Do we all really know what real Toxicity or Lack of Counterplay is?

Evenstar··8 votes·1,409 views

It seems like everything is toxic to everyone these days. Saw a few posts calling for Illaoi to be nerfed to oblivion for the simple fact that her E exists, some posts calling for Sona to be reworked/nerfed/changed because her tools are supposedly too toxic. Do we all know what real toxicity is, or have the seasons changed so much that the meaning of toxicity has varied too?

And then the question of lack of counterplay comes in to picture, everyone is saying X champion lacks windows of opportunity to be countered, and thus deems them too toxic. Sona can poke, sustain and burst, so people equate her to having no counterplay and toxic? Illaoi has an E, and major AD ratios on her tentacles, which are really her entire source of damage, she builds tanky and gets so much damage so she's toxic?

Just not long ago, toxicity meant that one ability or state that champions could have abused to change the outcome of the game, Yasuo's Windwall and Ekko's Chronobreak are examples of what I consider toxic. It's a get out of jail free card and causes frustration among players. But right now, we've got players complaining about perfectly balanced or for most parts, perfectly countered champions.

Sona doing too much damage/healing for you? Well, guess what, she dies to all-ins. Illaoi doing too much damage and tankiness and you're under E's spell? Well, you realize you can walk out of her leash, kill 3 tentacles for 15 golds and break it right?

Orianna scaling too well in to late game because of her passive and kit? someone complains she's overly strong and toxic. Annie is toxic because she has a very binary burst and basic play patterns with a simple stun? She's toxic. Malphite's toxic because his R is a guaranteed AoE knockup? Well, it's dodgeable. Riven is toxic because she's got nigh endless mobility and is allowed to animation cancel? She's toxic again. Anivia having a revival passive, so she's toxic.

But have you ever wondered, half of the champions mentioned can be easily countered with the right playstyle and prudence? If champions like the current Sona and Illaoi are the current definition of toxic and lacking counterplay, you guys ought to see Kassadin before he got gutted like hell. That is one champion you can't keep down no matter how hard you try, just like Yasuo.

Yet, on the boards, we have people complaining Brand and Lux are TOXIC because of their W/E width, Sona being too toxic even though she has to be active with her abilities now. Yet we don't see something like Kindred or Kayle's R being complained. Are we that bad at learning to play against certain champions, so we say X and Y champions are toxic?

19 Comments

Sasogwa3 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Everyone has his own concept of toxicity really. Personnally I hardly find point & click champions toxic, because they have very simple patterns, and if they're about burst well take enough defense to survive, or QSS the stun, whatever. And I find kite-based champions Ahri Vayne Kalista cancer because I hate being kited to oblivion by a supposed carry that does the job of peeling himself without even needing a frontline and I hate not being able to reach them. I hate %health true damage because I build defensive items for literally nothing.

But overall, everything is toxic. A champion's strength is toxic, because it's annoying that he's better than you at something and can abuse it in some way if he plays it properly. Toxicity is a word that doesn't have much meaning anymore.

Evenstar2 votes

Precisely my point, it seems like anything regarding toxicity complaint is based on who can do something better, rather than whose actually toxic. It really lacks a meaning in league anymore and it is just randomly used.

Troiann2 votes

"Only what I consider toxic is toxic, everything other people call toxic is bullshit because I don't consider it to be toxic."

Your argument in a nutshell.

WoonStruck6 votes

{quoted}

"Only what I consider toxic is toxic, everything other people call toxic is bullshit because I don't consider it to be toxic."

Your argument in a nutshell.

This game is toxic.

GunThorvald1 votes

We live in a butthurt society. Where words hurt. Remember? Childeren cant be spanked. Fights don't break out at schools or you get suspended. Its all a mental game now. Till someone shoots up a school then the media is all over it!

GunThorvald1 votes

same concept here. People aren't suppose to get mad i guess. Because it might emotionally hurt someone haha. Wait till they are introduced to society and turning 18. Their feelings wont exist at all. :)

Evenstar1 votes

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I just realized the demographics of this game still caters to teenagers to young adults, I forgot that I'm already half past the young adults age range. I suppose some people complaining are underage or not fully adults yet.

