Balance Team, here's what you need to stop doing with Karma

Evenstar··20 votes·1,332 views

Supercharging Karma's values I believe the buff may have came from witnessing Karma's performance during LCS 2016. Over the 3 matches that she was picked, she still struggles to make any meaningful impact by herself. The amount of times Karma dies for snaring an opponent is still disappointing and her wave clear is horrible due to the small radius of Q and players were forced to expand mantra just to clear waves using Q.

Bumping up her shield value from .8 to 1.1 will not solve any current issues she has on hand but continue to force her in to use a particular ability over the other. At .8 ratio, Karma is known to have the beefiest shield among any AP casters, there's no needed reason to amp the shield to a 1.1 ratio and provide 50% of shield value to teammates when another meaningful change you can try is to extend the duration of the shield.

A .8 shield will get the job done as efficiently compared to 1.1 shield. All these overloaded values are not a smart way to balance or improve Karma and eventually, it will come to a point where you have to tone down her values and scaling. The boards have been asking for her shield bomb, not an increased shield value.

Outside of that, people find her W provides the lowest benefit to use at the moment, which is what you should be focusing on. And looking in to how you could make Q a bit more efficient in wave clearing.

The TL;DR; supercharging her values will continue to create problems in the long run, Karma is steering off her path greatly. What Karma needs is not supercharged values, but better tools and reliable damage.

29 Comments

Danyul Targaryen8 votes

Preach brother I just want her shieldbomb back it was her most interesting move. I'm sad I wasn't around to play the original karma

IxtaliKing6 votes

Everytime I see her buffs on pbe I die a little inside lol. I wish they'd at least put her shield bomb back on pbe just so people could see how it would be in today's League, I genuinely believe it would solve a few of her problems in one swoop.

Vanjie3 votes

Yep. They are just to lazy to do it. Adjusting her stats seems like a better option and it is totally working out.

IxtaliKing3 votes

It's sad man, I feel really let down by the way they're handling Karma.

Vanjie3 votes

I mean I wanna say they are trying their hardest by giving her this patch update, but it really isn't. They aren't fixing anything really and only accomplishing one thing: pushing her into the support role. She has so many support mechanics but so little AP damage. I hate her passive, W and W+R and E+R.

Kledy McKledFace4 votes

She should get back her dual cast w --> slow an enemy or speed an ally It's the main reason karma mains complained the rework was bad : it was her uniqueness and they removed it.... The only solution Riot gave us for removing this ability was Tahm Kench, but hes a tank not an ap speedy gonzales like karma used to be...

Aeolian Melodies4 votes

{quoted}

She should get back her dual cast w --> slow an enemy or speed an ally It's the main reason karma mains complained the rework was bad : it was her uniqueness and they removed it.... The only solution Riot gave us for removing this ability was Tahm Kench, but hes a tank not an ap speedy gonzales like karma used to be...

Thing is, you do that, you need to remove the speed buff on her E because otherwise her ability to speed teammates up just becomes crazy. And it terms of user experience, even if I liked old Karma and wish Riot had tried something for her before straight up reworking her, her current E is a lot more practical to speed up allies than her old W was, because allies broke the tether all the time, and it's a lot easier to speed buff a whole team with R-E than to try and tag them with the tether.

Voluug132 votes

Remove the speed buff on E which is bad anyways. Old W was several times more useful as a speed up, and it worked as a team speed up too.

Honestly the whole ''people didnt know how Karma played'' was Riot's own fault for taking her out of free week rotation. Now a days there is a lot more burden of knowledge, and really? Old Karma's tether couldn't be the most complicated skill to understand if it was given the same treatment that other similar skills like Thresh's lantern.

Hell Riot added things like Tahm Kench, Kalista and Kindred, which could potentially be used to troll allies, but really arent because most people want to win. They know their players arent idiots.

Adding back Old Karma's W tether couldn't be out of place, and it could work to give E the offensive power it has lost over time. Of course it could need tweaks or removal to the damage.

But currently Riot is shoehorning Karma into the support role, which is completly against the intent of the rework in the first place, since pre-rework Karma was more of a midlaner.

Vanjie2 votes

EXACTLY. Finally someone that can explain things better than me. All they are doing is buffing her stats in an attempt to fix something they have told us they screwed up on. What I would do to her personally:

Q - Widen the hitbox of it but remove the slow. Q+R - Keep the same but maybe make the slow a little stronger fully leveled.

W+R - Remove the stun and healing component completely and allow it to be used on allies that can absorb a small amount of damage. Enemies passing through the tether are slowed.

E - Remove the speed component and increase the AP ratio SLIGHTLY. E+R- Remove the shielding component and give a temporary speed boost . . . with a shield that detonates magic damage with a BALANCED amount of AP. This will not proc her passive either.

I'll take anything though.

Verdade2 votes

Karma is way too simple for numbers she has. If they want to buff her they need to add mechanics and complexity. Her Q and shields are already extremely easy to use and strong at same time

Evenstar1 votes

I think I'll be in touch with SilverSquid later on when he sees the PBE changes and discuss with him about how we can present the problem forward. Current idea is to point out that Karma is getting pushed around in one ability over the other. The changes now are only taking away the diversified options that she's supposed to have, back in to shoving her to pick one ability over the other.

SnugglePuggle942 votes

It seems to me you guys keep pushing her into the support role ever since her awful "mini update" last year. She was a perfect mid lane mage until then, as now she's a "support."

