then.

GULAG 4 UJan 17, 20173 votes

As saereg2013 or whatever is the correct username would say:

REVERT THE FUCKING MYMU

Nameless VoiceJan 16, 20172 votes

I was thinking of something similar. It's certainly doesn't seem right that she can miss every single one of her skills and still delete someone with only her R late-game.

I'd even go so far as to say that she should only get full damage from orbs that have hit the ult's target.

Möral SupportJan 16, 20172 votes

I'd even go so far as to say that she should only get full damage from orbs that have hit the ult's target.

Make her abilities apply a debuff on the enemy that makes the enemy weaker to her ultimate. (like if she hits Q W and E then the target takes 2.25x the damage from ult.) Then you could just nerf her ult damage to a lot less than it is now.

WoonStruckJan 16, 20179 votes

But what's the purpose of trying to make an AoE champion single-target-focused just for the sake of her ult?

Might as well rework her at that point or she'd just be an inferior Leblanc.

5000000000000000Jan 17, 20171 votes

The rest of her kit doesn't need to be touched, right? Just the ultimate damage.

Cryo00Jan 17, 20171 votes

If I walk up to Q the squishies late game, I am asking to die. It doesn't have as long of a range as you think it does.

TequilaZombieJan 17, 20171 votes

Stack it up on the frontliners. Kinda like Darius does. 5 stacks on the frontliner and then go ham on the ADC and Mage.

Cryo00Jan 17, 20172 votes

Its harder to that post nerf now. Although I don't mind if they actually implemented that. The current Q passive is really boring for me. I'll take something a more interesting.

DarkSunSovereignJan 17, 20172 votes

Syndra main here.

The nerfs were just right imo. If people still find her strong, well, it should be looked into, definitely. But it would be an issue of overpoweredness, not brokenness.

The issue with the 6.9 update was the passive effect for W (W5 from now on for convenience). Essentially, before the update, Syndra worked like this:

Is target in kill range(~80%HP, no MR and no barrier)? If no, poke till they are. If yes, move to number 2.
Q
Q
Is target in stun range/ will they be in the next 3 seconds? If no, go back to n3. If yes, move to n4.
W first sphere quick before it expires.
Q
Have you got crazy amounts of cdr (like, 45%) or 35% and fucking godlike timing? If no, move to n8. If yes, move to n9.
You now have ~3 seconds to pull off a 6 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 1 and start all over.
Q, move to n10.
You now have 0.5 seconds to pull off a 7 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 11.
You now have 1 second to pull off a 6 spheres ult. If you can't, move to number 1 and start all over again.

This is how Syndra worked after the update:

Have you got W5? If yes, move to n3. If no, move to n2.
Are you a dumbass FotM Syndra player with no skill that still manages to oneshot people because of Syndra being broken? If no, act like before the mage update. If yes, remember to uninstall when you're done playing this match. Meanwhile, farm till you get W5. then move to n3.
Q
Q
Q
WW
Is target in stun range? If yes, move to n8. If no, move to n6.
E
Q
You now have 8 seconds to pull of a 7 spheres ult. If you can't, move to n6.
R
WW 13.~~ Are you shit at Syndra? If no, act normal. If yes, wait for ult to come back up and repeat.~~

#TL;DR and Conclusion: The problem here is clear: you press Q a lot, mindlessly spam W5 to reset all the spheres, press R. You ramp up and you never fall back down. This is incredibly toxic for the game, as anyone who has played against Syndra recently knows. Not you mention the HUGE AoE stun you get from those three spheres you can pick up.

KuboxJan 17, 20171 votes

I'd rather they just re-balance her damage across all abilities. Her damage output is technically fine, it just seems that a lot of it is front-loaded unto her ult. Remove damage off her ult and spread it elsewhere, that way she won't kill peeps even after missing all abilities but will not become absolutely useless against mobility-heavy champions.

Pierce The VealJan 17, 20171 votes

Better yet: buff range, damage, and cooldown on ultimate, but make it a skill shot that aims at your cursor. Each ball is a skillshot, they get launched machine gun style as you hold down R. Does not cancel movement commands.

Bam, syndra can keep her uniqueness, and actually have to land shit to kill you.

TequilaZombieJan 17, 20171 votes

So a darker Lucian ?

Pierce The VealJan 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So a darker ?

Better yet, without limiting it to direction. Also, don't let it hit minions. Bam.

6SfoolJan 17, 20171 votes

I like it. A lot. Most of the time she whiffs an orb anyway is when she's just focusing on her counts.

Captain AishiJan 17, 20171 votes

that's an awful idea because it would completely remove her ability to create and control zones, especially near neutral objectives (to me at least positional play is the most fun part of playing her)

it would also make it impossible for her to set up an ambush for someone who would facecheck her in a bush

and besides, if she misses all her basic abilities and hits you for a lot of damage on her ult: 1- there was a long set-up time where she stacked her orbs on the map that you didn't take advantage of to kill or flee from her 2- it means her ultimate ability is the only one in the game that costs upwards of 500 mana to use (4x80 for the Qs, 100 for w and 100 for ult)