GunThorvald1 votes

hence forth you have the reason everything is "Toxic" today. Every little thing can be scrutinized to the nth degree.

Hayaishi22 votes

Sona lacks counterplay, All ining doesn't depend on me, i need to have my support actually try it, what do i do if he doesn't want to all in, what if he misses his skillshot engage? I eat free poke that can't be dodged, and requires little effort to use.

Now Yasuo? He is literally gank fodder, who doesn't do damage after level 2 in lane, yeah let's complain about him because he can block abilities despite being absolutely weak at everything else unless fed or having a team comp centered around him.

Weathered1 votes

TahmKench Sona ulted your adc? Eat them. Sona poked you? Grey health. Sona healed? Tongue poke. Or even just buy item 3140 as adc.

Weathered2 votes

I made a comment earlier trying to explain how nothing right now is truly "SUPER OP" and it got downvoted to hell.

Yes I realize Mundo is powerful. Yes I realize that Trundle is powerful. But if you itemize and coordinate right, nothing is overpowered because they have weaknesses. The reason people complain is because some champions are toxic in lower ELO because they thrive on it. Katarina, Amumu, Malphite, etc are just good picks simply because they either aren't extremely skill intensive or because they do well when the other team is arguing.

DevlinCrow1 votes

For me its things that are a bit unfair and do nothing but provide a cheap advantage for one player and a lot of anger for the other, such as..

  • Fizz's E's cooldown
  • Yasuo's windwall
  • Thresh hook hitbox (hitting when it was clearly no where near)
  • Ekko ult
Chaotic Reks1 votes

Aatrox Ahri Akali Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie Ashe Azir Bard Blitzcrank Brand Braum Caitlyn Cassiopeia Chogath Corki Darius Diana DrMundo Draven Ekko Elise Evelynn Ezreal Fiddlesticks Fiora Fizz Galio Gangplank Garen Gnar Gragas Graves Hecarim Heimerdinger Illaoi Irelia Janna JarvanIV Jax Jayce Jinx Kalista Karma Karthus Kassadin Katarina Kayle Kennen Kindred KogMaw Leblanc LeeSin Leona Lissandra Lucian Lulu Lux Malphite Malzahar Maokai MasterYi MissFortune Mordekaiser Morgana Nami Nasus Nautilus Nidalee Nocturne Nunu Olaf Orianna Pantheon Poppy Quinn Rammus RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Rumble Ryze Sejuani Shaco Shyvana Singed Sion Sivir Skarner Sona Soraka Swain Syndra TahmKench Talon Taric Teemo Thresh Tristana Trundle Warwick MonkeyKing Xerath XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac Zed Ziggs Zilean Zyra

ChaosThief1 votes

I see two illaoi.

Has the salt gotten to her here, too?

Chaotic Reks1 votes

lol whoops. i don't mind her, i just don't like her E

Slamurai Jack1 votes

{quoted}

But have you ever wondered, half of the champions mentioned can be easily countered with the right playstyle and prudence? If champions like the current Sona and Illaoi are the current definition of toxic and lacking counterplay, you guys ought to see Kassadin before he got gutted like hell. That is one champion you can't keep down no matter how hard you try, just like Yasuo.

Fucking LOL. Yasuo impossible to keep down? Illaoi lacks counterplay? What garbage elo do you play in where Illaoi of all champions lacks counterplay and Yasuo of all champions is impossible to shut down?

Evenstar1 votes

Did you read all of it, out of curiosity, or you're handpicked a few things to talk on?

Slamurai Jack1 votes

No, I read the whole thing, as insipid as it was. You're right, we do have players constantly complaining about perfectly balanced and perfectly counterable champions. And the champion that applies to the most is Yasuo. The amount of QQ he receives is absurdly over the top and almost completely unwarranted. Yasuo has no counterplay? Wind wall is a toxic ability? It's impossible to keep Yasuo down? Give me a fucking break. "Every champion has weaknesses and counterplay. Except for Yasuo. Fuck that broken piece of shit."

Nagoh Shan1 votes

Toxic, unfun, lacks counterplay, unhealthy, these are all phrases I've seen used as the disorderly conduct of game design. There's something that isn't liked in the kit, but a reason isn't articulate-able.

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