At least suggest to Silver the giving back her shield bomb. That will satisfy many Karma mains and lovers.

Evenstar1 votes

Not sure what gave you the impression that I'm pushing Karma to support. If any, I'm actually one of the players who wants nothing more but the old kit. But that's another topic. The current idea I want to present at the moment is to show that Riot's act of improving Karma backfired, and they're about to push her further away from everything she was uniquely known for.

SnugglePuggle942 votes

Ahem. Buffing her shield. It's like they are emphasizing that she's a "support," which they so rudely pushed her into that role last year. That's why I'm complaining.

Although I do agree with your "improving Karma backfiring" concept though.

Vanjie1 votes

Riot has stated that the rework didn't accomplish the following: give Karma a unique kit, make her fun to play, and give the champion a clear direction. They are aware of the failed rework . . . and removed things that made her unique and interesting. Riot has already stated they are not going to touch her before tanks, juggernauts, and assassins . . . so don't expect anything meaningful until 2017 or even 2018. Riot doesn't care and they don't keep promises.

Evenstar2 votes

One thing at a time Hiemal :). In the meanwhile, I hope this cheers you up, I always watch this after an unsatisfying game with Karma...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-luWRMDICA]

IxtaliKing4 votes

For real, it's a nonsense that they feel they need buff her again rather than considering other options. And even now, they won't talk to us Karma mains. Other people ask for context on the other champ changes and get, we ask about Karma's buffs and are ignored. Typical. I guarantee even with these buffs to RE, RQ will still be her best/go to mantra 80% of the time.

Evenstar4 votes

Current predictions are that RE will now be the preferred spell for her. Previously it was RQ, then between RQ & RE, right now it should push her to RE. It went from shoehorning to diversifying and back to shoehorning again.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Man I'm so done right now :(

Vanjie2 votes

It probably will be. Fans are asking them NOT to add more support stuff to her . . but this is making her entirely about support.

Hupsis1 votes

She's gonna get another look at some point in the future. Riot has stated that Karma is not high on the priority list right now since there are other champions who need attention more. They did say that she lacks distinctiveness.

We'll be most likely getting mage, assassin, tank and diver fighter rework patches before we get the supportive mage patch (which Karma will hopefully be part of).

By buffing the shield Riot is probably trying to make her more distinct from other shielders. Lux could basically shield more than Karma and Janna also has a very strong single target shield (both of these shields being basic abilities and on a relatively short cd compared to Karma's R+E).

Just be patient. She'll get more attention later.

Vanjie2 votes

We've been patient more than any other champion fans. They nerfed, reoworked, then buffed, then admitted to making Karma boring, tells us she is more of a support champion than mage and refuses to include her in the mage update, and promises us that they will look at her after tanks, juggernauts, and assassins. Tanks, juggernauts and assassins were already dealt with . . . . or had some work on. They are going BACK to them after spend an entire year on them already.

This just isn't Karma. Riot does't fox Morde or Ryze either . . . but they spend eight to nine months on Soraka . . . which is really annoying. Riot doesn't care. Whoever they can sell the best in LCS is who they are going to work on. Incompetent tools.

Hupsis1 votes

Ryze is being looked at right now. Expect some changes for him before the mid year mage update.

Karma is in a relatively ok spot compared to some other champions. She's not overbearing or frustrating to play against which means she's not high on the priority list. However Riot wants to define her kit better and they think the best choice is to wait until the support mage patch. Just like you said, they admitted she has a bland (boring) kit. A bland kit also allows her to be in a rather balanced state which again does not increase her rating in the rework priority list.

Karma is not included in the mid year mage update because she's not considered an immobile or dot mage and there were other champions who needed changes first.

I'd expect at least 2 years before we get a bigger Karma update. Sad truth of game industries.

Verdade1 votes

She's way too simple and her numbers are very high for such a simple champion. Adding more power without increasing complexity/mechanics will break her, make her into Yi of AP mages or something like that

Dengeden1 votes

Look no further than this clusterflick Lulu to see why a damage shield is a bad idea.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is, R-E is the only thing Karma does in teamfights. Q and W are for laning phase and they're powerful tools in that regard. Do I think her W should interact more with her other abilities? You betcha. Am I looking forward to Karma screwing over everyone in 6.6? Most maliciously.

Voluug134 votes

Except Lulu doesnt have a damage shield.

She has a shield and damage, but not on the same ability.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is, R-E is the only thing Karma does in teamfights.

Unless you are Top/Jg/Mid Karma, which are all valid roles, specially Midlane since she was designed to be a midlaner an pre-rework she was way better there that in botlane.

Dengeden1 votes

Her ult grants HP and damage, that's effectively the same thing as a damage shield.

Unless you are Top/Jg/Mid Karma

But that's the thing, R-Q (can miss) and R-W (single target, takes time to channel, you'll be vulnerable) are incredibly risky to use in 5v5 situations and you can rarely go wrong with R-E.

Voluug131 votes

A damage shield is shieldbombing. Lulu cant use the shield AND the damage at the same time in one skill.

Then why even go mid/top insteadof support if you are going to use your ult on a shield. Might as well pick something else. Something with damage.

Dengeden1 votes

Lulu's ult gives HP and AoE damage, that's literally the same thing as a damage shield.

Pick Karma for the safe laning phase, as an assassin counter and you can still use R-Q and R-W if it's a small skirmish. Why would I pick something with damage if I want to spam my shield btw?

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